The new system, - Where did it all go wrong?

Liverpool Football Club - General Discussion

Postby bigmick » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:02 pm

Some people on here, (myself included) had really warmed to the 4-5-1 over the past few weeks, but then on Sunday it didn't work at all even before the sending off, I was just wondering why.

Is it a rubbish system against really good teams, do we bin it now, do we need specifically a couple of players to make it work, was it just an off day, were we tactically outmanoevred and all those other things which don't involve the sending off.

My take FWIW is this. I think to a certain extent we were slightly "outtacticked" in our set-up in that one or two things which transpired were definately a pre-thought way of countering some of our stronger points. It started with them deciding to mirror our line up on paper, but crucially they pushed Anderson and Scholes up onto Masherano and Alonso, knowing full well that neither of our holders would come out of the pocket. Alonso ended up in a little congested minefield from which he was never likely to emerge with too much credit, while Masherano's afternoon ended in tragic circumstances.

Rooney, with congestion all about him was able to play in the channels, happy to move out to where the full backs were already under pressure dealing to Giggs and Ronaldo. Neither of our centre halves like to come out and play, so you effectively had Carragher and Skyrtel constantly being asked the question as to whether or not they tracked Ronney out. Once Rooney had come out of course, the Man Utd players were encouraged to track in and fill the hole, attack it, ask a question of our new centre half and the goalkeeper. From such a move of course the first goal came. Once Rooney tracked out, Giggs and Ronaldo were happy to come inside and fill the holes, constantly being outside of the defeners comfort zones and in that grey area of "who should be marking him"?

Such was their stranglehold over our final third, that Arbeloa and Aurelio barely crossed the half way line, Alonso and Masherano played within five yards of each other and the two wide midfielders (particularly Kuyt obviously) were sucked back into fire fighing roles, filling in the gaps. Man Utd were happy to back their back four plus Carrick to deal with the increasingly isolated Torres and Gerrard, while as the game progressed they were even happy to allow Evra and Brown to bomb on and cause further mayhem.

Torres was of course hassled, kicked and harried in areas well away from any danger areas, while on more than one occasion Ferdinand and Vidic showed their exellence in one on ones.


So could we have done it any different? Well the fairly obvious difference between the two teams is that Ronaldo and Giggs are a lot better than Kuyt and Babel. For this reason, it makes it a lot harder to pin their blokes back. What I would very much like to have seen though, is either Carragher or Skyrtel being happy to go into the hole with Masherano, and allowing Alonso to advance himself by twenty yards or so. Given the fact that Rooney was often playing as an inside forward I think it could have been done. Failing that, we could have switched Gerrard and Alonso. Gerrards natural attacking instincts would have ensured he wouldn't just have sat, while Xabi could have floated around and been our number one outball. It's crucial we get Gerrard into games as he's our best player, so we could certainly have asked him to play box to box, he's more than capable.

As for the wide lads, particularly Babel I'd like to see float inside a bit into no mans land. He could even float to the other flank from time to time, anything to give us a bridgehead to build from. Playing teams like man Utd at Old Trafford (and indeed Arsenal at the Emirates) I think it's vital that you give yourself a chance of building aplatform so you ca get somethign going, and crucially pin them back to some extent.

I wouldn't be giving up on the system, but it definately needs a little work. We can be fairly sure Everton will attempt to do the same thing at the weeked. Yakubu will float around the channels, while Cahill and somebody else who likes kicking people will push our two holders back. I actually think that if Alonso sits, Lucas might just show the way that we need to go, with one of the holders being prepared to push on at times. Xabi finding this, and the addition of a wide player and/or an attacking fullback are the keys to us prospering under the system IMHO.

Sorry about the long post BTW    :)
Last edited by bigmick on Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Judge » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:10 pm

do you think we should rotate our formation mick?

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Postby SupitsJonF » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:16 pm

I think the main problem was that Torres and Gerrard were getting completely shut down by the defense.  I think a way to settle this is to use 2 strikers against a team with a better defense, like Crouch, who always seems to bring it against the top three teams.

Then with Torres and Crouch being able to pass between themselves, maybe Gerrard can get freed up and start getting more possession.
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Postby neil » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:21 pm

war and peace ffs.
:D




we miss agger more than its being appreciated, Alonso isnt anywhere near his best, Mascherano's antics were ...odd, likewise reina, carraghers distribution ??? gerrards impact? there were too many alien aspects to our players performances on sunday for me to sit comfy, the formation wasnt the issue.
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Postby JC_81 » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:22 pm

I don't think you can put the finger on just one thing that went wrong Mick.

Maybe an away game at Old Trafford is a harsh way for the system to be judged - after all it seems to have worked every other occasion we've tried it in recent weeks.

