Liverpool FC Forum

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:35 pm

Pepe25 wrote:I just think with would be refreshing for torres and babel to have a few old world class heads in their team to give give them assurance..... I know if I was on the field against Manure id have more confidence seeing a guy life del piero or nedved there---- maybe that just me

it's definately just you if you want Del Piero in the side.

Lets take a look at our starting 11 and how long they've been over here, what I'd choose anyway

Reina (3 years)
Finnan (his career)
Carra (his career)
Agger (3/4 years)
Arbeloa (nearly 2 years)
Pennant (his career)
Alonso (4 years)
Gerrard (his career)
Mascheranho (2 years)
Babel (one year)
Torres (one year)

So it's not like our first time don't have experince of the league, They've all been here long enough to adjust to life at this level. Then you have the likes of Hyypia, Crouch and Benayoun to help them settle. I put Benayoun there because he's an experinced international. So again our players may be relatively young but there not 18 year olds making their debut. There all international players (bar those who've retired from international duty like Finnan and Carra) so experince is the latest of a long list of excuses people are trying to make. Instead lets be honest and say that the players don't have the bottle or desire to win the league. You can have all the ability in the world, but if you don't have desire then you won't win.

by **Pepe25** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:56 pm

Excuse me- the bottle or desire....Id imagine Ryan Babel or Lucas levia have a lot more bottle than a lot of people in this world......you dont make your way to a club like ours at such a young age without that....Desire you questioned too , get real.....no one goes out to play a bad game.......... the amount of sacrifies they have to make.....I can 100 per cent say that players like babel kuyt pennant and co dont go out to have a bad game, it would be alot easier if they could pick the matches they wanted to play well in.....

I actually do think the reason why we cant win a league is because days when the less matured player isnt having his best day or when we are a goal down -there is not enough experience there to lead by example.... draw on past experience, similar situations...
You mentioned Benayoun - he is about 28. an israeli international- now im irish so i can say this cus we are the around the same level as israel- what kind of experience has he???very little compared to a Nedved or Zambrotta.... Crouch has little experience of winning a league either- Southampton -
It is easier put it down to the current crop dont have the bottle or desire ( id say they have more desire than past generations because they drink less , watch their diet more and are constantl being watched, people waiting for them to do something wrong )

Alot of good players , players bought on FORM have been brought into the squad over the past years...... they dont turn into bad players.... so I am going to stand by my point that Experienced World class players like zambrotta will bring us closer to winning the league than a rafina style player

My idea is yes you need pace and explosive pace like Ribery on the wings...... but you an old experience head beside youth is the best of both worlds...... I m just tryin to think outside the box.... We could bring in villa , nasri next year and we might not be any closer........ its time for a new approach and as Scott said an injection of experience in the mouldof Gary Mac

by **Pepe25** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:06 pm

Lets take a look at our starting 11 and how long they've been over here, what I'd choose anyway

Reina (3 years)
Finnan (his career)
Carra (his career)
Agger (3/4 years)
Arbeloa (nearly 2 years)
Pennant (his career)
Alonso (4 years)
Gerrard (his career)
Mascheranho (2 years)
Babel (one year)
Torres (one year)
According to GBJH

wHAT EXPERIENCE HAVE ANY OF THESE PLAYERS OF WINNING A LEAGUE OVER 38 GAMES?

???
VAN DER SAAR WAS A CHAMPION B4 UTD
Evra was A CHAMPION TOO
Ronaldo PLAYED IN A SMALL LEAGUE BUT HAD A CHAMPION MENTALITY
HARGREAVES WAS A CHAMPION
Giggs is a champion
SCholes is a champion
They all know what it is like to win a league

We need players who KNOW WHAT TO DO AT HOME TO WIGAN ON A :censored:

NIGHT!!!!!
It doesnt mean they are gutless or spineless just inexperienced!!!

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:12 pm

Hang on a minute mate, where have I said that players go out looking to have a bad game? The lack of desire and bottle has been against all sides in the league this year. Desire to bust a gut and ensure three points (wigan, birmingham, villa, west ham, pompey, man city, spurs) and bottle against United where the players were expecting defeat. Even games that we have won like Derby and Everton (both away) the players have just expected to turn up and win, without the desired desire.

I understand and appriciate what you're saying and I can agree with you that one or two experinced players wouldn't harm us but the ones you mention...Del Piero and Zambrotta. No, it's that simple. Italians don't do well over here and both would cost far to much to gamble on. Plus I don't rate either. Nedved? No, he wouldn't get into the side if we played 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 and again his price tag and wage packet would be far to much to have just for him to sit on the bench. What we need if we're going for experince is someone like Martin Petrov. Now I know I've said in the past that he wouldn't be a good buy because of his age, but if we're going down that route then he'd be ideal. 29 years of age which mean he still has three maybe four years left in him. He wouldn't cost the end of the earth and he would push for a starting place.

