Liverpool FC Forum

by **SouthCoastShankly** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:44 am

Sabre wrote:
The best players fight through these times and their true pedigree shines through. I personally don't think either Alonso or Sissoko will start the CL cup final. Why should he? Based on form both Gerrard and Mascherano are a lot better

I don't think Gerrard and Alonso are competing for a place in the team. Different kind of midfielders, different roles.

As for the "Mascherano a lot better", well, I disagree. It's curious that Mascherano's mistakes that almost cost a goal are overlooked and people keep going on about Alonso's bad performances. For me, both of them are making some mistakes, and both of them are showing what they're capable of.

But of course football wouldn't be as interesting if we all thought the same thing.

I think the difference between Alonso and Mascherano is that Macherano's positives are outweighing his negatives.

Alonso's problem at the moment is that he isn't making enough of a positive impact on games to ignore his mistakes.

I truly believe that Alonso at his best is better than Mascherano at his best but based on form Mascherano should start over Alonso.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 08, 2007 9:56 am

SouthCoastShankly wrote:
Sabre wrote:
The best players fight through these times and their true pedigree shines through. I personally don't think either Alonso or Sissoko will start the CL cup final. Why should he? Based on form both Gerrard and Mascherano are a lot better

I don't think Gerrard and Alonso are competing for a place in the team. Different kind of midfielders, different roles.

As for the "Mascherano a lot better", well, I disagree. It's curious that Mascherano's mistakes that almost cost a goal are overlooked and people keep going on about Alonso's bad performances. For me, both of them are making some mistakes, and both of them are showing what they're capable of.

But of course football wouldn't be as interesting if we all thought the same thing.

I think the difference between Alonso and Mascherano is that Macherano's positives are outweighing his negatives.

Alonso's problem at the moment is that he isn't making enough of a positive impact on games to ignore his mistakes.

I truly believe that Alonso at his best is better than Mascherano at his best but based on form Mascherano should start over Alonso.

Maybe, who knows what will Rafa do. We should start a competition to predict a starting eleven of Rafa, I'm pretty sure we'd be spot on only sometimes!!

Another possibility is to play BOTH Mascherano, Gerrard, and Alonso, and this one is my favourite.

by **account deleted by request** » Wed May 09, 2007 12:16 pm

XABI ALONSO has been reassured he remains an integral part of Rafael Benitez’s plans.

Alonso was surprisingly dropped to the bench for the Champions League semi-final second leg victory over Chelsea at Anfield last week.

The 26-year-old, who had previously started all of Liverpool’s key games under Benitez when available, was usurped from central midfield by Javier Mascherano and Steven Gerrard.

It sparked fresh rumours of a move away from Anfield, with Barcelona known suitors of the Spain international.

While Alonso eventually played a part in helping Liverpool seal a place in the Athens final against AC Milan by scoring in the penalty shoot-out against Chelsea, a fit Momo Sissoko didn’t even feature among the substitutes.

But Benitez reckons both midfielders accept the competition for places and will play a part for Liverpool next season.

“I think Xabi understands,” said the Liverpool manager. “The players they know me.

“They know I can change one or two players but that doesn't mean I am disappointed with them.

I was talking with Sissoko. The last two or three weeks he has had more problems because Mascherano was playing well and Gerrard was in the middle.

“I said to him it was not a problem because we will play 60 games next season and we need a lot of good players. We have injuries also.

“All the players must be a little bit disappointed if they don't play, but they need to have respect for their team-mates. Xabi is a good professional and it is not a problem.”

Both Alonso and Sissoko started last Saturday’s Premiership visit to Fulham, where a much-changed Liverpool were beaten 1-0.

Meanwhile, Liverpool have eased fears over Pepe Reina’s availability for the Champions League final on May 23.

The goalkeeper, the hero of last week’s semi-final win, sustained a shoulder injury at Craven Cottage on Saturday but will be fit for Sunday’s final Premiership game of the season at home to relegated Charlton Athletic.

good news on Xabi and better news on Reina

by **66-1112520797** » Tue May 15, 2007 6:29 am

But do you think he's better? we can discuss that if you want in the thread that S@int opened recently about Alonso and his defining moment.

Better than Alonso ?

For me Makelele and Hamman were both better defensively in their positions. For me their more specialised in that role, of sitting infront of the back four. Their ability to anticiapate, read and break down the play is second to none. When in possesion the just play it simple, very rarely will they ever give possesion away, they'll supply a pass to which an attack can be started.

Alonso; he's slightly different maybe more like Pirlo no ? A cultured midfielder by todays recogning (sp) is a deep lying plamaker. He does the defensive stuff excellently well. By Stu's notions

He does them at international class, Makelele and Hamman IMO were World class. But he has better vision and a better pass than either Hamman or Makelele. Which makes him slightly more ' all-rounded ' as a player than Hamman or Makelele.

by **112-1077774096** » Tue May 15, 2007 7:02 am

listen guys, there really is no point discussing alonso, sabre will never admit to alonsos faults (and he does have them), i think alonso wont be here next season, but hey thats my opinion and i hope i am wrong, he is a decent player.

can we afford to do without him? well my answer to that is 'have we won the leauge with him?' so yes we can afford to do without him, i prefer to see mash in the starting line up with gerrard central, gerrard is not wide player, he isnt a winger so what the point in him being there just so we can shoe horn alonso or sissoko into the team.

i think the loss of alonso wont be a bad thing for the club, i think it would be a blessing in disguise

by **babu** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:01 am

peewee wrote:can we afford to do without him? well my answer to that is 'have we won the leauge with him?' so yes we can afford to do without him, i prefer to see mash in the starting line up with gerrard central, gerrard is not wide player, he isnt a winger so what the point in him being there just so we can shoe horn alonso or sissoko into the team.

i think the loss of alonso wont be a bad thing for the club, i think it would be a blessing in disguise

weee wooo.

