Liverpool FC Forum

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:03 pm

Rafa's dealings in the transfer market have been questionable?...relaying on unproven, average players (like some of the ones i mentioned) if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......aka Robbie fowler, gerrard,carra, and owen all had it at 16yrs old. I honestly think if we did have millons to spend then Rafa would still be looking in the wrong directions when it comes to picking out the right players for LFC.

by **DrPepe** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:43 pm

REDTILLDEAD wrote:if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......

-a 20 year old with a good scoring record condemned to the scrap heap

Comparing records is relatively pointless (apart from showing everyone makes mistakes) - for every dossena or keane rafa has bought, we can match it with a reyes, veron or kezman/swp/ferreira etc etc etc that the other masters of the transfer market have picked up

by **stmichael** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:49 pm

REDTILLDEAD wrote:Robbie fowler, gerrard,carra, and owen all had it at 16yrs old.

Fowler, Gerrard and Owen yes but Carra? Not a chance. Even Liverpool's most loyal supporters would tell you that he was a good honest player for years but nothing special. Rafa took his game up and extra level by converting him to centre half after Houllier played him at fullback. I think even Carragher himself would admit that he was a late developer.

Agree with you on the other three though. Three of the best players I've ever seen in the red shirt. Owen at 18-19 was even better than Rooney is now imo.

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 12:57 pm

DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......

-a 20 year old with a good scoring record condemned to the scrap heap

Comparing records is relatively pointless (apart from showing everyone makes mistakes) - for every dossena or keane rafa has bought, we can match it with a reyes, veron or kezman/swp/ferreira etc etc etc that the other masters of the transfer market have picked up

A 20yr old with 'an average scoring record'....who will never 'hack it ' with the big boys....thats most of the views of honest LFC fans who know that N'gog will never make that grade...i dont see any other clubs raving about his potential? :laugh:

by **DrPepe** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:03 pm

REDTILLDEAD wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......

-a 20 year old with a good scoring record condemned to the scrap heap

Comparing records is relatively pointless (apart from showing everyone makes mistakes) - for every dossena or keane rafa has bought, we can match it with a reyes, veron or kezman/swp/ferreira etc etc etc that the other masters of the transfer market have picked up

A 20yr old with 'an average scoring record'....who will never 'hack it ' with the big boys....thats most of the views of honest LFC fans who know that N'gog will never make that grade...i dont see any other clubs raving about his potential?

if you want him to be a rooney or owen, then i agree it's unlikely

but a youngster who has stepped into premier league goals and scored goals is good news, not a reason to slate him, "honest fan"

by **heimdall** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:11 pm

DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......

-a 20 year old with a good scoring record condemned to the scrap heap

Comparing records is relatively pointless (apart from showing everyone makes mistakes) - for every dossena or keane rafa has bought, we can match it with a reyes, veron or kezman/swp/ferreira etc etc etc that the other masters of the transfer market have picked up

A 20yr old with 'an average scoring record'....who will never 'hack it ' with the big boys....thats most of the views of honest LFC fans who know that N'gog will never make that grade...i dont see any other clubs raving about his potential?

if you want him to be a rooney or owen, then i agree it's unlikely

but a youngster who has stepped into premier league goals and scored goals is good news, not a reason to slate him, "honest fan"

Wash is very average, he wouldn't get anywhere near the bench of any of our competitiors.

What is this good scoring record he's got, do you mean when he comes in aginst demoralised opposition and scores a tap in, big fecking deal, most of us could probably do that. the problem with players like Lucas, Wash, Babel and to a lesser extent even Kuyt is that they don't have the x factor, for lack of a better phrase, which I believe you need at the top level. They have never impressed me, never shown any glimpses of developing into something special. Quite simply they are just not good enough for a team with league aspirations and it is depressing how many starts they get because it either means we have a totally :censored:

squad or a stubborn manager who won't give players with more potential a chance.

by **fivecups** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 1:48 pm

stmichael wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:Robbie fowler, gerrard,carra, and owen all had it at 16yrs old.

Fowler, Gerrard and Owen yes but Carra? Not a chance. Even Liverpool's most loyal supporters would tell you that he was a good honest player for years but nothing special. Rafa took his game up and extra level by converting him to centre half after Houllier played him at fullback. I think even Carragher himself would admit that he was a late developer.

Agree with you on the other three though. Three of the best players I've ever seen in the red shirt. Owen at 18-19 was even better than Rooney is now imo.

I that Carra would take issue with this. He went to Lilleshall, Stevie didn't.

by **DrPepe** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 2:06 pm

heimdall wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......

-a 20 year old with a good scoring record condemned to the scrap heap

Comparing records is relatively pointless (apart from showing everyone makes mistakes) - for every dossena or keane rafa has bought, we can match it with a reyes, veron or kezman/swp/ferreira etc etc etc that the other masters of the transfer market have picked up

A 20yr old with 'an average scoring record'....who will never 'hack it ' with the big boys....thats most of the views of honest LFC fans who know that N'gog will never make that grade...i dont see any other clubs raving about his potential?

if you want him to be a rooney or owen, then i agree it's unlikely

but a youngster who has stepped into premier league goals and scored goals is good news, not a reason to slate him, "honest fan"

Wash is very average, he wouldn't get anywhere near the bench of any of our competitiors.

