Liverpool FC Forum

[Roger Red Hat]

I knew the cup game was soon.

[Scottbot]

And of course you drop in the classic line, "how well has X done since he scored his first goal". I've heard that said of Flintoff too, pick their purple patch or discount games they'd rather forget, and make them look better than they actually are. If you exclude my spelling mistakes, my spelling is perfect................... 

I'm not the biggest lover of stats but you were using his overall goals record per min/game etc to highlight his deficiencies.

I mentioned his goals to games/mins ratio to highlight the fact his current form is the best he has shown so far. This can't be argued against (can it?) It's perfectly valid to use statistics in this way if you are trying to illustrate the FORM of a player, surely? 

Then you say "But maybe I should just accept the feeble into our fold with open arms, put the interests of nurturing poor old robbie ahead of the team" DESPITE the fact the stats show he is earning his right to be in the team these past 4/5 games.

[Bad Bob]

We don't have to play two up front, we changed a successful system as used towards the end of last season to accommodate Keane.

And, oh how it's cost us so far: undefeated, joint top of table and in pole position in the CL. So, you might say we've replaced a successful system with an equally successful system and that all of this fuss about whether Keane is justifying his price tag or not matters little in the grand scheme of our season to date.

[Ben1988]

We don't have to play two up front, we changed a successful system as used towards the end of last season to accommodate Keane.

And, oh how it's cost us so far: undefeated, joint top of table and in pole position in the CL. So, you might say we've replaced a successful system with an equally successful system and that all of this fuss about whether Keane is justifying his price tag or not matters little in the grand scheme of our season to date.

if there was a smiley showing someone applauding I would have used it here.

[Toffeehater]

I have never been keen on Keane, always thought he had limited vision, poor passing and very poor at creating space or helping his strike partner. I have always thought he was a good goalscorer though, and have no doubt that once he starts knocking them in he will get 10-15 goals a season for us.

He was never worth £20million but thats neither his fault or problem. His problem is to start scoring goals and playing to his best level for us.

I am still unsure why he has had such difficulties settling but I am sure he will improve.

I'm not sure he will get 10-15 goals, then again Heskey and Crouch managed to score some goals playing up front so there's no reason he can't.

He's now played near 900 mins for Liverpool, 7 games home and 7 games away, with just two goals. That's one goal for every THREE FULL 90 MINS he plays in a Liverpool shirt so far. Was he worth £20m? Never in a month of Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays AND Sundays. He's at an age where he may well be at or past his peak, we'll never see anything like £20m back on him and while you have to pay for quality, we've yet to see much of a return - £10m per goal so far, more misses than goals by plenty.

Is he another Kuyt? No, and even if he was where would he play? Kuyt can tackle, work hard, runs for 90 mins and pops up for late crucial goals. Keane has only shown some of those qualities and not with any great consistency.

The biggest worry for me overall is that fans (on here especially) are willing Keane to do well and that's clouding their judgement over the best interests of the team - a bit like the Kuyt Grande Bashers (KGB) trying to out Kuyt because they either don't like him or don't know much about what he does for the team. We shouldn't be playing Keane until he hits form, Rafa made that mistake with Crouch and finally when he did score, he was still far from prolific. Give him fair chance, but don't bend over backwards to put a struggling striker in the team WILLING him to score, yet knowing that the chances are he won't (7-1 at the moment)

And of course THE miss last night was crucial, although obviously without his goal - offside or otherwise - we'd have been even worse off. Even now people are still 'making excuses' for him and hoping that he 'comes good', how long is 'only a matter of time' and why on earth would or should we grant a £20m striker that? (at the expense of the team's best interests)

Bench on Sunday unless Torres is not available, no two ways about it. Yet I bet that people will say "he scored, we need to keep him in the side to boost his confidence" as was the case last time he scored. He is 28 ffs, if he can't get over selection policies of managers by now then he definitely shouldn't have been signed. Reckoning is he was taken off because of his miss, probably is correct because Rafa tends to make substitutions AT LEAST six minutes AFTER Keane was taken off, quite often around the 60-70 mins mark. That was pretty early for Rafa

But how many f**in players do we see come to Anfield being asked to play in positions that are different than those in which they were shining at their previous club. We're always so keen to knock these guys.