Going on your point about Crouch though, what experince does he have of winning the league? Well what experince do Nedved, Zambrotta or Del Piero have of winning the premiership? It's entirely different from winning serie a to winning the premiership.

The defence has enough experince in Hyypia, Carragher, Finnan. The midfield has enough quality and enough experince and up front Torres has enough quality to hide his lack of experince. I don't think buying players of 32 plus are going to help because they'll be here for a year and then we're looking to replace them straight away. To many stop gap players have been bought in Benitez' time already. What we need is to buy real quality players or give the young lads a go.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:16 pm

Pepe25 wrote:wHAT EXPERIENCE HAVE ANY OF THESE PLAYERS OF WINNING A LEAGUE OVER 38 GAMES? ???
VAN DER SAAR WAS A CHAMPION B4 UTD
Evra was A CHAMPION TOO
Ronaldo PLAYED IN A SMALL LEAGUE BUT HAD A CHAMPION MENTALITY
HARGREAVES WAS A CHAMPION
Giggs is a champion
SCholes is a champion
They all know what it is like to win a league

We need players who KNOW WHAT TO DO AT HOME TO WIGAN ON A NIGHT!!!!!
It doesnt mean they are gutless or spineless just inexperienced!!!

Aurellio won the league with Valencia, Agger won it with Bromby, Babel with Ajax, Benayoun won the israli league. It's completly different winning a league abroad to winning the league in England. Kenny Miller won the league in Scotland with Celtic, now he's at Derby. Paul Lambert won the SPL with Celtic and played down here for Derby. Rab Douglas won the SPL with Celtic, now he is playing for Leicester City. Gazza won league titles with Rangers, didn't win a league in England. Graeme Souness is a managing god on the continent with Benfice, Fenebache and Rangers, yet has :censored:

every single English club he ever managed up. So just because players have won titles abroad, don't think they're going to win titles over here.

by **Pepe25** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:23 pm

the italy league still has roughly the same amount of games......italian weather is pretty awful in the winter months just like uk......i dont see your point regarding that aspect of your post......

Obviously it is your opinion, but i think zambrotta or nedved would be alot better than martin petrov. I cant believe you said you dont rate nedved or zambrotta--- zambrotta would prob cost around5 mill and nedved not much either---- surely they would be great buys for peanuts???
You wanted someone to bust a gut----how about nedved a few yrs back in the champions league---cant remember the team but he was suspended for the final and he still drove at the oppositions defence like a mad man ( granted he was younger but you dont lose that kind of hungry over night- i think it would be disrespectful to say anyone over 32 doesnt have a hunger to succeed- its actually ageism!!)

Im not advocating litering the team with golden oldies either---- a couple of them could serve a purpose!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by **Pepe25** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:25 pm

i take your point a few of our players have won a league---- Accepted- but in all honestly at least german, portguese and french team actually are able to compete in europe!!!! when have brondy in the last 10 yrs won anything or got any where in europe and the same goes for israeli clubs

by **66-1112520797** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 3:57 pm

Seaman also played a lot of years with his moustache

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:04 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Even Agger who is massively overated by our own, he's good, really good. You can see it from day one, you can also see he's never the best in the league.

Funny that, I seem to recall you rating him as 'average' and in the same category as Kromkamp.

All there is to say on the matter really

When did I ever say Agger was anything other than a good player?

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:07 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Rubbish. Experience doesn't give players something they never have. It never has and never will. It annoys me the amount "experts" go on about experience, it means very very little.

Boll0ks Stu.

Experiance and ability are TWO WAY TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS !

I'm saying Skertel HAS the ability, and only lacks experiance : Ie Learning from mistakes, getting caught ball watching etc..... Players CAN AND DO LEARN FROM EXPERIANCE, it has f.uck all to do with ability.

It seems to be everyones arguement, give him games, he'll improve, they never do. Does Torres need games? Did Alonso? Did Mascherano? Did Gerrard when he came through? Did Fowler, Owen? Rooney?

Hmmm I wonder why you didnt use Carragher as an example, because you no full well the geezer has matured like a fine bottle of Red in that position.

I never used Carragher because I've had the same opinion of Carragher since day one and still have the same opinion of Carragher now. I still see a player who is excellent in the tackle, still reads the game superbly and concentrates immensely while giving 100%, I also still see the same player who's not overly comfortable on the ball.

I still see the same Carragher who held a god awful defence together under Evans despite having to do the work of four players.

by **god_bless_john_houlding** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:08 pm

Pepe25 wrote:i take your point a few of our players have won a league---- Accepted- but in all honestly at least german, portguese and french team actually are able to compete in europe!!!! when have brondy in the last 10 yrs won anything or got any where in europe and the same goes for israeli clubs

last thing a german side won was 2001. French you're looking back at early 90s with Masielle and other than Porto in 05, you're going back to the 50s and 60s for Portugal to do well in Europe's biggest competition.

