Liverpool FC Forum

by **heimdall** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:48 pm

Owzat wrote:
Ciggy wrote:The mancs signed Carrick 18 million quid which was a joke, but they had the last laugh he has won them two leagues and a CL plus other trophys.

You're assuming a cause and effect relationship, plenty of others also won the title with the mancs and so to assume Carrick was the pivotal influence is assuming too much. I believe they signed Vidic in the January window before the 06/07 season and I'd say that contributed heavily to their success, that and Chelsea getting off to a bad start and ditching Josie before embarking on a new manager every other week.

So you wouldn't want Carrick at Liverpool then, forget about all the manc hate stuff for a second. Carrick is a tremendous player and a very good acquisition by whiskeynose.

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:50 pm

Carrick has been shown up plenty of times when playing against a high level of opposition . he wouldnt get into our team

by **Owzat** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:50 pm

s@int wrote:No mate ..... we don't know he can do the job. He is just as big a gamble in my eyes as any of the cheap European names. He has had two decent seasons with Pompey, there is a world of difference between playing for Portsmouth and Liverpool.

For me its similar to when we bought Pennant, when we paid over the odds for a player who had done well with a "small club", but who's attitude and ability couldn't cope with the step up in class.

At £8million he would have been a decent gamble, at £18million it starts to look like the desperation of a compulsive gambler throwing his last big wad on an outsider in the hope it pulls him through.

I'd stick my neck out and compare him to Bellamy who had a good season with Blackburn and then flopped here. They don't even have to be bad players, just the signing and the money and playing for a big club can be a bit too much for some. I think Crouch benefits from being a big(gish) fish in a small pond, and I don't mean heightwise.

For starters the pressure is on the players to perform more consistently and to a higher level. Pompey don't expect to win 27 games a season so gaffes and poor performances are expected come accepted more often. If Crouch doesn't score a goal every other game it doesn't matter so much at Pompey because they are aiming a bit lower and he can relax a bit more.

I guess it is kind of like managers, taking a fat sam or a Mark Hughes from a small club and giving them (relatively) big club money. They aren't used to working on the bigger budgets, they might spend £10m-£17m on a player, but doesn't necessarily mean they'll do a good job or the manager will get them right. Stick fat sam in a deadend club's manager role with no money and low expectations and he'd excel because any losses are written off as being down to a lack of money, while any wins are seen as genius despite no money. That's why the bitters like to pass themselves off as paupers, because then they can say smeegel is doing a great job with limited resources. Well if £15m for Fellaini is "limited resources" then they should try being fans of clubs where £7m is a club record - it may have been the bitters' record about 10 years ago when they bought duncan disorderly.

Point being it is a whole different mindset and set-up, Johnson can get away with not being great because Pompey expect to lose to the 'big four' and probably most other sides, when they play weaker sides then Johnson looks like a world-beater. The only way to test week in, week out quality is playing at a club that expects results week in, week out. Many fail that test.

I think it's a good comparison you make with Pennant, you can with other players like Bellamy, Crouch, and probably a few players we didn't get. Johnson might come good, but the £19.5m I just read quoted on BBC gossip is about twice what I'd really be happy paying for him and even then I question if he's worth that much.

Even if Arbeloa went to Spain for £10m, would anyone say Johnson was twice as good/£9.5m better? I think I'd rather keep the money and spend it towards a LWF where I think most work is needed. Kuyt produced lots of goals and assists last season, so did Torres and Gerrard, but Riera and the assortment that made up the left side were not as productive. Defensively we conceded only 27 goals, that's about three in four games so not that bad. If we could sign a RB who was a brilliant crosser and good defensively then fair enough, but what did Johnson produce for his "good season" ? One or two goals and half a dozen assists maybe? OK less quality to get on the end of it, but enough to suggest he's worth near £20m?!?!?!?

by **ho11ywood1** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:51 pm

heimdall wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Ciggy wrote:The mancs signed Carrick 18 million quid which was a joke, but they had the last laugh he has won them two leagues and a CL plus other trophys.

You're assuming a cause and effect relationship, plenty of others also won the title with the mancs and so to assume Carrick was the pivotal influence is assuming too much. I believe they signed Vidic in the January window before the 06/07 season and I'd say that contributed heavily to their success, that and Chelsea getting off to a bad start and ditching Josie before embarking on a new manager every other week.

So you wouldn't want Carrick at Liverpool then, forget about all the manc hate stuff for a second. Carrick is a tremendous player and a very good acquisition by whiskeynose.

ok einstein

would you like to tell me where Carrick would play bearing in mind we have Masch, Alonso and SG?

If you come back and tell me he is better than any of them then you are simply clueless.....

