Liverpool FC Forum

by **roberto green** » Fri Jan 02, 2009 7:17 pm

s@int wrote:To keep things in perspective re stats.

Alonso THIS SEASON Alonso LAST SEASON
games 20 19
total passes 1507 995
accurate passes 1278 794
shots 33 18
shots on target 10 5

I think while these stats don't PROVE anything, when added to what we have already seen with our own eyes, we can safely say that Alonso is playing better this season.

Shouldn't this be in the Alonso Thread??

by **Sabre** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:13 am

IMHO everyone can see Alonso is playing better and is playing very well.

But IMHO, it's obvious aswell his role is different, with more freedom,so I wouldn't link the notion of playing well with the stats. I would link those stats though to the fact he's playing a more attacking game, as Bigmick demanded of him.
Similarly, if someone comes here to say Mascherano has 0 goals, and 0 assists, I would tell him to keep his stats, as his role this season and the previous ones isn't meant to have assists nor shots on goals.

Stats are nice if you ask them the right questions, you have a big enough sample, and you take into account every variable, which is difficult in football. Otherwise will lead you to wrong conclussions, for instance, selling Alonso last summer.

Of course you cannot dismiss every stat. If you concede 88 goals, then it necessary means you're defending badly. But Alonso having more shots on goals does tell me he's playing in a more attacking role. But that he has come to a better form, is told by the naked eye, not those stats. To use those stats to say Alonso is playing better is wrong, IMHO.

Stu says

Like I said their would be massive variables. The quality of the opposition, the quality of the teams in the air in comparrison to the quality of the comparrison team to name a couple.

Another massive variable is your concentration. If you play man marking concentrated in 5 games, you'll probably do better that if you play zonal defence and your concentration is not at best moment. So those stats would mean nothing to say a system is better than another. Because without concentration any system is cráp

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:44 am

Some people will argue about anything :laugh:

Alonso THIS SEASON Alonso LAST SEASON Alonso the season before last
games 20 19 32
total passes 1507 995 2023 (1264)
accurate passes 1278 794 1635 (1021)
shots 33 18 32 (20)
shots on target 10 5 16 (10)

That season while not playing well still played better than last season imo. He didn't play further forward and yet his stats are still FAR SUPERIOR to last seasons when he played much poorer both imo and most other peoples opinion. () = rationalised figures to 20 games for easier comparison. Yet they are still inferior to this season when in most peoples opinion he has been excellent.

Bu no doubt some people will still argue

by **Quadrophenia** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:53 am

s@int wrote:Some people will argue about anything

Alonso THIS SEASON Alonso LAST SEASON Alonso the season before last
games 20 19 32
total passes 1507 995 2023 (1264)
accurate passes 1278 794 1635 (1021)
shots 33 18 32 (20)
shots on target 10 5 16 (10)

That season while not playing well still played better than last season imo. He didn't play further forward and yet his stats are still FAR SUPERIOR to last seasons when he played much poorer both imo and most other peoples opinion. () = rationalised figures to 20 games for easier comparison. Yet they are still inferior to this season when in most peoples opinion he has been excellent.

Bu no doubt some people will still argue

Some people will argue because this is about zonal marking, not Xabi Alonso mate.

Mind you, some people will argue whatever you post in whatever thread. Some people will argue that water is wet and then just to top it off will go for a bath so they can give themselves a pat on the back, the come back onto the forum and say they were right all along just to start yet another pointless row instead of keeping to the general idea of typing about football.

With that in mind, zonal marking works at times, doesn't work at other times. A bit like porn, sometimes it'll get the job done, other times it fails to make you smile. All sorted. :;):

by **Sabre** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 12:56 am

Yes, people will continue to argue, if they disagree.

And I don't argue Alonso is at a great form and better than last 2 seasons. I'm simply saying those numbers are linked to Alonso's role this season, not his improvement of the game.

If you analyse the same numbers for Mascherano, those numbers will say he's playing badly, as he rarely shoots on goal or scores. I invite you to check it.

So you're trying to state that those stats are linked to Alonso playing better, and I think that if you do that, you're not reading properly those stats, as you're totally ignoring the fact he's playing a different role.

The fact that this different role was demanded by more than one poster, and they were spot on, is also something I'm not arguing.

I'm just making sure you don't use stats as it was Gospel in the future, when you see the numbers back your opinions. Owzat does a lot of that (despite I appreciate he puts the numbers and his work, I don't appreciate he's happy to jump into definite conclussions with many stats).

