Liverpool FC Forum

by **Madmax** » Thu Jan 15, 2009 11:53 pm

andy_g wrote:
sparkycc wrote:I know there are reasons for our 3 main forwards not scoring ie torres injury, kuyt on the wing and keane not playing or lack of form but i find it quite hard to take that there are 4 ex liverpool forwards way above our forwards with only gerrard getting in the top ten ( see below )

Barclays Premier League Top Scorers
Team TOT
Anelka Chelsea 14
Robinho Man City 11
Zaki Wigan 10
Agbonlahor Aston Villa 9
Cisse Sunderland 8
Crouch Portsmouth 8
Gerrard Liverpool 8
Lampard Chelsea 8
Owen Newcastle 8
Ronaldo Man Utd 8
Van Persie Arsenal 8
Adebayor Arsenal 7
Bent Tottenham 7
Defoe Tottenham 7
Ireland Man City 7
this must be addressed if we are to stay in the running for the title, i personally would like us to play keane and torres together till the end of the season, i dont know what has happened recentley but keane seemed to be getting his confidence back he scored a couple but instead of playing he found himself dropped this is not going to help any player.

now there's an intersting bunch of numbers. begs a number of questions for me...

such as - would those strikers have scored as many or more goals in the current liverpool side? if torres had been fit all season where would he be on that list? if keane had played the number of games his price tag warrants where would he be on that list? how the bloody hell has cisse managed 8 goals in half a season in a not particularly good sunderland side?

maybe no pressure

by **peterc1992** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 12:12 am

Madmax wrote:
andy_g wrote:
sparkycc wrote:I know there are reasons for our 3 main forwards not scoring ie torres injury, kuyt on the wing and keane not playing or lack of form but i find it quite hard to take that there are 4 ex liverpool forwards way above our forwards with only gerrard getting in the top ten ( see below )

Barclays Premier League Top Scorers
Team TOT
Anelka Chelsea 14
Robinho Man City 11
Zaki Wigan 10
Agbonlahor Aston Villa 9
Cisse Sunderland 8
Crouch Portsmouth 8
Gerrard Liverpool 8
Lampard Chelsea 8
Owen Newcastle 8
Ronaldo Man Utd 8
Van Persie Arsenal 8
Adebayor Arsenal 7
Bent Tottenham 7
Defoe Tottenham 7
Ireland Man City 7
this must be addressed if we are to stay in the running for the title, i personally would like us to play keane and torres together till the end of the season, i dont know what has happened recentley but keane seemed to be getting his confidence back he scored a couple but instead of playing he found himself dropped this is not going to help any player.

now there's an intersting bunch of numbers. begs a number of questions for me...

such as - would those strikers have scored as many or more goals in the current liverpool side? if torres had been fit all season where would he be on that list? if keane had played the number of games his price tag warrants where would he be on that list? how the bloody hell has cisse managed 8 goals in half a season in a not particularly good sunderland side?

Top Goalscorers dont worry me... our goals have been spread out a good bit between the midfielders,alonso has got a few,riera,benyoung and kuyt have banged in some aswell...along wit hyypia being on unbelievable form....Our goal diff isnt bad at the minute,united are ahead of us by 1 goal so we should tyr our best ot keep up wit them and i think we will with fernando coming back.

You can say Keane needs a fe wmore but some people are calling him a flop and Berba who was signed for 10 mill more than keane has onl scored o1 goal more....Very hard for keane to come in and out of the team aswell,hes being rotated round alot and not being given full games at all..hes not gettin the consistensy he had at spurs where he was a big fish in a small pool...this year he isnt guaranteed hsi spot every week and hes not used to that.Hopeflly it will spur him on int eh secnd half of the season

by **Liverpool442** » Fri Jan 16, 2009 7:40 pm

For me Rafa is slowly killing Keane by messing him about, I am sure if Keane is allowed to build a solid partnership in a two up front sytem with either of our other strikers then he will come good. You don'nt suddenly stop being a quality player which in my opinion he is.

by **devaney** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:30 pm

john craig wrote:Not surprised at all if this story is true. Who wouldn't be pi.ssed off in Keane's position?

Getting dropped for the Newcastle game was a massive kick in the bollox for him after two good performances. Being left on the bench v Stoke was another questionable decision by the manager. There have been other times too.