I think the obvious weakness is that in tough games, especially away against the big sides, Torres will get isolated and Gerrard won't be able to influence just as much as when he's one of a midfield 2.  The reason being that as you've said, our wide men, Kuyt in particular, aren't up to providing the required attacking threat.

I think that the main reason we lost however, and it pains me to say it, is that United were better than us in just about every area of the pitch, even before the red card.  This is not just down to the system we played, it was mainly because they have better players than us, but other factors such as the weak refereeing, Mascherano's stupidity, rub of the green and a few of our players being well below par.  In contrast, most of the United players had a good day at the office.  It was a day when almost everything went wrong for us and everything went right for them.
Last edited by JC_81 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby JBG » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:22 pm

Battle was lost in the middle of the field, simple as that. Anderson and Carrick had too much for Alonso and Mascherano on the day.
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Postby metalhead » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:28 pm

Just a question, do you think Gerrard has the intelligence to dictate games like this? I mean he is a defencive minded player, maybe if we seen him play on the right against the mancs he would helped the full backs, keep the pressure a bit off and bomb forward to help out Torres.
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Postby neil » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:33 pm

metalhead wrote:Just a question, do you think Gerrard has the intelligence to dictate games like this? I mean he is a defencive minded player, maybe if we seen him play on the right against the mancs he would helped the full backs, keep the pressure a bit off and bomb forward to help out Torres.

lucas in he middle and gerrard on the right, yeah I like it.
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Postby ivor_the_injun » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:39 pm

It was just a bit of a horror show all round. I really don't think any blame can be attached to the formation - we just didn't show up.

I'm sure it's a formation that can work against the top sides, but it's in games like Man U away that your wide men will get found out if they aren't up to it.
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Postby god_bless_john_houlding » Tue Mar 25, 2008 11:43 pm

Nothing wrong with the formation against United IMO. We lost because there was no passion in the players. From the opening whistle they looked deflated and looked as if they were expecting defeat.
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Postby JBG » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:50 am

metalhead wrote:I mean he is a defencive minded player,

Eh? Are we talking about the same Gerrard? Have you ever seen him play?  :laugh:
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Postby laza » Wed Mar 26, 2008 12:51 am

How about we just got beaten by a team that wanted it more. Who held their nerves are hell lot more then what ours did
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Postby metalhead » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:03 am

JBG wrote:
metalhead wrote:I mean he is a defencive minded player,

Eh? Are we talking about the same Gerrard? Have you ever seen him play?  :laugh:

I'm talking about Francios Gerrard! ofcourse Stevie G himself  :D

Seriously, he isn't as creative as playmakers like Rosicky, Hleb, Kaka, etc... In my opinion he would have done a better job playing on the right against the mancs.
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Postby ruskiy playmaker » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:04 am

It didn't work because so many players didn't show up, especially Gerrard who is the key in this formation.  However I did mention before Man U game that we should go with 442 for the big games because we don't have enough quality on the sides to penetrate their defense.
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Postby RUSHIE#9 » Wed Mar 26, 2008 1:37 am

Let me start by saying here and now I didn't see the match so I may be in no position to comment/judge.

From what I've read and bits I have seen on the TV to me it sounds like the formation was way down the list on causes for another dismal effort against the mancs.

Yet again too many of the core players failed to show up in any way, shape or form that would lead to us being able to compete with the Mancs.
It's been made quite clear that Gerrard again showed a distinct lack of stomach for these big domestic games. Whether or not that is down to tactics, not having the conviction to think that we have a realistic chance of taking the points from these games or being scared of injuring any of his England team mates, only he knows.
Reina by accounts also had a shaky game by his standards and from the clips of the goals I would concur with that. Certainly he looked to have been caught out on the first goal if not the second as well. Some might say that keepers no matter how good they are will have off days. That's a fair comment but to win these games the keeper must keep his cool and be in tip top form and the decisions Pepe made on the first two goals weren't those of a keeper having a good day at the office.
Alonso's been iffy for a while now form wise but he certainly won't have been helped out by Mascha's afternoon of lunacy!!

The defence also sounded to be a bit at sea and this was probably the first REAL test of a Carra-Skittles partnership up to now. The loss of Agger has probably been hammered home now, we knew he was a big miss but maybe his absence is a lot more damaging than we had realised.

I am of the belief that yet again the team have lacked the conviction to go out onto the same pitch as the mancs and think ; 'We can beat these feckers'.
We are undoubtedly one or two first 11 players short of the mancs but that shouldn't mean that every time we face them, be it at castle grey skull or Anfield, we can't beat them.
On the tactical side of things I think that the formation that we've been using of late has been one that makes use of our current strengths, was it good enough against the mancs? WE'll not know until we face them again and use it for 90 mins against them. Had Mascha stayed on the pitch we may have been able to turn it around  :lookaround , maybe we wouldn't have.
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