Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ace Ventura** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:47 am

I actually dont think he is playing anywhere near as poorly as people are making out.
I also think he has suffered alot with Torres being out, he IS NOT a lone striker and he is doing his best for the team.
I wouldnt criticise Rafa for bringing him off saturday, he did it against Chelsea for babel and it worked well, he wasnt to know that Babel would come on sat and look so disinterested.

As soon as Nando is back i am convinced we will see more of Keane, you could see the signs just before Torres got injured.

The only slight criticism you could give Rafa is leaving the squad a bit bare striker wise, as he clearly doesnt trust Ngog.

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:57 am

Ace Ventura wrote:The only slight criticism you could give Rafa is leaving the squad a bit bare striker wise, as he clearly doesnt trust Ngog.

I agree this bit of criticism.

Just as I'm happy with how Rafa has secured the future of CB, and the midfield, I think too many men were tried upfront, and right now we don't have depth upfront.

by **tonyeh** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:34 pm

aCe' wrote:when torres isnt available i dont think that we have many other options but to play him up there and hope for the best...
Agree about bringing him off every game not doing his confidence any good...
He's obviously got talent and while he's been struggling to prove his abilities in a red shirt, i dont think its the time to be leaving out another attacking option (limited as he may be - in any sense of the word) only to bring on another midfielder and look to change our shape and tactics...etc etc
We need as many attacking options as we can get in pretty much every game and from where im sitting, scoring or not he seems to be better than what we got bar Torres when we'r going forward.
I dont know about the stats but it sure would be interesting to compare the number of goals we'v scored when having two strikers on the pitch withe numbers when we'v only playedd one... i know it worked against chelsea and to some extent against ManUtd but still...
I think we need to start playing 2 upfront more often ..

I agree completely.

There's nobody liverpool can REALLY rely on for regular goals when Torres is out of the show. It's that simple. Keane was a strange buy for Liverpool, I have to confess. I said it before the season started and I'll say it again. Rafa bought Keane because David Villa was off the table. I shook my head in disbelief at the 20 million price tag, but there you go.

As for a single striker up top or Liverpool...that makes me wince every time I see it (even when it is Torres). I know some disagree, but I think it's a terribly negative approach, especially when they are playing "weaker" teams like Spurs. If Liverpool are serious about the title, they need to start with two up top and use those attack options for the vast majority of their games. I understand maybe strengthening the midfield at the expense of the attack for the likes of Chelsea, but in most games, no way.

Take the Spurs game for example, Kuyt (or Babel) and Keane should have started up front and probably the game would have been sown up by half time.

Sometimes I wish Rafa would just leave things alone as the game progresses. I fail to understand his subs in the Spurs game at all and it did liverpool no good at all. Taking Keane off for Babel.........no. :no

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:47 pm

Bam wrote:
s@int wrote:
Igor Zidane wrote:When crouch first came , remember the run he had before he scored his first goal , i think it was 14 games . People were screaming for him to be dropped and Rafa stuck by him . IMO Rafa will do exactly the same with Keane . It will come i'm sure of it.

The problem is by the time Crouch started scoring, we had lost any chance we had of making a challenge for the league. We could be in the same position again if we continue to play an underperforming Keane.

Sometimes you have to make a hard decision and leave someone out, not for their own good ...... but for the good of the team.

I can't see how bringing him on as a sub can be much more damaging to his confidence than to keep bringing him off every game anyway. (Especially against Spurs!)

I would drop him, some people would play him through his "bad spell". I have no real problem with either option, I just don't think that we can afford to keep playing another misfiring striker if we are to mount a title challenge this season.

Just to note S@int that when Crouch did start scoring and finding form infront of goal he was then rotated out of form.

On the subject of dropping Keane for a few games, well I'd probably agree if we went back to a 4-2-31 formation, meaning Nando starts upfront on his own.

But when we're playing teams like Hull, WBA and Bolton etc away or at home I'd play two upfront, Keane and Torres.

The problem with playing two strikers against the Bolton, Wigan, W.B.A.'s is that they play 5 in midfield, and unless our strikers are both on form the fact that we are outnumbered in midfield is more of a problem to us than defending against 2 strikers is to them. We saw that clearly against Wigan, and but for the sending off I think we might have PAID for it against Wigan.

Stoke posed a different problem, they willingly gave up the midfield battle for extra defenders and again our 2 forwards couldn't finish while our midfield couldn't quite find the right pass.

Hopefully once Torres is back we may see the difference having a striker who takes his chances can make.

The alternative is playing 4-2-3-1 as we did last season. With Keane not firing we have struggled to make it work, however once Torres is back hopefully goals will come a little easier.

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:48 pm

hang on,i thought we bought RIERA for 20mil and Keane for 8?

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:52 pm

tonyeh wrote:Sometimes I wish Rafa would just leave things alone as the game progresses. I fail to understand his subs in the Spurs game at all and it did liverpool no good at all. Taking Keane off for Babel.........no.

You're by no means the only person that's commented on this, Tony, so I'm not singling you out but...