In reality Robbie hasn't had 2 games in a row to my knowledge, start to finish, in the position which he held at Spurs for years. We all know it takes time and confidence for players like him to start knocking them in.

Personally I think that his presence is the reason for a significant part of the dynamism that we are seeing with the team now. We have threatening width now and there is generally a lot more space and movement up front than I have seen for years. Robbie is always finding good spaces to move into and takes at least 1 defender with him.

For the first time in a long time, when without our number 1 striker, we looked threatening and I personally didn't find myself dreading the game on Wednesday. I have faith in the man, and let's not forget that he scored the goal that got us the point in the first place and took the goal well. He was also in position in the to miss the 2nd golden opportunity. We've been through seasons when we haven't even had that.

Personally I like him, I like the way he commits in the game and I think that he is getting close to an understanding with both Gerrard and Torres, let's not forget that we have 3 big names now who are used to being the centre of everything. I think it will all come good.

If he's given a run until Christmas, I think we'll all be thinking it was a great buy and we'll be welcoming Mr. Owen back on the cheap to fill in as number 3.

Torres, Keane, Owen.....am I the only one that would have been excited by that prospect 2 years ago?

top post , absolutely spot on 

[Sabre]

Ironically I could say your post is disappointing and somewhat hypocritical (of Liverpool fans, not necessarily yourself) when so many used the £20m price tag in their clouded judgement over him being selected or left out.

How exactly is using the fee "clouding judgement" ? To expect a player we paid a lot for to PERFORM - to at least a reasonable level? Of course he is in the early months, but a lot on here want to play him, play him and play him some more until he "comes good". Even if you disregard the fee he's been a disappointment.

I have never used until he comes good despite I've read it. You see, as much as I'm Alonso biased, I don't think that when he plays better is all thanks to his inspiration, but what players like Riera and Keane have provided to the team and his game.

I have liked Keane so far, especially in the last games, I like him so much that I would forget about my favoured rotation because I think the Torres - Keane combination is the best combination by far. While if Alonso is injured I'll be happy with Combinations like Gerrard-Mascherano, I don't think any other combination upfront is close to the quality of the one that provide the Spaniard and the Irish.

So I may be ridiculously wrong if you wish, probably biased because Keano is Spaniard, but not hypocrital. It's my honest opinion: I've liked Keane a lot, and his goals will come. I'm not surprised Rafa rotates the upfront partnership rarely .


Of course I'll demand him goals for what we have paid, but I simply don't find it realistic to demand him that right from the start, scoring is about streaks, and I can't ask him to start a great one in the first month. Even a super striker like Torres can have 4 or 5 games without scoring, and those games can be easily the first ones of the season. It's far too early to say that Keane's scoring for Liverpool has been poor. Let's look at the numbers in summer, and we'll be able to make reasonable opinions about that.

The 20 M  pound are for a contract that is for years, so to make a division of the goals so far is a bit unfair. Especially when you know the price has a lot to do with how ridiculously expensive are the english player market.

We don't have to play two up front, we changed a successful system as used towards the end of last season to accommodate Keane. Who would I play instead? Well it doesn't have to be a striker, we could play Kuyt behind Torres (when fit) with Gerrard or Pennant on the right, at the moment the team is doing well, but that almost certainly won't last and Keane could as easily "come good" if he has to earn his place, rather than be gifted it - whether down to his transfer fee or not.

We don't have to play two strikers, it's true, and I'm not one of those who think that playing one striker is negative. In fact, while I've advocated many times here to play with one striker, I wouldn't advocate for that now, because I think the Torres-Keane partnership will give much to talk in the future.

Somebody is wrong here, because Kuyt is cáck, Dossena is cráp, and Keane is a gobshíte and not good enough. But we're top of the table and I don't think that's viable with 3 or 4 players dragging the team.


I don't know why you think Keane is gifted anything. Look Alonso, he was going to be sold, surely if he's playing now is because Rafa deems necessary to maintain our good position in the table. It's more important to Rafa to play the best team at the moment, than justifying his own decission in the summer, which talks highly about him.

