Zonal marking... - The discussion thread!

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Postby kazza » Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:09 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years.

Discussion over.

And if you go back to check those old threads you will find most saying how it will never work and we don't have the players for it etc etc. Raffa then brought in Pellegrino and everyone said he was :censored:, useless. Now he is our defensive coach, obviously he was brought in to teach the players how to play the system. Someone should bump those old threads to see the gems some came up with.

Some things never change.
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Postby bigmick » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:43 am

kazza wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years.

Discussion over.

And if you go back to check those old threads you will find most saying how it will never work and we don't have the players for it etc etc. Raffa then brought in Pellegrino and everyone said he was :censored:, useless. Now he is our defensive coach, obviously he was brought in to teach the players how to play the system. Someone should bump those old threads to see the gems some came up with.

Some things never change.

This is getting quite worrying (probably for both of us) as once again I agree with you. Those threads from four or five years ago should be interesting reading, and you're right some things never do change.

I'm probaly talking about rotation in those threads but also saying I agree with the move towards zonal marking (as I did at the time as I recall), while some other posters will be talking about anything and everything as long as it doesn't include football.

I think you should do some digging though, you never know what you might find. You might even find the odd poster who liked the signing of Pelligrino and thought he would come good. Total nonsense as it turned out, but i do remember the odd poster saying it  :) .
Last edited by bigmick on Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Owzat » Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:57 am

Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years

Discussion over.


Assuming you don't let little things like facts and figures spoil a good yarn.

Premiership goals conceded since Rafa took over.

Liverpool

04/05 41
05/06 25
06/07 27
07/08 28
08/09 13

Total goals conceded = 134


Chelsea

04/05 15
05/06 22
06/07 24
07/08 26
08/09 9

Total goals conceded = 96


Man Utd

04/05 26
05/06 34
06/07 27
07/08 22
08/09 10*

Total goals conceded = 119*

*Man Utd have played two less games

Chelsea have conceded less goals in every season since Rafa arrived, there's no way I could even target a significantly good season to try and prove your claim. I could stretch it to Champions League etc but I think we've conceded enough in 3-3 draws in finals, 3-6 and 1-3 to Arsenal in a week, 5-3 over Luton etc I think the odds of proving we've the best defensive record are slimmer than the man behind fat frank in the lunch queue

I guess by the ambiguity of your claim you could argue a team doesn't have to concede the least goals to be the best team defensively - unlucky goals etc. Like the argument that the 'best team lost' or that an average team currently sits top as I've seen claimed here and there - not that the last one makes any sense by definition
Last edited by Owzat on Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby milou » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:09 am

Owzat wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years

Discussion over.


Assuming you don't let little things like facts and figures spoil a good yarn.

Premiership goals conceded since Rafa took over.

Liverpool

04/05 41
05/06 25
06/07 27
07/08 28
08/09 13

Total goals conceded = 134


Chelsea

04/05 15
05/06 22
06/07 24
07/08 26
08/09 9

Total goals conceded = 96


Man Utd

04/05 26
05/06 34
06/07 27
07/08 22
08/09 10*

Total goals conceded = 119*

*Man Utd have played two less games

Chelsea have conceded less goals in every season since Rafa arrived, there's no way I could even target a significantly good season to try and prove your claim. I could stretch it to Champions League etc but I think we've conceded enough in 3-3 draws in finals, 3-6 and 1-3 to Arsenal in a week, 5-3 over Luton etc I think the odds of proving we've the best defensive record are slimmer than the man behind fat frank in the lunch queue

I guess by the ambiguity of your claim you could argue a team doesn't have to concede the least goals to be the best team defensively - unlucky goals etc. Like the argument that the 'best team lost' or that an average team currently sits top as I've seen claimed here and there - not that the last one makes any sense by definition

Is there a way we can have also similar comparisons for "goals conceded through set-pieces"?  :blush:

I think that will be more conclusive and should really settle the argument once and for all...  :)
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Postby kazza » Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:50 am

bigmick wrote:
kazza wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years.

Discussion over.

And if you go back to check those old threads you will find most saying how it will never work and we don't have the players for it etc etc. Raffa then brought in Pellegrino and everyone said he was :censored:, useless. Now he is our defensive coach, obviously he was brought in to teach the players how to play the system. Someone should bump those old threads to see the gems some came up with.

Some things never change.

This is getting quite worrying (probably for both of us) as once again I agree with you. Those threads from four or five years ago should be interesting reading, and you're right some things never do change.

I'm probaly talking about rotation in those threads but also saying I agree with the move towards zonal marking (as I did at the time as I recall), while some other posters will be talking about anything and everything as long as it doesn't include football.

I think you should do some digging though, you never know what you might find. You might even find the odd poster who liked the signing of Pelligrino and thought he would come good. Total nonsense as it turned out, but i do remember the odd poster saying it  :) .

