bigmick wrote:Some people on here, (myself included) had really warmed to the 4-5-1 over the past few weeks, but then on Sunday it didn't work at all even before the sending off, I was just wondering why.
Is it a rubbish system against really good teams, do we bin it now, do we need specifically a couple of players to make it work, was it just an off day, were we tactically outmanoevred and all those other things which don't involve the sending off.
My take FWIW is this. I think to a certain extent we were slightly "outtacticked" in our set-up in that one or two things which transpired were definately a pre-thought way of countering some of our stronger points. It started with them deciding to mirror our line up on paper, but crucially they pushed Anderson and Scholes up onto Masherano and Alonso, knowing full well that neither of our holders would come out of the pocket. Alonso ended up in a little congested minefield from which he was never likely to emerge with too much credit, while Masherano's afternoon ended in tragic circumstances.
Rooney, with congestion all about him was able to play in the channels, happy to move out to where the full backs were already under pressure dealing to Giggs and Ronaldo. Neither of our centre halves like to come out and play, so you effectively had Carragher and Skyrtel constantly being asked the question as to whether or not they tracked Ronney out. Once Rooney had come out of course, the Man Utd players were encouraged to track in and fill the hole, attack it, ask a question of our new centre half and the goalkeeper. From such a move of course the first goal came. Once Rooney tracked out, Giggs and Ronaldo were happy to come inside and fill the holes, constantly being outside of the defeners comfort zones and in that grey area of "who should be marking him"?
Such was their stranglehold over our final third, that Arbeloa and Aurelio barely crossed the half way line, Alonso and Masherano played within five yards of each other and the two wide midfielders (particularly Kuyt obviously) were sucked back into fire fighing roles, filling in the gaps. Man Utd were happy to back their back four plus Carrick to deal with the increasingly isolated Torres and Gerrard, while as the game progressed they were even happy to allow Evra and Brown to bomb on and cause further mayhem.
Torres was of course hassled, kicked and harried in areas well away from any danger areas, while on more than one occasion Ferdinand and Vidic showed their exellence in one on ones.
So could we have done it any different? Well the fairly obvious difference between the two teams is that Ronaldo and Giggs are a lot better than Kuyt and Babel. For this reason, it makes it a lot harder to pin their blokes back. What I would very much like to have seen though, is either Carragher or Skyrtel being happy to go into the hole with Masherano, and allowing Alonso to advance himself by twenty yards or so. Given the fact that Rooney was often playing as an inside forward I think it could have been done. Failing that, we could have switched Gerrard and Alonso. Gerrards natural attacking instincts would have ensured he wouldn't just have sat, while Xabi could have floated around and been our number one outball. It's crucial we get Gerrard into games as he's our best player, so we could certainly have asked him to play box to box, he's more than capable.
As for the wide lads, particularly Babel I'd like to see float inside a bit into no mans land. He could even float to the other flank from time to time, anything to give us a bridgehead to build from. Playing teams like man Utd at Old Trafford (and indeed Arsenal at the Emirates) I think it's vital that you give yourself a chance of building aplatform so you ca get somethign going, and crucially pin them back to some extent.
I wouldn't be giving up on the system, but it definately needs a little work. We can be fairly sure Everton will attempt to do the same thing at the weeked. Yakubu will float around the channels, while Cahill and somebody else who likes kicking people will push our two holders back. I actually think that if Alonso sits, Lucas might just show the way that we need to go, with one of the holders being prepared to push on at times. Xabi finding this, and the addition of a wide player and/or an attacking fullback are the keys to us prospering under the system IMHO.
Sorry about the long post BTW
Where did it all go wrong? I'm not being funny, whatever gave the impression it was right? A win against a few decent teams, a couple of decent results?
I'm sorry, but Liverpool FC don't have the players to play this system. I've said for years, Steven Gerrard should NEVER play off the front man. Why play one of the best ball winners and most aggressive players in world football in a position which requires the height of game intelligence, passing, movement and touch? Why play one of the best players in the world in a position which clearly doesn't suit him?