If Rafa was a man of gifts, he should be playing Mascherano now every game, because Mascherano made an excellent season yesteryear and I don't even remember a bad game of his. Surely Rafa owes him a lot of gifts, but Rafa doesn't work that way, he chooses the players he thinks are the best every time.

I think Rafa is very keen on Keane's game, and I don't think he's being gifted anything. Just the same as Riera, and any other player that is currently playing.

If you don't like the player, fair enough. If you want to tell me why, I'll read your opinion with attention. If you think we'd NOW be a better team with one striker or playing Kuyt behind Torres, I don't have problems. BUt I disagree.

I just ask not to use as a weapon his price tag so early, it's not his fault how the market is.

[Reg]

what was proven the other day is that he's at his most effective when he's played as the furthest striker forward. if he plays he should not be expected to play between the midfield and attack as that doesn't get the best out of him imo. the most suited player for that position that we have is probably benayoun and he's nowhere near being a first team regular.

How did he play with Berbatov and by extension, how did Berbatov play in relation to Torres?

I´m now saying we replicate what K&B did but we should at least understand it and look for the positive points and synergies to get the best of of both Keane and the K&T strike team.

[Scottbot]

what was proven the other day is that he's at his most effective when he's played as the furthest striker forward. if he plays he should not be expected to play between the midfield and attack as that doesn't get the best out of him imo. the most suited player for that position that we have is probably benayoun and he's nowhere near being a first team regular.

How did he play with Berbatov and by extension, how did Berbatov play in relation to Torres?

I´m now saying we replicate what K&B did but we should at least understand it and look for the positive points and synergies to get the best of of both Keane and the K&T strike team.

I don't really buy that either. Keane is a classic partnership player, he's an intelligent footballer who will be always thinking how he can best make his partnership with Torres work. He's more of a tweener than an out and out front-man or a 'playin the hole' pull the strings type either. I think he's come in to the side not quite sure what his role is and he's gradually figuring it out.

[tubby]

He intelligent but im sure Rafa wants more goals from him. He missed a good chance to kill the game of against Madrid. He also missed a good chance against Wigan and Villa. I hope it's just his confidence and this doesnt become a recurring thing as he was pretty good for Spurs.

[bigmick]

WARNING-THIS IS QUITE A LONG POST. IT COULD BE CONSTRUED AS BEING A BIT BORING. BEST NOT READ IT IF YOU AREN'T REALLY VERY INTERESTED IN FOOTBALL.


It's a very interesting thread (I must say I did like the "he cost 20 mill so his goals have been 10 mill each" line ) and I probably agree with bits and bobs of everybodies posts. Bam's topic starter is a good one, and I broadly agree with his "form is temporary class is permanant" line. Keane is a good player, and there are absolutely no worries from this quarter anyway that he has improved the team, and will do so further. Our best pairing up top previously was obviously Crouch and Torres by a distance, and now it's Keane and Torres by a distance. Given Keane is a better player than Crouch I have no problem with it at all. The fee probably was a bit high, but as Sabes says it's just the market and we'll know by roughly how much in a year or two.

The one thing which hasn't really been touched on too much are the reasons that Keane has taken, and is taking time to settle. I've got a couple of theories on that, and I'm afraid we're back into that situation where a player is simply going to have to adapt the way he plays if he is going to be overly successful in a Liverpool team. My thoughts on the situation here, as opposed to Spurs are thus:

It seems to me that when he was at Spurs, keane did everything. Everything in the sense that he scored all types of goals, occasional headers, shots from outside the box, getting to crosses first (which he's got one of at Liverpool so far), as a foil to a target man knocking it down for him to run onto, and being the recipitent of a quality through ball (once again he has had one of those too, not through balls but goals). Alied to this he linked the play by popping up in a variety of areas, and was encouraged to go wide and beat a man etc etc (usually on the left side) as they had Lennon on the right.

