Liverpool FC Forum

by **Espionage** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:49 am

NiftyNeil wrote:I missed the match yesterday due to work. I was told that Rafa changed the formation and we were pants first half. After reverting to 4-4-2 in the second half, we got our act together and won the game. However, this wasn't the case. I watched the extended highlights last night on football first. I thought City were second best throughout the game and were extremely lucky to be 2 goals ahead at half time. I think the formation worked well in the first half and we should of been ahead. Like someone has already said, we started off well in the second half with the same formation and scored a crucial early goal - and the second was from a corner. I think Rafa got it right, but a few individual (player) errors have put him under Big Mick's microscope again.

You hit the nail on the head. The media will tell you that we were pants in the first half but the fact of the matter is that we just made uncharacteristic, poor errors.

When the City player got sent off we played a lot better, but the media says that its down to the fact that Rafa FINALLY made the right change and put out the team that he should have played from the start.

If we were against 10 men with our initial formation then I think that we would have got at least the same result (on average).

by **JoeTerp** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 6:54 am

Bigmick, what would you suggest for the Wigan match in a fortnight? Revert back to 442 and risk further loss of consistency or try and stick out with this 4-5-1 business? Does it matter a lot less when you are coming back from a 2 week layoff, or does it matter even more because there is less time to train, so you have to revert back to what you know?
I think a lot of people might think Wigan at home, we should boss it no matter what and even throw some kids on the bench, but I have watched them play and they have looked impressive and dangerous even in defeat, so they certainly cannot eb taken lightly.

by **Number 9** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:15 am

Rafa played 5 in MF because he anticipated city would and thought that as they were at home they would go for it.He tried to match them man for man.
No other reason.He sure as fu'ck did'nt do it just to give Masch a game as Stu suggested!

I dare say the vast majority of teams that go there will do the same given the quality Man C have in the MF.With a man down in that department there is a chance that they would outpass and over run us..that was his thinking and its far from insane,quite sensible and logical i'd say!

SAY THAT,I'd much rather he stuck with the 4-4-2 because we had being going well and Keane needed a game after his goal for confidence.
Would it have made any difference if he had??I doubt it very much.
If people think we are gonna go through the season with the same 11 and same formation they are in cuckoo land,there is not a team in the world that does or will..so dont be surprised to see the odd change here and there,thats football.It wont be to the extent of previous seasons though but it will happen from time to time!
I understand fully the managers thinking yesterday and also respect that he made a few crucial decisions that probably won us the game!
At the end of the day we won 3-2 and 3 points at City is a good return!
Call it luck,get out of jail,determination,character or whatever ya want...the result stays the same and we got the job done in the end!

by **Owzat** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 7:37 am

john craig wrote:I think the tactic of dropping Keane for what Benitez sees as difficult away fixtures in favour of playing two holding midfielders, is something we will see more of this season. He did it away to Marseille too.

The goals we conceded today were defensive mistakes that got punished, simple as that. We were poor first half, but that's not necessarily because of the system. In fact we played better in the second half even before Keane was introduced and the system changed.

Exactly. We weren't 2-0 down because Rafa dropped Keane to the bench, it was poor and avoidable defending. And the comeback was begun before Keane came on, he did a little more than S@int is suggesting, but his absence being blamed is just wishful thinking by those who cried that he shouldn't be dropped.

Is playing one up front negative? Not necessarily, depends what the other members of the team do attacking wise. Keane has played 12 and scored one, Gerrard has played 10 and scored four. Point being Gerrard isn't a striker, it isn't only strikers that score goals and sometimes the less obvious goal source is more effective ie runs from deep, strikes from deep, interlinking play etc can be more effective than a man being marked full time.

There seems to be a big fetish for Keane, probably the price tag and the fans willing him to do well. But he's scored once, he has contributed elsewhere but so have others. People talk about him like he's more pivotal than Torres or Gerrard - he's not. Instead of bleating on about how he should be kept in the side, "it was wrong to drop him because he was confident from his midweek goal", blah blah blah, why not acknowledge his contribution OFF THE BENCH and accept that you don't have to start every game to be a valuable part of the team???

Would we have won without Keane? Quite probably the way the game was going.

Were we 2-0 down because of the changes? NO.

Was Rafa right to change the starting line-up? Yes, Citeh showed he was right because they posed a goalscoring threat, it should have been negated and we had enough of the game that it shouldn't have been 2-0, but the thinking was right. Not all plans work exactly as planned or we'd win every game. If we'd stuck with the XI from midweek we may have lost 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, who knows? This was an away game, not a home game. To think we could turn up with any old XI and beat Citeh is just plain daft. That's only the third time we've won away to Citeh in the Premiership, it's never easy and trying to accomodate one player over the best interests of the team is also just plain daft. It worked, Keane didn't start - get over it

by **tonyeh** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:44 am

It's not just about Keane, it's about the formation. Liverpool may have given 2 goals away in the first half, but they also may have been 2-1 at half time, instead of 2-0 down.

There's no doubt, when Liverpool changed back to the 4-4-2, they operated as a far stronger team. In fact, the scoreline could easilly have been wider at the end.