What is this good scoring record he's got, do you mean when he comes in aginst demoralised opposition and scores a tap in, big fecking deal, most of us could probably do that. the problem with players like Lucas, Wash, Babel and to a lesser extent even Kuyt is that they don't have the x factor, for lack of a better phrase, which I believe you need at the top level. They have never impressed me, never shown any glimpses of developing into something special. Quite simply they are just not good enough for a team with league aspirations and it is depressing how many starts they get because it either means we have a totally squad or a stubborn manager who won't give players with more potential a chance.

do you really need me to paste up a list of players from league title winning teams that haven't got WC quality (or x factor or strictly come dancing or whatever you have called it) ?

it's all about combination and blend of young/experienced , magic/hardworking - if you expect all our players (or even half) to have this then you need to look around you

Heimdall's team of poster boys doesn't exist :idea

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:44 pm

DrPepe wrote:
heimdall wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:
DrPepe wrote:
REDTILLDEAD wrote:if N'gog has not got it by now then he never will......

-a 20 year old with a good scoring record condemned to the scrap heap

Comparing records is relatively pointless (apart from showing everyone makes mistakes) - for every dossena or keane rafa has bought, we can match it with a reyes, veron or kezman/swp/ferreira etc etc etc that the other masters of the transfer market have picked up

A 20yr old with 'an average scoring record'....who will never 'hack it ' with the big boys....thats most of the views of honest LFC fans who know that N'gog will never make that grade...i dont see any other clubs raving about his potential?

if you want him to be a rooney or owen, then i agree it's unlikely

but a youngster who has stepped into premier league goals and scored goals is good news, not a reason to slate him, "honest fan"

Wash is very average, he wouldn't get anywhere near the bench of any of our competitiors.

What is this good scoring record he's got, do you mean when he comes in aginst demoralised opposition and scores a tap in, big fecking deal, most of us could probably do that. the problem with players like Lucas, Wash, Babel and to a lesser extent even Kuyt is that they don't have the x factor, for lack of a better phrase, which I believe you need at the top level. They have never impressed me, never shown any glimpses of developing into something special. Quite simply they are just not good enough for a team with league aspirations and it is depressing how many starts they get because it either means we have a totally squad or a stubborn manager who won't give players with more potential a chance.

do you really need me to paste up a list of players from league title winning teams that haven't got WC quality (or x factor or strictly come dancing or whatever you have called it) ?

it's all about combination and blend of young/experienced , magic/hardworking - if you expect all our players (or even half) to have this then you need to look around you

Heimdall's team of poster boys doesn't exist

yes i would expect most, or at least half would have this by now?....they have all had long enough to show what"magic/potential" that they might have......and quite frankly they aint got any!. :no

by **GYBS** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:46 pm

Long enough ? how long is long enough ? 2 years ? 1 year ? 3 weeks ? 2 months ? 1 dday ? 3 years ?

lucky arshavin wasnt with us when he was a kid as he didnt break through till 26 - ian wright till 20 odd - ferdinand 20 odd .

So where is this set down deadline of when players must of developed by ?

by **REDTILLDEAD** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:04 pm

GYBS wrote:Long enough ? how long is long enough ? 2 years ? 1 year ? 3 weeks ? 2 months ? 1 dday ? 3 years ?

lucky arshavin wasnt with us when he was a kid as he didnt break through till 26 - ian wright till 20 odd - ferdinand 20 odd .

So where is this set down deadline of when players must of developed by ?

'Long enough'...'Long enough'...how long is a peice of string?.....if you've got it...you've got it.... how long are we supposed to wait for them to reach this potential?....thats why we are in the position we are now, we are carrying too many average players who are not, and will never be good enough to win us titles/cups...we are always relying on the ones that do have the potential and proven class (few that they are) to pull us through, and win important games for us.....put it this way who would you put your faith in tomorrow against burnley......torres, kuyt, gerrard,...........or should we play N'gog,voronin, and lucas?.......i think that proves my point emphatically. :eyebrow

by **Fauxy** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:11 pm

Maybe one day Lucas will become a good player, but it could take years and keeping Lucas on the pitch for years just so he can become a good player is risky business.

Or maybe he will never become a good player, in which case years of playing him, weakening our midfield would have been pointless.

Either way it is very risky to hold out on him just hoping that one day he will become a good player.

by **GYBS** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:13 pm

Proves no point in the slightest really does it - we have a team of mixture of players who are at the top of the game and players who are coming through and learning all the time - there was times when players like gerrard etc where learning and coming through as well . Ngog has come on once and scored a goal - voronin has come on and should of got a penalty and lucas has played better than his more established partner in the midfield . So whats your point that you have proved ? bar voronin all these other average players (in your opinion off course) are still young lads learning and trying to establish themselves .

by **GYBS** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:15 pm

Fauxy wrote:Maybe one day Lucas will become a good player, but it could take years and keeping Lucas on the pitch for years just so he can become a good player is risky business.

Or maybe he will never become a good player, in which case years of playing him, weakening our midfield would have been pointless.

Either way it is very risky to hold out on him just hoping that one day he will become a good player.

who else do we put in there ? so far its masher being the weaker link in the middle

by **Fauxy** » Fri Sep 11, 2009 4:17 pm

Well you said that it takes some players to get to the age of 26 to actually become good ie Arshavin. My point is that its too risky to hold onto Lucas for such an amount of time.

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