Sorry for arguing what I disagree, but I'll keep doing it. Not because of ALonso, because I'm against the over-interpretation of stats.

I think I'm entitled to have doubts. After all there's a stat that says Liverpool is the best team in England, but posters saying Rafa does a lot of mistakes ask the right to voice their opinion. I ask the same thing. Well, I don't ask it, I just do it.

A succesful pass is one that ends up in the receiving player and is not intercepted. That's what the stat get. The stat DOES NOT GET the quality of that pass, the danger that created that pass, and whether it was the RIGHT pass, which are the things that naked eye tells us. If anyone is able to argue this last paragraph, please do so.

by **Quadrophenia** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:05 am

Stats mean :censored:

all. In years to come is anybody being of sane mind really going to look that closely as to how many successful passes Alonso made in 07/08? Are they :censored:

. Same way in years to come is anybody going to look to see how many goals we conceeded from a set piece? Are they :censored:

. They're gonna look and say "oh Liverpool conceeded, ah well".

For instantce can anybody tell me how we conceeded to Luton on the 4th of April 1978 (random game, no doubt some :censored:

will try and look clever by pointing out we didn't play Luton or Luton weren't in the first division at the time or something along those lines.) No nobody can, because nobody :censored:

cares about stats and anybody who does needs locking up in a white padded room for a very long time. Either that or a two hour conversation with Jade Goody about statistics, which ever breaks the sad :censored:

first. We conceed goals, whoopty :censored:

do. We conceeded goals under Houllier using man marking, we kept clean sheets under Houllier using man marking. We conceeded goals under Benitez using zonal marking, we kept clean sheets under Benitez using zonal marking. Where's the :censored:

difference? If somebody can rationally explain the difference I'd be more than happy to read it.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:05 am

BUT HE WASN'T PLAYING FURTHER FORWARD TWO SEASONS AGO WAS HE ? Maybe its his unseen work :laugh:

by **Sabre** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:06 am

I'll say again:

A succesful pass is one that ends up in the receiving player and is not intercepted. That's what one of your stats get. The stat DOES NOT GET the quality of that pass, the danger that created that pass, and whether it was the RIGHT pass, which are the things that naked eye tells us. If anyone is able to argue this last paragraph, please do so.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:17 am

Presumably over the course of 20 or so games the difficulty of the passes will average themseves out. As for the right pass or not it hardly matters if the pass is not successful.

by **Sabre** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 1:21 am

Perhaps. The core of disagreement was not about Alonso playing well, but the stats and interpretation. Now there's a good thread about it.

Sorry for topic drifting, to everybody else, anyway.

by **account deleted by request** » Sat Jan 03, 2009 3:02 am

I should have known better than to use Alonso in my example ....mention Alonso and its like a bitch on heat.

by **JoeTerp** » Sun Jan 04, 2009 2:20 am

now I don't know much about anything, but from what I understand about zonal defending from my days playing lacrosse, basketball, and football, the main ways to attack them are to attack the seams and overload, and it all kind of works on the principle of exploiting space and the amount that one man can mark in a period of time. attacking the seams or stretching the zone is to run people on both of the edges of one mans zone, putting him in sort of a no mans land, or worse forcing him to chose one of the players leaving the other uncovered. Another way is to have someone run all the way through a mans zone only to have someone else on a timed run appear in the opposite end of the zone at the time when the original man enters into a new zone and is "passed on" to another defender.

If you have all better players than the other team (in the air) it doesn't really make sense to mark zonally. From what I know about zone defenses in general is that they are designed to not allow any kind of cheap goals they force the other team to beat them with "a bit of magic" from a long way out from goal or a very narrow angle. In footie, I think this forces teams to try headers from difficult angles, have a superman header (that would dominate anyway regardless of the system), try volleys from the edge of the box, or force the corner taker to deliver an inch perfect cross. IMO, you are more likely to say something like, well, there's nothing anybody could have done about that one in a zonal system vs. a man marking system which can either be attributed to the man who gets beat or a lack of communication between him and another defender that allowed for a free header.

Teams that are excellent at scoring from set pieces are going to find a way to score against either system

by **Gerrard30391** » Mon Jan 19, 2009 11:31 pm

I simply can not understand the logic.

Can somebody explain how zonal marking can possibly be better than man marking?

This sort of strategy could/may have catastrophic consequences.

by **Dundalk** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:19 am

Dont start

We have been over this 100000000000000000000000000000000 times

by **Zidane** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 12:22 am

Yeah, go back a page or two there is a thread on this started by Fo Dne with more in depth conversation.

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