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:52 pm

Stu is back

by **Lando_Griffin** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:54 pm

GYBS wrote:Carrick has been shown up plenty of times when playing against a high level of opposition . he wouldnt get into our team

He would if we sell Xabi and Mascher...

by **heimdall** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:55 pm

GYBS wrote:Carrick has been shown up plenty of times when playing against a high level of opposition . he wouldnt get into our team

Yeah, curious how he manages to regularly play in a team which has won the prem twice and the Cl once in the last 2 years isn' it? You don't half talk som rubbish GYBS, Carrick had a bad moment against Torres but who doesn't :buttrock

but that aside he is a very very good midfielder and I would almost rather have him in my side than Alonso, becuase Carrick is a great passer of the ball and reader of the game like Alonso but he also has a hell of a shot on him.

by **heimdall** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:56 pm

ho11ywood1 wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Ciggy wrote:The mancs signed Carrick 18 million quid which was a joke, but they had the last laugh he has won them two leagues and a CL plus other trophys.

You're assuming a cause and effect relationship, plenty of others also won the title with the mancs and so to assume Carrick was the pivotal influence is assuming too much. I believe they signed Vidic in the January window before the 06/07 season and I'd say that contributed heavily to their success, that and Chelsea getting off to a bad start and ditching Josie before embarking on a new manager every other week.

So you wouldn't want Carrick at Liverpool then, forget about all the manc hate stuff for a second. Carrick is a tremendous player and a very good acquisition by whiskeynose.

ok einstein

would you like to tell me where Carrick would play bearing in mind we have Masch, Alonso and SG?

If you come back and tell me he is better than any of them then you are simply clueless.....

Good first post WUM

by **ho11ywood1** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:56 pm

for me the full backs have need addressing for some time. Makes me laugh how many people on this site cannot see this as a positive signing.

Is he better than Arby - Yes by a country mile

Will Arby be sold for around 8 mill - I imagine so

Do Portsmouth owe us around 7 Mill - Apparently so

If Rafa had gone out and spent 5 mill on an unknown right back you would still complain......

by **aCe'** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:58 pm

GYBS wrote:and you reckon you would get any off them for 18 mil ? add ten to 15 million on top of any price you reckon they would go for these days due to the fees that Kaka and Ronaldo have gone for - Its a sellers market now so the price gets pushed up .

Fabiano - Why buy another striker who plays up front on his own when we have torres and he sure as hell isnt going to go to a club to be a back up
Di Maria - Ill have proven quality instead of the next hottest prospect please - too many hottest prospects have shown to be duds
Navas - The guy cant leave his toilet at home he gets that badly home sick let alone leave spain
Capal - Sevilla have already turned down over 30 mil from him
Carzola- Out very badly injured at the moment so never going to be signed
Helb - wont come as he already left england once cause he didnt like it here
Mutu - had a good first ten games but then nothing and wouldnt improve us
Maxi - Decent but coming to latter years in career and is no improvement on kuyt
Mancini- All tricks no substance
Ben Arfa - Only moved clubs last season and since then has died away
Snejder- will go for 30 mil
Joaquin - you still stuck in WC2002 ? thats when he last produced .

All those players are great on FM but in real life -debatable . and yes i have watched them a number of times .

that post was laughable at best mate... i bet you'd have figured out an excuse if i had Ronaldo, Messi and Kaka in the list aswell.. Pathetic... theres sensible posts and pure rubbish... yours is the latter...
Whether you agree or not or refuse to acknowledge it or whatever it is.. every name up there is miles ahead of what we got in their position... the forwards would demand we change our setup thats how good they are and the wide players are simply much better than Kuyt and Riera..... pointless arguing with you Gybs... you'd argue that blue isnt blue and then ask about pink...

by **ho11ywood1** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:59 pm

heimdall wrote:
ho11ywood1 wrote:
heimdall wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Ciggy wrote:The mancs signed Carrick 18 million quid which was a joke, but they had the last laugh he has won them two leagues and a CL plus other trophys.

You're assuming a cause and effect relationship, plenty of others also won the title with the mancs and so to assume Carrick was the pivotal influence is assuming too much. I believe they signed Vidic in the January window before the 06/07 season and I'd say that contributed heavily to their success, that and Chelsea getting off to a bad start and ditching Josie before embarking on a new manager every other week.

So you wouldn't want Carrick at Liverpool then, forget about all the manc hate stuff for a second. Carrick is a tremendous player and a very good acquisition by whiskeynose.

ok einstein

would you like to tell me where Carrick would play bearing in mind we have Masch, Alonso and SG?

If you come back and tell me he is better than any of them then you are simply clueless.....