Granted Keane has not always taken the chances he's been given when started, but he has always been a confidence player, and Benitez has clearly shown none in Keane of late. Keane is part of the problem in that he hasn't adapted well enough to our system, but there are other factors. The absence of Torres has influenced things because Robbie is not a lone striker and has been asked to do a job there several times. Benitez is also part of the problem, because like the Crouch situation, like the Alonso situation, Benitez has poorly man-managed here. He has spent 20 million quid on a player that he can't get the best out of, simple as that.

Keane is not solely to blame for his perceived failure at LFC so far, and neither is Benitez. Those trying to pin all the blame on one or the other are blinkered I'm afraid.

John I find it somewhat amusing that you suggest some supporters are being blinkered in their views of Keane. Personally I feel that you fall into that category more than most.

Some time ago I suggested that Keane has failed to perform when the pressure is really on and I stand by that even more today. I questioned his ability to successfully develop in Italy and many supporters felt my criticism was unfair given his age at the time. I don't think Robbie's problems today are about ability I think they are about handling massive pressure at the very highest level and let's face it he is not on his own. Benayoun, Lucas, Dossena and Babel all come to mind. Robbie also has a highly inflated £20m price tag on his back which is weighing very heavily.

Footballers today have to accept rotation. Robbie in my opinion given many of his performances has been given plenty of opportunities. Just look at the number of games he has started. I accept the confidence argument to an extent but when he was given the chance he didn't take them. If there is an issue with Keane's confidence then he mainly has himself to blame. His mental issues cost us Alonso against Stoke and I am not sure just how expensive that is going to prove to be.

I just hope Rafa has got him so wound up (physically and not mentally) that he puts in a performance against Everton that we can remember for the right reasons.

by **JC_81** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:42 pm

devaney wrote:
john craig wrote:Not surprised at all if this story is true. Who wouldn't be pi.ssed off in Keane's position?

Getting dropped for the Newcastle game was a massive kick in the bollox for him after two good performances. Being left on the bench v Stoke was another questionable decision by the manager. There have been other times too.

Granted Keane has not always taken the chances he's been given when started, but he has always been a confidence player, and Benitez has clearly shown none in Keane of late. Keane is part of the problem in that he hasn't adapted well enough to our system, but there are other factors. The absence of Torres has influenced things because Robbie is not a lone striker and has been asked to do a job there several times. Benitez is also part of the problem, because like the Crouch situation, like the Alonso situation, Benitez has poorly man-managed here. He has spent 20 million quid on a player that he can't get the best out of, simple as that.

Keane is not solely to blame for his perceived failure at LFC so far, and neither is Benitez. Those trying to pin all the blame on one or the other are blinkered I'm afraid.

John I find it somewhat amusing that you suggest some supporters are being blinkered in their views of Keane. Personally I feel that you fall into that category more than most.

Some time ago I suggested that Keane has failed to perform when the pressure is really on and I stand by that even more today. I questioned his ability to successfully develop in Italy and many supporters felt my criticism was unfair given his age at the time. I don't think Robbie's problems today are about ability I think they are about handling massive pressure at the very highest level and let's face it he is not on his own. Benayoun, Lucas, Dossena and Babel all come to mind. Robbie also has a highly inflated £20m price tag on his back which is weighing very heavily.

Footballers today have to accept rotation. Robbie in my opinion given many of his performances has been given plenty of opportunities. Just look at the number of games he has started. I accept the confidence argument to an extent but when he was given the chance he didn't take them. If there is an issue with Keane's confidence then he mainly has himself to blame. His mental issues cost us Alonso against Stoke and I am not sure just how expensive that is going to prove to be.

I just hope Rafa has got him so wound up (physically and not mentally) that he puts in a performance against Everton that we can remember for the right reasons.

'His mental issues cost us Alonso against Stoke'

?

Get a grip mate, what else do you want to blame him for? Let's blame Rafa for having Alonso play that far up the pitch that he was in the position to shoot! Let's blame the defender for a clumsy lunge! Let's blame Alonso for trying to sidefoot the shot rather that put his foot through the ball! Let's blame Torres for being injured therefore forcing Keane to be playing and making the pass to Alonso!

