Liverpool FC Forum

by **MightyLFC** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 10:42 pm

The reason I started this off is because the has not been a forward poll started.

I have choose Kuyt the reason is because Crouch plays like with led in his boots he is good at holding up the ball and thats it full stop !

Dirk Kuyt is a very good player he supports Torres very well.

Sorry I keeped it short and sweet mainly because am tired
Ha ha

Get Voting.

by **weringo** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:21 pm

Not really a fan of either, we should have better options up front than them 2. I chose Crouch though.

by **redhayesy** » Thu Aug 23, 2007 11:33 pm

weringo wrote:Not really a fan of either, we should have better options up front than them 2. I chose Crouch though.

you have just summed up why these topic starters are
just bullsh1t through & through.
opinion"s are one thing but having no fecking knowledge
of the team and what we are all about is another!
my fecking blood is boiling just responding to your
fecking lack of knowledge - it is beyound belief
(or are you on a fecking wind -up mission) if so
you have suceeded :veryangry

by **weringo** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:21 am

redhayesy wrote:
weringo wrote:Not really a fan of either, we should have better options up front than them 2. I chose Crouch though.

you have just summed up why these topic starters are
just bullsh1t through & through.
opinion"s are one thing but having no fecking knowledge
of the team and what we are all about is another!
my fecking blood is boiling just responding to your
fecking lack of knowledge - it is beyound belief
(or are you on a fecking wind -up mission) if so
you have suceeded

Lets say each of the top three - Chelsea, United and us all have one main striker who will start every game, Drogba, Rooney and Torres respectively. Looking at the other options the teams have there are:

United: Saha, Tevez and Solskaar
Chelsea: Shevchenko, Pizarro and Kalou
Us: Crouch, Kuyt and Voronin

Now maybe it's just me but I would suggest the out of the "other" striking options for the big 3 our selection is the weakest.

Kuyt is a hard worker but unfortunately he doesn't excel in any other area of the game. He isn't very fast, he lacks strength, he cannot hold the ball up particularly well, he doesn't have great arial ability, he doesn't create much and he isn't a good finisher. He has decent touch (not anything special), and good movement.

Crouch is better as he has very good touch, can hold the ball up and gets a decent amount of goals for the amount of games he plays but when he plays you will see him spending 99% of his time in front of the oppositions defence which is often the reason we fail to break teams down.

We need more quality up front to challenge for the title imo but I hope I'm proved wrong.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:27 am

weringo wrote:Kuyt is a hard worker but unfortunately he doesn't excel in any other area of the game. He isn't very fast, he lacks strength, he cannot hold the ball up particularly well, he doesn't have great arial ability, he doesn't create much and he isn't a good finisher. He has decent touch (not anything special), and good movement.

This part is ridiculous in my view - the 'just a hard worker' tag doesn't stick IMO. I find it amazing that you say he is not strong and doesn't create much. He is incredibly strong, has great awareness and creates plenty. He thinks for the team and plays for the team and does a cracking job at it. His touch isn't special, but he holds the ball up very well and brings others into play.

by **weringo** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:40 am

LFC2007 wrote:
weringo wrote:Kuyt is a hard worker but unfortunately he doesn't excel in any other area of the game. He isn't very fast, he lacks strength, he cannot hold the ball up particularly well, he doesn't have great arial ability, he doesn't create much and he isn't a good finisher. He has decent touch (not anything special), and good movement.

This part is ridiculous in my view - the 'just a hard worker' tag doesn't stick IMO. I find it amazing that you say he is not strong and doesn't create much. He is incredibly strong, has great awareness and creates plenty. He thinks for the team and plays for the team and does a cracking job at it. His touch isn't special, but he holds the ball up very well and brings others into play.

His 4 assists last year in the PL doesn't tell me he "creates plenty" tbh, Shevchenko who was considered by many to being nothing short of shi.te last year managed 6 and Louis Saha who was sat on his :censored:

in medical for half the season managed 5.

by **Sabre** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:42 am

he lacks strength

I beg your pardon?

Kuyt is a good striker that it's a Dutch international but has the discipline of a lower category player. I think this second season, even if he's as sacrificed as he was against Chelsea, behind TOrres and doing a hell lot of a job, will show he's worth this club.

Lot's of respect to Crouch too. Too much underrating going on here to Crouch and Kuyt, if I may say that.

Won't vote this one, I like both of them for different reasons.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 12:46 am

weringo wrote:His 4 assists last year in the PL doesn't tell me he "creates plenty" tbh, Shevchenko who was considered by many to being nothing short of shi.te last year managed 6 and Louis Saha who was sat on his in medical for half the season managed 5.

Assists are one indicator of creativity, and even still, that stat only tells you the person who 'set up' the goal - when there is often plenty more to a goal than just the bloke who 'set up' the scorer.

If I could be arsed to drag up stats showing you some frankly sh!t players who have provided many assists I would - but I can't be arsed.

Similarly I could show you stats of very good players who also have a low assist rate.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:08 am

Well I'm going to agree here with Weringo, not on everything but in general and especially about Kuyt. But before I go on and say anything slightly negative about him, I will say that having seen him play this season in TWO premiership games. I'm a bit more impressed with him to what I saw last season, maybe its because he's playing alongside a striker in Torres. I think Kuyt should be played in a good run of games togther with Torres to see if they can forge a decent partnership, because so far this season Kuyt has played higher up the field and in support of his partner more than playing in support of the midfield as he did last season, which frustrated me know end.