...I find it intriguing that so many were hailing Rafa for replacing Keane with Babel on 60 minutes with us one goal up at Stamford Bridge yet less than a week later he replaces Keane with Babel on 66 minutes with us one goal up at White Hart Lane and suddenly it's a terrible decision?

I find that perspective hard to take seriously.

by **stmichael** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:03 pm

I agree that he's looking lost but i refuse to have a go at the lad because he is playing in a position where he needs to be clinical and at the moment he seems too busy trying to set a team mate up instead of shooting himself.

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:06 pm

Ace Ventura wrote:I actually dont think he is playing anywhere near as poorly as people are making out.
I also think he has suffered alot with Torres being out, he IS NOT a lone striker and he is doing his best for the team.
I wouldnt criticise Rafa for bringing him off saturday, he did it against Chelsea for babel and it worked well, he wasnt to know that Babel would come on sat and look so disinterested.

As soon as Nando is back i am convinced we will see more of Keane, you could see the signs just before Torres got injured.

The only slight criticism you could give Rafa is leaving the squad a bit bare striker wise, as he clearly doesnt trust Ngog.

TBH mate if that's his best and he's not playing poorly, we should get rid NOW, because for me what we are seeing at the moment is a player who is not good enough for Liverpool. Unless there is A LOT MORE TO COME from Keane he shouldn't be near the first team whether we have a replacement or not.

The only argument that holds water for me, is that he his struggling to adapt and has lost confidence. That at least gives hope of improvement. To say he is not playing badly when he has scored just 2 goals (none in the league) in 17 games (11 league games), has been subbed in virtually every game, and the only thing he has really offered up to now is hard work and missed chances, is like saying Kuyt was a playing great last season as a second striker.

by **metalhead** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:25 pm

s@int wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I actually dont think he is playing anywhere near as poorly as people are making out.
I also think he has suffered alot with Torres being out, he IS NOT a lone striker and he is doing his best for the team.
I wouldnt criticise Rafa for bringing him off saturday, he did it against Chelsea for babel and it worked well, he wasnt to know that Babel would come on sat and look so disinterested.

As soon as Nando is back i am convinced we will see more of Keane, you could see the signs just before Torres got injured.

The only slight criticism you could give Rafa is leaving the squad a bit bare striker wise, as he clearly doesnt trust Ngog.

TBH mate if that's his best and he's not playing poorly, we should get rid NOW, because for me what we are seeing at the moment is a player who is not good enough for Liverpool. Unless there is A LOT MORE TO COME from Keane he shouldn't be near the first team whether we have a replacement or not.

The only argument that holds water for me, is that he his struggling to adapt and has lost confidence. That at least gives hope of improvement. To say he is not playing badly when he has scored just 2 goals (none in the league) in 17 games (11 league games), has been subbed in virtually every game, and the only thing he has really offered up to now is hard work and missed chances, is like saying Kuyt was a playing great last season as a second striker.

you expect TOO much

by **account deleted by request** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:36 pm

metalhead wrote:
s@int wrote:
Ace Ventura wrote:I actually dont think he is playing anywhere near as poorly as people are making out.
I also think he has suffered alot with Torres being out, he IS NOT a lone striker and he is doing his best for the team.
I wouldnt criticise Rafa for bringing him off saturday, he did it against Chelsea for babel and it worked well, he wasnt to know that Babel would come on sat and look so disinterested.

As soon as Nando is back i am convinced we will see more of Keane, you could see the signs just before Torres got injured.

The only slight criticism you could give Rafa is leaving the squad a bit bare striker wise, as he clearly doesnt trust Ngog.

TBH mate if that's his best and he's not playing poorly, we should get rid NOW, because for me what we are seeing at the moment is a player who is not good enough for Liverpool. Unless there is A LOT MORE TO COME from Keane he shouldn't be near the first team whether we have a replacement or not.

The only argument that holds water for me, is that he his struggling to adapt and has lost confidence. That at least gives hope of improvement. To say he is not playing badly when he has scored just 2 goals (none in the league) in 17 games (11 league games), has been subbed in virtually every game, and the only thing he has really offered up to now is hard work and missed chances, is like saying Kuyt was a playing great last season as a second striker.

you expect TOO much

I know mate ,fancy expecting a £20million striker to score ! Still it is better than being an Alonso basher like you

by **maypaxvobiscum** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 1:42 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
tonyeh wrote:Sometimes I wish Rafa would just leave things alone as the game progresses. I fail to understand his subs in the Spurs game at all and it did liverpool no good at all. Taking Keane off for Babel.........no.

You're by no means the only person that's commented on this, Tony, so I'm not singling you out but...

...I find it intriguing that so many were hailing Rafa for replacing Keane with Babel on 60 minutes with us one goal up at Stamford Bridge yet less than a week later he replaces Keane with Babel on 66 minutes with us one goal up at White Hart Lane and suddenly it's a terrible decision? I find that perspective hard to take seriously.