Nah, tell you what, let's just blame Keane because he's the scapegoat for everything at the moment. Tell you what mate, if blaming Keane for getting our own players injured isn't expressing a blinkered view of Keane then I don't know what is. Injuries are part of football, get over it.

by **Toffeehater** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:46 pm

Keane's performing and he gets dropped , i won't blame him if he wants to leave . Rafa's ego has cost us at times and if he carries on like this , we won't win :censored:

all till he's here . I don't understand the logic of leaving your two most expensive goal scorers on the bench and playing one upfront who has been on the wing a large part of last season and this

by **bigmick** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:57 pm

He's been given plenty of chances, but curiously none in the direct aftermath of both occasions this season when he's scored two goals in one match. We've tried many things with Robbie, but we haven't yet tried playing him when he's just scored two goals. I vote that next time he does, we leave him in the team for the next game. It's a bit old fashioned I know and doesn't take into account the fact that football has changed out of all recognition, but it's got to be worth a try I think.

by **JoeTerp** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:12 pm

bigmick wrote:He's been given plenty of chances, but curiously none in the direct aftermath of both occasions this season when he's scored two goals in one match. We've tried many things with Robbie, but we haven't yet tried playing him when he's just scored two goals. I vote that next time he does, we leave him in the team for the next game. It's a bit old fashioned I know and doesn't take into account the fact that football has changed out of all recognition, but it's got to be worth a try I think.

your assuming that he is going to score again :alien:

by **devaney** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:34 pm

john craig wrote:
devaney wrote:
john craig wrote:Not surprised at all if this story is true. Who wouldn't be pi.ssed off in Keane's position?

Getting dropped for the Newcastle game was a massive kick in the bollox for him after two good performances. Being left on the bench v Stoke was another questionable decision by the manager. There have been other times too.

Granted Keane has not always taken the chances he's been given when started, but he has always been a confidence player, and Benitez has clearly shown none in Keane of late. Keane is part of the problem in that he hasn't adapted well enough to our system, but there are other factors. The absence of Torres has influenced things because Robbie is not a lone striker and has been asked to do a job there several times. Benitez is also part of the problem, because like the Crouch situation, like the Alonso situation, Benitez has poorly man-managed here. He has spent 20 million quid on a player that he can't get the best out of, simple as that.

Keane is not solely to blame for his perceived failure at LFC so far, and neither is Benitez. Those trying to pin all the blame on one or the other are blinkered I'm afraid.

John I find it somewhat amusing that you suggest some supporters are being blinkered in their views of Keane. Personally I feel that you fall into that category more than most.

Some time ago I suggested that Keane has failed to perform when the pressure is really on and I stand by that even more today. I questioned his ability to successfully develop in Italy and many supporters felt my criticism was unfair given his age at the time. I don't think Robbie's problems today are about ability I think they are about handling massive pressure at the very highest level and let's face it he is not on his own. Benayoun, Lucas, Dossena and Babel all come to mind. Robbie also has a highly inflated £20m price tag on his back which is weighing very heavily.

Footballers today have to accept rotation. Robbie in my opinion given many of his performances has been given plenty of opportunities. Just look at the number of games he has started. I accept the confidence argument to an extent but when he was given the chance he didn't take them. If there is an issue with Keane's confidence then he mainly has himself to blame. His mental issues cost us Alonso against Stoke and I am not sure just how expensive that is going to prove to be.

I just hope Rafa has got him so wound up (physically and not mentally) that he puts in a performance against Everton that we can remember for the right reasons.

'His mental issues cost us Alonso against Stoke' ?

Get a grip mate, what else do you want to blame him for? Let's blame Rafa for having Alonso play that far up the pitch that he was in the position to shoot! Let's blame the defender for a clumsy lunge! Let's blame Alonso for trying to sidefoot the shot rather that put his foot through the ball! Let's blame Torres for being injured therefore forcing Keane to be playing and making the pass to Alonso!

Nah, tell you what, let's just blame Keane because he's the scapegoat for everything at the moment. Tell you what mate, if blaming Keane for getting our own players injured isn't expressing a blinkered view of Keane then I don't know what is. Injuries are part of football, get over it.