Good first post WUM

well you going to answer the question?

to be fair I have been reading this site for some time and never ever met anyone as negative as you.

by **GYBS** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:59 pm

heimdall wrote:
GYBS wrote:Carrick has been shown up plenty of times when playing against a high level of opposition . he wouldnt get into our team

Yeah, curious how he manages to regularly play in a team which has won the prem twice and the Cl once in the last 2 years isn' it? You don't half talk som rubbish GYBS, Carrick had a bad moment against Torres but who doesn't but that aside he is a very very good midfielder and I would almost rather have him in my side than Alonso, becuase Carrick is a great passer of the ball and reader of the game like Alonso but he also has a hell of a shot on him.

he is right u are clueless - shall we have fletcher and park in the side as well ? just because he plays for man utd doesnt mean he is better than alonso - he got murdered by xavi and iniesta in the cl and has been murdered whenever he has played for england .

by **Owzat** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:00 pm

heimdall wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Ciggy wrote:The mancs signed Carrick 18 million quid which was a joke, but they had the last laugh he has won them two leagues and a CL plus other trophys.

You're assuming a cause and effect relationship, plenty of others also won the title with the mancs and so to assume Carrick was the pivotal influence is assuming too much. I believe they signed Vidic in the January window before the 06/07 season and I'd say that contributed heavily to their success, that and Chelsea getting off to a bad start and ditching Josie before embarking on a new manager every other week.

So you wouldn't want Carrick at Liverpool then, forget about all the manc hate stuff for a second. Carrick is a tremendous player and a very good acquisition by whiskeynose.

Where did I say that? You've filled in a lot of blanks and made a lot of assumptions to think I don't rate Carrick. And you can't have seen me saying the mancs don't use a one-dimensional DM when talking about Mascherano?

I didn't say Carrick wasn't important, I said that linking Carrick to the league titles was assuming a cause and effect relationship ie ignoring other contributory factors. One might suggest Rafa is the reason we haven't won the league yet, that too would be assuming a direct cause and effect relationship without considering other factors. In fact many do subscribe to the theory we won't win the league under Rafa......................... ("many" not referring merely to people on here)

by **heimdall** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:01 pm

aCe' wrote:
GYBS wrote:and you reckon you would get any off them for 18 mil ? add ten to 15 million on top of any price you reckon they would go for these days due to the fees that Kaka and Ronaldo have gone for - Its a sellers market now so the price gets pushed up .

Fabiano - Why buy another striker who plays up front on his own when we have torres and he sure as hell isnt going to go to a club to be a back up
Di Maria - Ill have proven quality instead of the next hottest prospect please - too many hottest prospects have shown to be duds
Navas - The guy cant leave his toilet at home he gets that badly home sick let alone leave spain
Capal - Sevilla have already turned down over 30 mil from him
Carzola- Out very badly injured at the moment so never going to be signed
Helb - wont come as he already left england once cause he didnt like it here
Mutu - had a good first ten games but then nothing and wouldnt improve us
Maxi - Decent but coming to latter years in career and is no improvement on kuyt
Mancini- All tricks no substance
Ben Arfa - Only moved clubs last season and since then has died away
Snejder- will go for 30 mil
Joaquin - you still stuck in WC2002 ? thats when he last produced .

All those players are great on FM but in real life -debatable . and yes i have watched them a number of times .

that post was laughable at best mate... i bet you'd have figured out an excuse if i had Ronaldo, Messi and Kaka in the list aswell.. Pathetic... theres sensible posts and pure rubbish... yours is the latter...
Whether you agree or not or refuse to acknowledge it or whatever it is.. every name up there is miles ahead of what we got in their position... the forwards would demand we change our setup thats how good they are and the wide players are simply much better than Kuyt and Riera..... pointless arguing with you Gybs... you'd argue that blue isnt blue and then ask about pink...

Your valuations are laugable Ace, you are way way off the mark. Prices are super inflated at the moment and you wouldn't come close to signing a lot of those players for the money you mention, although they are all tempting players

by **Effes** » Tue Jun 16, 2009 6:02 pm

aCe' wrote:
Effes wrote:Well, I'm warming to this signing the more I think about it.

When I first heard the price I was choking a bit; and it is a bit much to pay.

However, I think we've got to look at how much we will be laying out for him now,
and how it will impact on our budget for this Summer.

BBC said it was £16M - we were owed £9M by Pompey from the sale of Crouch, everyone wants
to get rid of Dossena - and apparently he's going for £6M - so really this shouldn't impact our
Summer transfer budget.

Now Rafa will look to strengthen elsewhere - he'll be happy with the right side.

This signing could be great for addressing those home draws we had last season; which we all agreed cost us the league.
Our away form was title winning stuff.

I think Rafa can spend big on one more player - happy days.

ill go with that..... for now... good luck Glen lad you're gonna need it

...and...relax

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