BB, Keane has with spurs for ages. the defenders would know his weaknesses but he will know theirs too. he would have been a better option to manipulate any defensive weakness compared to Babel.

by **GYBS** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:14 pm

Must agree Bad Bob - one week Babel comes on and does great the next week he doesnt perform - is that rafas fault ? no

by **aCe'** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:22 pm

tonyeh wrote:
aCe' wrote:when torres isnt available i dont think that we have many other options but to play him up there and hope for the best...
Agree about bringing him off every game not doing his confidence any good...
He's obviously got talent and while he's been struggling to prove his abilities in a red shirt, i dont think its the time to be leaving out another attacking option (limited as he may be - in any sense of the word) only to bring on another midfielder and look to change our shape and tactics...etc etc
We need as many attacking options as we can get in pretty much every game and from where im sitting, scoring or not he seems to be better than what we got bar Torres when we'r going forward.
I dont know about the stats but it sure would be interesting to compare the number of goals we'v scored when having two strikers on the pitch withe numbers when we'v only playedd one... i know it worked against chelsea and to some extent against ManUtd but still...
I think we need to start playing 2 upfront more often ..

I agree completely.

There's nobody liverpool can REALLY rely on for regular goals when Torres is out of the show. It's that simple. Keane was a strange buy for Liverpool, I have to confess. I said it before the season started and I'll say it again. Rafa bought Keane because David Villa was off the table. I shook my head in disbelief at the 20 million price tag, but there you go.

As for a single striker up top or Liverpool...that makes me wince every time I see it (even when it is Torres). I know some disagree, but I think it's a terribly negative approach, especially when they are playing "weaker" teams like Spurs. If Liverpool are serious about the title, they need to start with two up top and use those attack options for the vast majority of their games. I understand maybe strengthening the midfield at the expense of the attack for the likes of Chelsea, but in most games, no way.

Take the Spurs game for example, Kuyt (or Babel) and Keane should have started up front and probably the game would have been sown up by half time.

Sometimes I wish Rafa would just leave things alone as the game progresses. I fail to understand his subs in the Spurs game at all and it did liverpool no good at all. Taking Keane off for Babel.........no.

What gets under my skin is that when we play the 4-2-3-1 we basically end up looking like a side playing 4 defenders...3 central midfielders, an out of position centerback playing down the right flank, a proper winger (now that riera is here) and a top top striker in torres...
Take torres out of that equation and we'r just a team set out to stop opposition from playing their game and trying to rely on the quality of the player we have to nick a 1-0 or 2-1 win..

Its pretty dissapointing and even depressing at times watching our players playing the weaker sides and struggling to break them down... we dont even create enough chances or look the better side without doubt in most of our games..

the tottenham game where everyone was talking about all the chances we missed and how we should have been 5-0 up byb halftime ?! if the chances we had were that good we should seriously consider selling half our lineup as theyr obviously incompetent footballer to say the least.. i know that being a liverpool supporter i probably wouldnt consider our chances to have been that great as compared to how a say tottenham supporter would see things but still... by that logic Arsenal should be winning every game and scoring double digits while doing so !

I think its time to try and go back to basics when we'r playing the smaller sides... 4-4-2 with 2 wide men and Gerrard and Alonso in the middle and two out and out strikers... Our defense is pretty solid to say the least and going forward against such sides we'd always be expected to score more than they do... wouldnt mind seeing more 4-2s as opposed to 1-0s cause ultimately once you get your strikers going and scoring goals its alot easier to try and stitch up the defensive errors..

The whole chelsea playing a lone striker discussion is a whole different issue... chelsea have better playerxs than we do in every department... Hell id even go as far as saying that the only player in our side who would actually impove their team is probably Torres... Gerrard less so but Torres with chelsea would be scary to even think about...
Chelsea do set up in a very familiar 4-2-3-1 (4-1-3-1-1 or whatever you wanna call it) but the difference is that they have Deco, Lampard, Essien, Ballack , Mikel who fill out the central positions.. every single one of those players (maybe Mikel less so with the role he's given) is a goal threat and contributes to the teams attacking play...
We have Gerrard, Alonso and Mascherano, Lucas too... Of the 4 Gerrard is the only one who goes forward and has any sort of impact on our direct attacking play...
We'r very limited in many ways and our movement off the ball leaves alot to be admired...Our central players (Alonso and Masherano more so) never seem to be up for the pass and try to take a better position higher up plays and seem satisfied with playing the pass and sticking to their positions... this is mainly why we struggle to break down weaker sides... You never see the Arsenals, ManUtds, and Chelseas doing that...
Too predictable at times and very much lacking in flair and creativity from the central areas... if we wanna keep playing this way i think that playing Pennant and Riera down the flanks is a must ... 2 players upfront is a must.. can see us dropping more and more points against the smaller sides if we persist with our negative tactics and setups.

by **GYBS** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:24 pm

Playing pennant ? after his wonder show against Pompey ?

by **aCe'** » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:29 pm

GYBS wrote:Playing pennant ? after his wonder show against Pompey ?

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