John I mentioned four other players who are struggling with title chasing pressure so I think it is absurd of you to suggest that I am looking for a scapegoat. Face reality, Keane has started in the majority of games this season and he has been very disappointing from a goal scoring point of view and that is not criticism it is a fact. If you cannot see that his failure to take the shot against Preston instead of putting Alonso in a difficult position then I think it is you that needs to get a grip!

If his ego is so incredibly fragile then it is something he needs to get over and very quickly if he is going to be any use to us in the second half of the season.

by **Madmax** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:37 pm

Toffeehater wrote:Keane's performing and he gets dropped , i won't blame him if he wants to leave . Rafa's ego has cost us at times and if he carries on like this , we won't win all till he's here . I don't understand the logic of leaving your two most expensive goal scorers on the bench and playing one upfront who has been on the wing a large part of last season and this

thats what im baffled about. I wonder if keane will start against everton??

by **aCe'** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:39 pm

time for rafa to get his head outta his behind and start playing keane... id absolutely love it if we start losing more games in trying to win them rather than accepting that a draw is the best we can aim for in any given game.. winning 2 and losing 2 is alot better than drawing all 4... we NEED 2 upfront in most cases.. especially when we start with midfielders who do very little in terms of contributing to creative attacking play (the likes of mascherano, kuyt, lucas..etc)..

keane is one of our better attacking players... and even if he doesnt score atleast hes around to contribute to our attacking play which is more than can be said about some of the players who are picked ahead of him more often than not...

keane and torres... key to any success we'll have this season.. we need goals and between them i reckon they have plenty... again... u miss 100% of the shots u dont take .. so dropping him for a midfielder or for kuyt doesnt mean that we'll be doing any better in going forward with him out of the side

by **tonyeh** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:13 pm

Agreed. We need 2 strikers. I don't care if keane misses 20 shots in a game and Torres (or whoever) knocks one in from Keanes attacking movement. It could still be a result.

Keane, for all his misses, has been great at getting into the box. The problem is quite often he's the only one in the feckin box.

The few games Torres and Keane played together at the beginning of the season wasn't too promising, I have to admit (although they were great together in the first Everton derby), but I have little doubt that if Torres hadn't been buggered with his hamstring they would have formed a killer partnership for Liverpool, even though I was somewhat sceptical about buying Keane (for any money) at the beginning of the season.

Hopefully, this new "bedding in" period for the two of them (presuming it's allowed to happen by Rafa) won't be too long and the pair can find scoring boots.

by **Toffeehater** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:16 pm

Good last 2 posts , and agree with most of it

by **JC_81** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:17 pm

devaney wrote:John I mentioned four other players who are struggling with title chasing pressure so I think it is absurd of you to suggest that I am looking for a scapegoat. Face reality, Keane has started in the majority of games this season and he has been very disappointing from a goal scoring point of view and that is not criticism it is a fact. If you cannot see that his failure to take the shot against Preston instead of putting Alonso in a difficult position then I think it is you that needs to get a grip!

If his ego is so incredibly fragile then it is something he needs to get over and very quickly if he is going to be any use to us in the second half of the season.

Just admit that blaming Keane for Alonso's injury is pathetic.

by **devaney** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 3:54 pm

john craig wrote:
devaney wrote:John I mentioned four other players who are struggling with title chasing pressure so I think it is absurd of you to suggest that I am looking for a scapegoat. Face reality, Keane has started in the majority of games this season and he has been very disappointing from a goal scoring point of view and that is not criticism it is a fact. If you cannot see that his failure to take the shot against Preston instead of putting Alonso in a difficult position then I think it is you that needs to get a grip!

If his ego is so incredibly fragile then it is something he needs to get over and very quickly if he is going to be any use to us in the second half of the season.

Just admit that blaming Keane for Alonso's injury is pathetic.

If you don't think that Keane's incredibly fragile ego and unacceptable lack of confidence didn't put Alonso in trouble against Preston then I suggest a visit to Specsavers is required. Keane was a £20m embarrassment against Preston and that was pathetic! You have been banging his drum for a very long time and you have still failed to convince me and many others that Keane is the man for the job. He has been given numerous opportunities and failed to deliver so much so that Rafa has no confidence in him - WHAT A SURPRISE!

John - let's face it we are never going to agree. I do no share your Irish admiration for Robbie Keane and I doubt that I ever will. I really still hope he will come good and prove me wrong but the clock is ticking.

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