Now he's come into a team who's pattern is radically different. For instance, he scored twice against Liverpool at Anfield last season and it's reasonable to assume he's rarely if ever going to score similar goals playing for us. Why? well in both cases Berbatov was hit from distance and won headers against Hyppia, knocking them down for keane to get on the end of. Now fantastic player though he is, Torres isn't going to do that very often for his partner, and nor do we play that way anyway. Keane was and is actually very good at that rotary movement, the one where he comes in and shows for a pass to feet, but once it gets put up and over him he'd spin and get onto whichever side of Berbatov would make it easier for the Bulgarian to win the knockdown and put him in. Once he was there, both finishes were confident and instinctive, but the movement is the thing, as well as the awareness.

Now I haven't studied his goalscoring prowess enough to know how many of his goals were like that, but there were a few and he ain't going to get many at Liverpool like that. The only goal I can remember us scoring which was similar (and there's obviously more but I'm just going off the top of my head here) was in the FA Cup final where the ball was knocked up to the front man (might've been Crouch but not sure) who knocked it down for Gerrard to volley in. Anyway, the point being we don't play like that stands and holds good.

Similarly, he isn't going to get as much opportunity to score with shots from outside the box as he did at Spurs, because quite simply nine times out of ten we are trying to set Gerrard up from there if anyone. Infact it's fair to say that although it is true that our captain is a World Class player and all that, much of our attacking play is (quite rightly) set up so as to give him the opportunity to get on the ball in the final third. As such, Torres and Keane would be expected to split and clear the space if Gerrard is running onto it from distance.

Equally, Spurs under Jol were a very attractive team. They played much of an end to end style with the game getting quite stretched in many cases. Once again Keane would like this, spaces and opportunities opening up around the pitch for him to create mayhem and to score goals. For Liverpool, by virtue of the fact that we're a better team, teams sit deeper against us, not commiting so many men forward and Keane would be expected to actually create space more than just walk into it as he did as Spurs.

Lastly the dropping wide left bit, which he did a lot at his previous club. Obviously now we've got Rierra there, with Dossena doing the muggers getaway down his outside much of the time, there simply isn't the space for Keane to operate.

He probably feels sometimes like he's stepping on his teammates toes throughout the pitch, and indeed it looks like that sometimes. I suspect though that Gerrard's less marauding style of late is probably the result of a request from the management to give the Irishman some room to work in, and this seems already to have helped. Equally, I'd be asking Keane to come much deeper on occasions, to not worry about leaving Torres alone up top. I'd also ask him to come right more, particularly when Kuyt and Arbeloa are having one of their periods when they look like they've never met each other before.

As for the goals though, I don't see him being that prolific simply for the reasons spoke about earlier. Ultimately however it's worth pointing out that while there are many differences for him betwen his Spurs days and his Liverpool ones, at Spurs there wasn't a Torres scoring 30+ goals a season, or a Gerrard scoring 20+ from midfield. My point being that it doesn't really matter so much if he creates for others and chips in with 10-15 himself.

He's a good player, he'll work it out and all the signs are he will be part of a Liverpool team which will go closer to winning the League than any other for many a year. That'll do for me.

[tubby]

You should write for a newspaper mick. Good read.

[Scottbot]

Equally, I'd be asking Keane to come much deeper on occasions, to not worry about leaving Torres alone up top. I'd also ask him to come right more, particularly when Kuyt and Arbeloa are having one of their periods when they look like they've never met each other before.


.......He's a good player, he'll work it out and all the signs are he will be part of a Liverpool team which will go closer to winning the League than any other for many a year. That'll do for me.

It's a good post as usual mate. Good shout about him peeling off to the right a little more often as most of our penetration (so far) this season has come down the left side. I'd also be happy to see him come deep, get the ball and face-up more often.

I agree (surely most do) that he is a good player and an intelligent player. He's had to adjust to fit the team and unlike previous years, he has had to think about his game instead of simply going out and playing the way he did with Tottenham or any of his previous teams. Quite a few posters on here seem to think he should have simply arrived at the club and hit the ground running at full-pace but I don't thin that was ever going to happen. Someone at Sky (i know it's hard to believe) made a pretty good point (think it Was Redknapp) about Keane and Berbatov not really getting a full and proper pre-season while the speculation about their futures was going on and there might also be a some truth in that. Not that I'm trying to make excuses for him, just pointing out that others have been hasty in their judgment and his previous record/performances should afford him some time. FWIW I think he is playing well.