Did actually find a thread called "Zonal defence, will it work?" and you were the author and another by me defending it (those were the good old days when I talked football)  :)  . Most seemed to attack the system in the match threads.
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Postby roberto green » Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:10 pm

Owzat wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years

Discussion over.


Assuming you don't let little things like facts and figures spoil a good yarn.

Premiership goals conceded since Rafa took over.

Liverpool

04/05 41
05/06 25
06/07 27
07/08 28
08/09 13

Total goals conceded = 134


Chelsea

04/05 15
05/06 22
06/07 24
07/08 26
08/09 9

Total goals conceded = 96


Man Utd

04/05 26
05/06 34
06/07 27
07/08 22
08/09 10*

Total goals conceded = 119*

*Man Utd have played two less games

Chelsea have conceded less goals in every season since Rafa arrived, there's no way I could even target a significantly good season to try and prove your claim. I could stretch it to Champions League etc but I think we've conceded enough in 3-3 draws in finals, 3-6 and 1-3 to Arsenal in a week, 5-3 over Luton etc I think the odds of proving we've the best defensive record are slimmer than the man behind fat frank in the lunch queue

I guess by the ambiguity of your claim you could argue a team doesn't have to concede the least goals to be the best team defensively - unlucky goals etc. Like the argument that the 'best team lost' or that an average team currently sits top as I've seen claimed here and there - not that the last one makes any sense by definition

We do keep more clean sheets than anyone and that is a FACT!!!!!

:nod  :nod
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Postby Madmax » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:05 pm

roberto green wrote:
Owzat wrote:
Leonmc0708 wrote:When it was intoriduced it was weird.

It made us the best team defensively for the last few years

Discussion over.


Assuming you don't let little things like facts and figures spoil a good yarn.

Premiership goals conceded since Rafa took over.

Liverpool

04/05 41
05/06 25
06/07 27
07/08 28
08/09 13

Total goals conceded = 134


Chelsea

04/05 15
05/06 22
06/07 24
07/08 26
08/09 9

Total goals conceded = 96


Man Utd

04/05 26
05/06 34
06/07 27
07/08 22
08/09 10*

Total goals conceded = 119*

*Man Utd have played two less games

Chelsea have conceded less goals in every season since Rafa arrived, there's no way I could even target a significantly good season to try and prove your claim. I could stretch it to Champions League etc but I think we've conceded enough in 3-3 draws in finals, 3-6 and 1-3 to Arsenal in a week, 5-3 over Luton etc I think the odds of proving we've the best defensive record are slimmer than the man behind fat frank in the lunch queue

I guess by the ambiguity of your claim you could argue a team doesn't have to concede the least goals to be the best team defensively - unlucky goals etc. Like the argument that the 'best team lost' or that an average team currently sits top as I've seen claimed here and there - not that the last one makes any sense by definition

We do keep more clean sheets than anyone and that is a FACT!!!!!

:nod  :nod

Its the 04/05 season where we conceded far more than mannure and chelsea apart from that the other seasons we have kept it fairly tight. In 04/05 we only had 7 clean sheets. Average game we were conceding a goal and we had many losses.

04/05 - 7 Clean sheets   -  41 Conceded
05/06 - 22 Clean sheets - 25 Conceded
06/07 - 21 Clean sheets - 27 Conceded
07/08 - 18 Clean sheets - 28 Conceded
08/09 - 10 Clean sheets - 13 Conceded


Since rafas first season in charge we have definitely improved in defence. Stats clearly shows work in progress.
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Postby Sabre » Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:25 pm

This thread was much needed. I think zonal defence must be discussed. If we understand zonal defence, we understand how Liverpool plays.


I'm happy to read that everyone around here seems to understand the zonal defence both in set pieces and open play, so this is an excellent opportunity to discuss deeper the zonal defence, as there are aspects of it that I don't recall to have discussed in newkit ever (I'll mention them at the end of the post).

The first thing I've done is to read the thread, and I'll answer briefly two questions raised above

1) No, as much as I'm Rafa truster I can't say he's the father of any new idea: most if not all the concepts Liverpool uses effectively are Arrigo Sacchi's ideas. We're talking about zonal defence as a whole here, which wasn't invented as we know it before Sacchi.

2) Yes, we have evolved in that department.



Second, some opinions.

It seems common knowledge already the most basic concept that in a zonal defence each player takes care of a zone. It's been mentioned aswell that indeed all the zones are not the same, there are dangerous zones, safer zones, and blind zones, last of those are not taken care of. I don't think it's necessary to discuss this bits any further because most posters in newkit have one time or another posted how this works.

If you see how Liverpool plays when we have the ball, you might notice that our defence pattern always attack the ball. You won't see Liverpool taking always care of one dangerous midfielder of a top european club, you'll see how our defensive patterns always focus on the ball.