I'm sick of hearing the examples of him playing well there against poor sides, name me a good game he's had there against a good team?
The fact is, Steven Gerrard is one of the best tacklers in world football, he can do a bit of everything and people want to stifle his game, why?
Steven Gerrard is either a right sided or a central midfield player. Possibly at a shove a right back aswell.
He's never in a million years the creative spark needed to play in this position, never has been and never will be. He doesn't have the skill, vision, intelligence, patience, movement or touch to play this role effectively against the better sides.
Gerrard lacks a player like Scholes to play next to in the centre of midfield. Someone who can sit, dictate and create attacking patterns of play. Alonso sits to deep and Mascherano offers very little going foward or in the way of intelligence attacking passes or movement.
Thats only touching on Gerrard. For that system to work you need two attacking full backs with good ability on the ball. We have one who's competant (no more) in Aurelio and a player in Arbeloa who should be no-where near a Liverpool first team. As solid as he's been this season he's never a great player and his ability on the ball is quite frankly not upto standard. Still, aslong as fans accept players of this "calibre" then they will often be left wondering why our teams never seem to challenge for league titles.
You need full backs who as soon as you get the ball look to overlap and want the ball, not stand and freeze watching the game unfold infront of them. You need full backs who can get up and down the line and influence a game and push wingers into area's they aren't comfortable, aswell as pull the oppositions defensive players out of position. For example, compare our best full back (Aurelio) to Evra, the difference is a joke. Evra is better in practically every area of the game.
Again, even Wes Brown, a player I think to be no more than a decent premiership player is alot better than Arbeloa in just about every aspect of the game.
Touching on the centre halfs, Jamie Carragher, as loved as he is is made out to be by many something he's not. He's no more than a good club player who gives his all. Essential for spirit and a first team regular possibly, he's one you can get away with. But Skrtyl? I'm sorry, NO! Not upto it what so ever. Don't rate him at all. I personally think it should be one of Carragher or Agger to partner another class centre half, Skrtyl is another awful siging to add to the list from Benitez, how players like Woodgate are continually allowed to be missed out upon and players like Skrtyl are signed without anyone questioning it is beyond a joke.
The wide players, well, thats self explanitory. I liked Pennant alot at Birmingham, I still think he's a decent winger with decent ability. His crossing is fantastic, I imagined Pennant for us with Morientes and Fowler upfront though. Not Bellamy, Kuyt and Torres (who isn't really a natural out an out penalty box striker). I imagined Pennant with players like Robbie who go and attack crosses, who basically want something in there to feed off. None of our current strikers do that and I think Rafa has let Pennant down on that front, he had players who would get the best out of him, then signs him and lets them go. The problem is, without these players he doesn't have the alround game to be effective consistently and his goal return is quite frankly a joke. Something I knew wouldn't be great in the first place, but I expected 5 a season, not 1.
Bennayoun, am sorry, but he's not a wide player. In the hole maybe as a squad player but nothing more. A decent player yes, an out an out match winner, not a chance.
Ryan Babel, I'm not even going into it in any detail. He's simply no-where near good enough and a few tap ins as a sub and a few hard shots will never ina million years compensate for his lack of intelligence, first touch, passing ability and work rate.
To be fair, I'll be blunt, with this crop of players it doesn't matter what tactics or players we play, we'll never win the league.
With the exception of Gerrard, Torres and Reina we are a very average team. Mascherano and Alonso have ability but don't show it enough beyond that theres nothing there any more which inspires me.
I think realisitcally the "squad" is at a decent level, we NEED now two full backs, one centre half one left winger and a striker.
I said at the end of last season we needed a centre back, two strikers and a left winger. I now add a left and right back to that list, obviously one of the problem positions was addressed, its just a shame that Rafa (like to many other idiots) believed the rest to be stronger than they actually were.
like that.