Another aspect of Keane which is hard to measure and therefore gets overlooked is the impact he (in my opinion) makes in the dressing groom and as a leader on the pitch. He's a vocal player (not quite in the same vein as Carra) who points, shouts and directs players around him. Having coached football sides for the past 6 years (not too any great level I may add) this is absolutely invaluable in football.

[account deleted by request]

Top post Mick, I particularly liked this bit :-

Keane would be expected to actually create space more than just walk into it as he did as Spurs.

Mainly because I have been thinking along similar lines myself. For me Kuyt for all his problems does create space for his partner, while both Torres and Keane move into and fill spaces. I think thats one reason that Keane has so far seemed to play better with Kuyt rather than Torres, although I think the addition of Riera has also helped him lately.

I think one also has to acknowledge that Torres had to make relatively few changes to his style when he came last season..... mainly playing the lone front man with Kuyt or Gerrard in support, whereas this season Torres has had to adjust his game to playing with Keane as a partner, just as Keane is also adjusting his own style of play. While Kuyt plays more or less the same whichever partner he plays with (when he plays central), although usually a little further forward when played with Keane.

I still believe he is a striker that runs from deep rather than a true creative second striker, a player of flicks and tricks rather than a great passer and a player that will score many more than he will make, even playing alongside a world class player like Torres.

Keane has spent most of his career running into the space created by a target man(Mido,Kanoute,Viduka, Berbatov)  and would have imo settled much quicker playing alongside say Crouch rather than with Torres.

I think we could have got better for our money, but if he helps shoot us to the title I won't be complaining too loudly

My worry is that people will become as divided over Keane as they are over Kuyt. While results are going our way thats not a problem, but if we hit a sticky patch .........

[bigmick]

It's interesting s@int your point about Keane gelling with Crouch. Keane kept Defoe out of the Spurs team simply because he is IMHO a better player, and Defoe is in the early stages of forming a potent combination with Crouch. I've no doubts that Crouch will continue to score regularly for Pompey as indeed he did for us after that nightmare spell at the start, and Defoe too will find the net on a regular basis. It's a long drawn out way of saying that yes I too think Crouch and Keane would be a potent partenership which would need very little time to gel.

Now those who don't bother reading the second paragraph will no doubt post that "what a numpty, so you're saying we should Torres are you?". I'm not of course but it's never stopped them before  . Neither am I saying funnily enough that the signing of Keane was necessarily a mistake given the assumption that he and Torres don't appear to be a marraige made in heaven. I actually slightly disagree s@int with your good self in that I think he can create goals for Torres, for Gerrard and for whoever else gets himself close to the goal. he just needs to find the key, and for me as I said in the earlier war and peace effort, I can't get away from the feeling that it's going to be drfting to an inside right slot and even wider where he can fill in and cause most damage. Perhaps when Riera crosses it, he can drift to and can take up a back post position, moving out towards the penalty spot if the ball is hit in shorter. Maybe as he and "Dirky boy" get more acquainted, they can cross over and exchange positions from time to time.

Mostly though, I think the manager thought that with Gerrard in behind Torres we were a bit predictable. He probably thought that the better teams could sever the umbilical chord which was attaching our best two players to the rest of the team (that's my own long held theory anyway). I think his idea with Keane was to get him and Gerrard to drift in there (the hole in behind Torres) in turn, or even occasionally simultaneously and in so doing making it harder for us to be shut out as an attacking force. We haven't really got it yet, but as I said I do believe Gerrard has been asked to sit a bit more, to give Keane some room in which to operate. Once they dovetail it all together (and it takes time, this is why mass rotation with new players is and always will be a nonsense) I'm hopeful we'll look very good going forward. Funnily enough, my concern for the team is less about Keane right now, and more about our inability or so it seems to defend effectively.

[bigmick]

You should write for a newspaper mick. Good read.

Ta v much mate, much appreciated. Note to any newspaper editors (like there's loads of em on here)-that would be my dream fecking job, although I might have a bit of bother with the old "keep it under 800 words" bit lol.