But Kuyts style IMO is largely down to his work rate, even still. If that work rate helps Torres to score goals then I'm all for it. But if it continues with no end product which is what happened last season, it'll prove a point for me in that Kuyt isnt the player Liverpool need. Rafa has stated in the past that he'd rather four of his strikers score 10-15 goals than two who knock up 20. So if thats the case why did Kuyt constantly get picked last season over Crouch when he was no more of a goal threat than Crouch?

Anyway thats last season, but it still dosnt detract from the fact that Kuyts touch is pretty poor IMO, and his creativity, in that assissting, or making something happen is non-exsistant in final third also. He is strong though, and his heading ability I think is better than Crouch's which is dissapointing for a big man. On the few occassions I have seen him head the ball its been pretty good, with regards to power and accuracy and in regards to testing the keeper. Also I think goalscoring isnt his natural forte either I'm afraid, another negative for me. One, he doesnt take up the opportunities to get a shot on goal because most of the time he isnt in or around the 18 yard box to test the keeper. Two, he isnt selfish enough to be a natural goalscorer, a good thing about being a striker is often to be greedy infront of goal most of the time, Kuyt isnt, whether he doesnt have the confidence in his ability to shoot in an instant or is just typically unselfish. Its probably a bit of both IMO, although by the way he works for the midfield it would probably be the latter.

But there was a fine example of this against Villa the other day when I think Gerrard played in a lovely low ball to Kuyt. Who got goal side of their defender on the 18 yard box. He had that split second to nail it, as the goalkeeper was the only player in his sight, it was an opportunity. But he checked back on the defender who then became goalside and the opportunity was gone. Now if that were Torres I'd of expected him to hit that or ran on to it more, but as it was Kuyt I wasnt surprised by it.

by **Sabre** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:09 am

Similarly I could show you stats of very good players who also have a low assist rate.

Torres, for instance. But assists as in last pass is a basketball concept that should never have made it to football. Last pass is relevant in basketball and when you cross from the wings, but "creating" is a matter of dragging defences too, a matter of subtle touches too. Torres made an excellent play, dribbled Ben Haim in this space, but their RB was nowhere near to assist his team mate (Gerrard saw that), and our other striker was doing his job to allow that being a one on one.

About Bamaga's question I think that our strikers are asked to do a lot of work. For me it was no coincidence that Crouch got a hat trick the day the team worked for him as a lone striker.

Similarly, I think Kuyt could have done more goals in another system. Rafa is Spaniard, he's not defensive but he can't afford 2 strikers without making them work. I think Chelsea for instance had Drogba, and behind him who? I think it was Mikel who's not a striker (I don't know him well but if he is I don't like his style). Kuyt was occupying in our team the same positions as him when defending. He was picked often for his mobility IMHO, just the same way Crouch is useful for deep defences as he provides lots of second chances and holding the ball.

Kuyt runs a lot, and I don't think he runs like a chicken without head. I do believe we're going to see very exciting season in this 3 men (still haven't seen enough Voronin).

by **LFC2007** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:17 am

I think Torres made 5 assists and scored 14 last season. Not exactly daylight between Kuyt's 4 + 12.

But take Forlan as an example, he made only one assist in a 19 goal season last year.

by **weringo** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:22 am

I'm not sure where people's idea of Kuyt being a strong player is coming from, with his back to goal he can hold the ball up pretty well but as for running shoulder to shoulder with a top class defender like Toure or Carvalho, Kuyt aint gonna hang on to the ball for very long.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:23 am

Bamaga man wrote:But there was a fine example of this against Villa the other day when I think Gerrard played in a lovely low ball to Kuyt. Who got goal side of their defender on the 18 yard box. He had that split second to nail it, as the goalkeeper was the only player in his sight, it was an opportunity. But he checked back on the defender who then became goalside and the opportunity was gone. Now if that were Torres I'd hope I'd of expected him to hit that or ran on to it more, but as it was Kuyt I wasnt surprised by it.

There was also a fine example of Kuyt's awareness and persistence that led to us scoring the opening goal.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:26 am

weringo wrote:I'm not sure where people's idea of Kuyt being a strong player is coming from, with his back to goal he can hold the ball up pretty well but as for running shoulder to shoulder with a top class defender like Toure or Carvalho, Kuyt aint gonna hang on to the ball for very long.

He's not quick, hence why if he was in the scenario you depict, he would probably turn and bring others into play. In terms of his strength, he's solid and rarely gets brushed off the ball because shields the ball well.

by **weringo** » Fri Aug 24, 2007 1:29 am

LFC2007 wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:But there was a fine example of this against Villa the other day when I think Gerrard played in a lovely low ball to Kuyt. Who got goal side of their defender on the 18 yard box. He had that split second to nail it, as the goalkeeper was the only player in his sight, it was an opportunity. But he checked back on the defender who then became goalside and the opportunity was gone. Now if that were Torres I'd hope I'd of expected him to hit that or ran on to it more, but as it was Kuyt I wasnt surprised by it.

There was also a fine example of Kuyt's awareness and persistence that led to us scoring the opening goal.

What he did leading up to the goal v Chelsea justifies the "workhorse" claim rather than proving he has any sort of creativity. That goal was mainly about Gerrard's sublime pass rather than anything Kuyt did.

Had Dirk been in the same position as Gerrard I would have been surprised if he had executed a pass anything close to what SG managed (although comparing him to the best midfielder to the world probably isn't fair).

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