Peter Schmiechael came from Denmark (after winning league titles and Euro 92) to join United and he served them well. So the same could be said about Agger. He's come from a winning side, so he has that winning mentality in him.

I still don't see why we need these older players though. Hyypia 34, Finnan 31, Carra reaching 30, Gerrard 28, Crouch 26/27, Kuyt above 25, Alonso reaching 25, Reina around 25, Aurellio 27. It's not like the squad is filled with youngsters just making their name. Even the young lads who we've signed were all full internationals before we signed them. Torres, Agger, Mascheranho, Skrtel, Babel and Lucas had been in the Brazil squad, so again it's not like these players lack experince.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:15 pm

Pepe25 wrote:Liverpool simply dont have enough old heads around the squad........everyone these days is obsessed with young players ie u25.....this is coming from a 22 year old.... Carra (Hyppia, Finann-didnt play) are the few players around the 30 mark... 3 of man utd's best players are plus 30 - giggs scholes van der saar--- all of them have made plenty of mistakes in the past --they all know how to compete consistenly at the highest level.....I think it would be great to get a couple of 28 year olds into our team- the title would be a lot more attainable then- its a mix of youth and old heads that will will the title.... ( mAYBE Im wrong!!)
Lucas Levia and Ryan Babel surely cant be expected to win us a league at their age????Torres matured at A Madrid.... Agger is only 24 so is Srktel.....pennant is young , mascherano is just 23 (isnt he)
I really think we would benefit from adding a couple of these players---- nesta, zambrotta,crespo,juninho.makaay, seedof, toni,sagnol.oddo, cannaravo........

Yeah so true, I mean you don't win anything with kids.

Scholes, Giggs, Neville, Phil Neville, Beckham, Butt etc were all well into there 30's before United won anything.

Or where they early 20's?

Surely that can't be right, they had no experience...

:no

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:19 pm

Pepe25 wrote:Lets take a look at our starting 11 and how long they've been over here, what I'd choose anyway

Reina (3 years)
Finnan (his career)
Carra (his career)
Agger (3/4 years)
Arbeloa (nearly 2 years)
Pennant (his career)
Alonso (4 years)
Gerrard (his career)
Mascheranho (2 years)
Babel (one year)
Torres (one year)
According to GBJH

wHAT EXPERIENCE HAVE ANY OF THESE PLAYERS OF WINNING A LEAGUE OVER 38 GAMES? ???
VAN DER SAAR WAS A CHAMPION B4 UTD
Evra was A CHAMPION TOO
Ronaldo PLAYED IN A SMALL LEAGUE BUT HAD A CHAMPION MENTALITY
HARGREAVES WAS A CHAMPION
Giggs is a champion
SCholes is a champion
They all know what it is like to win a league

We need players who KNOW WHAT TO DO AT HOME TO WIGAN ON A NIGHT!!!!!
It doesnt mean they are gutless or spineless just inexperienced!!!

Think of how good Owen and Fowler and Gerrard and Rooney were at 17 and 18. Don't tell me they can't go out and beat teams like Wigan for :censored:

sake.

Experience doesn't make up for a lack of ability. End of story.

by **maguskwt** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:25 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Rubbish. Experience doesn't give players something they never have. It never has and never will. It annoys me the amount "experts" go on about experience, it means very very little.

Boll0ks Stu.

Experiance and ability are TWO WAY TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS !

I'm saying Skertel HAS the ability, and only lacks experiance : Ie Learning from mistakes, getting caught ball watching etc..... Players CAN AND DO LEARN FROM EXPERIANCE, it has f.uck all to do with ability.

It seems to be everyones arguement, give him games, he'll improve, they never do. Does Torres need games? Did Alonso? Did Mascherano? Did Gerrard when he came through? Did Fowler, Owen? Rooney?

Hmmm I wonder why you didnt use Carragher as an example, because you no full well the geezer has matured like a fine bottle of Red in that position.

I never used Carragher because I've had the same opinion of Carragher since day one and still have the same opinion of Carragher now. I still see a player who is excellent in the tackle, still reads the game superbly and concentrates immensely while giving 100%, I also still see the same player who's not overly comfortable on the ball.

I still see the same Carragher who held a god awful defence together under Evans despite having to do the work of four players.

wow... what kind of glasses do you use?

by **LFC2007** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:28 pm

Fo Dne wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:
Fo Dne wrote:Even Agger who is massively overated by our own, he's good, really good. You can see it from day one, you can also see he's never the best in the league.

Funny that, I seem to recall you rating him as 'average' and in the same category as Kromkamp.

All there is to say on the matter really

When did I ever say Agger was anything other than a good player?

You said he was one of Rafa's average signings, along with Zenden, Crouch, Kromkamp and Carson.

Also, according to you (at least I think it was you) - Sissoko was one of his best signings, in the same category as Alonso, Reina and Fowler :eyebrow

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