They may have been the better team overall in the first half too, but they didn't look like they were going to score. They didn't even threaten the goal and that was the difference between the teams yesterday in the first half. City looked like they were a decent attacking side...and bar Kuyt's skyward rocket, Liverpool couldn't find the net.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 9:53 am

When I read people saying Rafa has seen the light I didn't expect they meant every day the same formation, every day the same starting eleven (In Bigmick's case it's not the case because he specifies the details of his stance with disclaimers)

In Rafa's country playing one single formation is seen as having little tactical range, so if anyone expects that light to be seen, I don't think that will happen. What it's expectable is to know to switch even in the same game from one formation to another, just as Spain did when they lost Villa in the summer. BTW Stu, Spain won that final with one striker, and against Germany, those guys who if you make a mistake, they'll make pay .

Also I don't know why playing one striker is negative, when Torres showed yesteryear that he can score tons of goals. If only we had the defensive solidness we are showing this season until the last game, it would have been a much better season the last one.

For me both systems are valid, and some oppo teams will be more vulnerable depending on what formation we use. Rafa did warn about this in summer, he said we'd play 2 formations, and 3 tops. 2 different formations can be assimilated with no problems by any squad.

by **zarababe** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:42 am

Errors happen in matches, it's not all down to formations/tactics etc.. we are good enough and big enough to have changes and still win..

by **tonyeh** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:47 am

BTW Stu, Spain won that final with one striker, and against Germany, those guys who if you make a mistake, they'll make pay.....Also I don't know why playing one striker is negative, when Torres showed yesteryear that he can score tons of goals.

Spain won by one goal. Hardly a stunning victory. That being said, if Liverpool win all their games this year 1-0, I'll be happy. Torres was up front on his own because David Villa was injured. I can't recall myself, but according to these sites, Spain was fond of using a 4-3-3 formation.

http://www.worldsoccer.com/competitions/euro2008/spaintactics.php

http://216.239.59.104/search?....7&gl=ie

BTW, Germany also played a 4-5-1 formation and they lost. I wonder which team's playing style is closer to Liverpool's? :;):

Torres may have been getting goals with a 4-5-1 formation last year, but at the end Liverpool still sat in 4th place with 21 wins, 13 draws & 4 losses and a full 11 points behind the winners.

by **GYBS** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:47 am

well said zara - us being 2 nil down was :censored:

all to do with the change rafa made was down to stupid mistakes . how do people know keane being on would of meant those msitakes werent made

and if kuyt had scored in the first ten mins things would of been different - out in the end we won - antoher 3 points collected .

by **stmichael** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:58 am

i wasn't that surprised with the team selection if i'm honest. in my mind that is the team that will start away at chelsea in a few weeks and in the majority of big games against the big guns away from home.

i'd expect us to go back to 4-4-2 against wigan. i don't see why we'd need to play mascherano in that game. alonso and gerrard are easily good enough to run the show against them, as they showed in the derby last week.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:58 am

tonyeh wrote:There's no doubt, when Liverpool changed back to the 4-4-2, they operated as a far stronger team. In fact, the scoreline could easilly have been wider at the end.

Reality check. We scored our first playing the original formation. The second came off a corner when we had reverted to 4-4-2 but, crucially, we were playing against 10 men. Our third came when it was 10 against 10 and we Alonso playing auxiliary CB. Reverting to 4-4-2 did not win us this game. FACT.

by **Sabre** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:01 pm

To be accurate Bad Bob, Gerrard did also close the back four in those last minutes. Gerrard couldn't shine yesterday, but his game was disciplined.

by **Bad Bob** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:04 pm

Sabre wrote:To be accurate Bad Bob, Gerrard did also close the back four in those last minutes. Gerrard couldn't shine yesterday, but his game was disciplined.

Fair enough, mate...point is, we weren't playing a conventional 4-4-2 when we scored the third.

by **Bam** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:13 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
tonyeh wrote:There's no doubt, when Liverpool changed back to the 4-4-2, they operated as a far stronger team. In fact, the scoreline could easilly have been wider at the end.

Reality check. We scored our first playing the original formation. The second came off a corner when we had reverted to 4-4-2 but, crucially, we were playing against 10 men. Our third came when it was 10 against 10 and we Alonso playing auxiliary CB. Reverting to 4-4-2 did not win us this game. FACT.

He's (Bob) is right about that.

Personally for me that isnt what I was getting at, the fact we won when we reverted back to 4-4-2. Thats wide of the mark, its the fact that Rafa changed a gelled and co-hesive unit who were actually playing like they knew eachother. Why tinker when there isnt a problem ?

Also about Sabre saying 'you look tactically inept' if you cant shift formations well. Sabre did say IN SPAIN, and if you do need to muck around with your formations to boost your ego for the Spanish people and press, well then thats inept management as far as I'm concerned. You do whats right for your players, for your team and for your club as a manager. So I'm sure Rafa doesnt do it to prove to people how clever he is.

I think it was a risk in reverting back 4-2-3-1, as I could see nothing wrong with our team and formation previously.

You just know, rightly or wrongly if Rafa keeps "styling" and we come a cropper all hell will break lose.

by **zarababe** » Mon Oct 06, 2008 12:27 pm

As said already, there if enough about us for changes to happen and the right result be achieved - get over it ppl - we won well as a TEAM - there's a team ethic in place now

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