When your defender is facing the player with the ball, the interesting part of zonal defence occurs behind this player. The players behind the defender closing down, can form a diagonal line of players, or "safe pyramids" or triangles (or wedges, I wonder how is this said in english). When you're able to do this all the time, then you're defending well.

What to do all the time? looking for those safe patterns. What to do to the opposition player? press him without tackling (the important thing is not to be dribbled) to win time, time for what? for getting the defensive patterns. This is where I disagree whoever says Kuyt's way of pressing is not useful, he does a hell of a work so that later Alonso and Mascherano are where they should, and in the propper pattern. Kuyt's work IMHO helps a lot our zonal defence in open play. But that's just my opinion.

Many teams start well doing that zonal defence in Spain, but they don't have a work horse, so in min 50 and later they're caught in unsafe (with the defensive pattern mounted) positions more often and thus are more vulnerable. Liverpool is difficult to score against for any top team of the world because we're able to defend well almost all the 90 minutes, and at great intensity.


Uff, but let's discuss more things later, there are a lot of things to be discussed in this thread, that are undiscussed. And with no stats. I'll answer the Stu's question later aswell.


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Last edited by Sabre on Thu Jan 01, 2009 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:00 pm

s@int wrote:One more question I have :- Why do we bring EVERYONE back at corners and freeckicks? Surely it would be better to leave say 2 players up front if only to ensure that the opposition have to leave players back to watch them.

I understand that it does allow us to break quickly, but when we are infront and grimly hanging on surely we could risk leaving Torres up to ensure they have to leave a few defenders back.

The reason we bring so many players back is as you say, the counter attack which we saw the other day for Keane's goal, Reina, Alonso, Gerrard and Torres are all on that wave length.

Also with the idea that its harder to score from a corner with more bodies in the box.

Using extremes, Can you imagine for example leaving 9 attacking players up on a corner. Say we were playing Chelsea and they could only send one man up, they'd send Terry, Terry one on one with any of our team barring probably Hyypia (and maybe including) will probably win every ball. If the area is crowded though it becomes a much harder task to win the header and therefore score a goal. Also, Torres is good in the air.

Because of the size of our team and the fact we only have one arially domminant player who doesn't play all that much anyway, we need to really bring everyone back. If we had two big strong centre halfs who were excellent in the air and a full back who could more than hold his own aswell then the need woundn't be as great. Personally I like leaving 3 players up the pitch when you've conceeded a corner as I'm a massive fan of counter attacking football and playing at a quick tempo.
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Postby Sabre » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:01 pm

As for stu's questions

What do you like about it?


It's my favourite way to go at this level of football

What don't you like?


It's easier understood than applied. If you reach to coach a third division  team with problems, and you need results in the next weeks, do not go to zonal defending.

What don't you agree with?


That it's the best system for all divisions of football, and that it's easy to implement. I also disagree it's man to man OR zonal, as there are mixed systems in set pieces, ie, all men defending zonally but one, who takes the most dangerous player of the opposition.

Is man to man better?


For some teams and or football levels, yes.

What don't you understand about it?


Many things, I'm still learning about it.
Last edited by Sabre on Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby dawson99 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:04 pm

Zonal marking is a copout. It takes the responsibility away from the player who just ends up saying "I was marking my patch of grass"
there needs to be flexibility and we need certain people marking certain people, not certain patches. Is that how it works? So what if our smallest lad is marking one zone, where the best attacker is...
needs to be mroe man to man in my opinion for what it's worth.
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:14 pm

dawson99 wrote:Zonal marking is a copout. It takes the responsibility away from the player who just ends up saying "I was marking my patch of grass"
there needs to be flexibility and we need certain people marking certain people, not certain patches. Is that how it works? So what if our smallest lad is marking one zone, where the best attacker is...
needs to be mroe man to man in my opinion for what it's worth.

Zonal marking is the marking of a man who enters your zone. It is not the marking of space.
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Postby dawson99 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:16 pm

but what happens when the man runs through your zone, who gets him? Your zone or the zone before or after? That's all I mean, it's a little complex... isn't man to man better? (not if you see our defence record) ok, ta
I guess its a bit more complex than just 'mark that space'
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Postby Fo Dne » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:20 pm

dawson99 wrote:but what happens when the man runs through your zone, who gets him? Your zone or the zone before or after? That's all I mean, it's a little complex... isn't man to man better? (not if you see our defence record) ok, ta
I guess its a bit more complex than just 'mark that space'

I'll say it again, its the marking of a man who enters your zone. If he leaves your zone, you don't follow him into someone elses zone.

Exactly the same as open play.

Kuyt does do alot of headless chasing. Mascherano doesn't. Its about putting pressure on the ball or ball players in the right areas. Its about communication, passing runners and players on. Knowing when to take responsibility etc etc.

Most players at the very top level understand all that very well. Infact, players at nearly all levels understand that.
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Postby dawson99 » Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:23 pm

So you stick with the zone, not the man?
It must work, as we have a great record, but it does seem complex
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