I am afraid you might be proved right. I love alonso, its wonderful to have a player in the team that looks so good on the ball.

He doesn't mouth of to the press, when he does say things, its the right things, IMO.

He is class, and he has the Liverpool mentality.

Hope we don't sell him.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 15, 2007 8:42 am

Bamaga man wrote:
But do you think he's better? we can discuss that if you want in the thread that S@int opened recently about Alonso and his defining moment.

Better than Alonso ?

For me Makelele and Hamman were both better defensively in their positions. For me their more specialised in that role, of sitting infront of the back four. Their ability to anticiapate, read and break down the play is second to none. When in possesion the just play it simple, very rarely will they ever give possesion away, they'll supply a pass to which an attack can be started.

Alonso; he's slightly different maybe more like Pirlo no ? A cultured midfielder by todays recogning (sp) is a deep lying plamaker. He does the defensive stuff excellently well. By Stu's notions He does them at international class, Makelele and Hamman IMO were World class. But he has better vision and a better pass than either Hamman or Makelele. Which makes him slightly more ' all-rounded ' as a player than Hamman or Makelele.

I think we've found the main spot of disagreement on Alonso.

I agree the point you make about Makelele and Hamman both being excellent holding midfielders, it's their natural position. As you say they don't give away the ball easily, etc.

But do you agree that both Makelele and Hamman are VERY DIFFERENT styles of being a holding midfielder? Makelele in my view is a more modern player, i.e., a player you could not see often before the eighties. He has a lot of "presence" in the pitch and if you put a Km counter on him he'll make more KM than any player in the pitch. Hamman in the other hand was and WTF IS good in that position due to his excellent positioning and the fact he's a tough tackler. In this sense both players are very different.

I cannot talk about Pirlo, because I only watch Real Sociedad games, Liverpool games, and another Liga match per week, I do not see anything about the Serie A but youtube videos, and the few matches I saw in the world cup are not enough to have a decent opinion. But he didn't strike me to be a holding midfielder like Alonso.

Alonso is a holding midfielder, and a classic one in that. Players like him there have been many, Schuster, his own father... as a a hoding mid without the ball, Alonso is more like Hamman rather than a Makelele.

Alonso cannot be an all-round midfielder because he'd be "suffocated" upper in the pitch. He can avoid a player by a turn of his body, but if a second one comes, he's not comfortable to avoid him, he does not have the ability to do that that Xavi, Iniesta, Fabregas, and (I think) Pirlo have. He needs lots of space and is very unconfortable in narrow spaces.

He's a pure holding midfielder, and IMHO very good at that. I'm not surprised Real Madrid and Barcelona wants him, and I think any Italian or Spanish team at least, would sign up him rather than Makelele if they were offered to pick one for free.

He's a pure holding midfielder, with bonus abilities like his range shot, and his hollywood passes, but these are bonus aspects of his game, IMHO. Everytime I judge him I judge him for his natural position, and for the things he's supposed to do in that position. (1)

Anyway you're spot on about Makelele and Hamman. Great players, and in the case of Makelele, underrated in Madrid and the begin of their downfall. Spot on.

Sabre

(1) And to be honest, I think that to play 2 strikers, a winger like pennant and an attacking midfielder like Gerrard you cannot be very good defensively as a team, if you haven't an excellent holding mid, it's not up to everything to have a Carraguer and a Hyppia, on front of them good defensive work must be done aswell.

by **account deleted by request** » Tue May 15, 2007 10:30 am

To try compairing Mascherano and Xabi at this early stage is very difficult. Liverpool have a better defensive record with Mascherano than with Xabi, but Mascherano has only played 10 games and for some of those Xabi also played some part. Xabi also played against Arsenal in the 6-3 drubbing (which can hardly be considered )

I do however feel that a pairing of Xabi and Mascherano would not work effectively in a EPL title challenge. While I am pretty sure we wouldnt conceed many goals, I also think our lack of goal threat would be a considerable hinderance. One off games where we need to keep it tight maybe, as a regular pairing, no.

This means they are going to be in direct competition for a place more often than not (unless Rafa decides to change our formation to accommodate both?) Gerrard in my opinion is more suited to playing central with Mascherano than with Xabi, and maybe this will decide Xabi's fate eventually. If Rafa decides he wants Gerrard central I think Mascher will get the nod more often than not. If Rafa goes for a three central or Gerrard wide and Momo central, Xabi may get the nod. If Rafa goes with Bolo central.... well it really doesnt matter as we wont be winning any leagues anyway

Luckily, if Mascher and Xabi both stay I am sure Rafa will make sure BOTH get enough games to keep them happy, but who gets the nod in the big games may prove decisive.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:13 am

I do however feel that a pairing of Xabi and Mascherano would not work effectively in a EPL title challenge. While I am pretty sure we wouldnt conceed many goals, I also think our lack of goal threat would be a considerable hinderance. One off games where we need to keep it tight maybe, as a regular pairing, no.

This means they are going to be in direct competition for a place more often than not (unless Rafa decides to change our formation to accommodate both?) Gerrard in my opinion is more suited to playing central with Mascherano than with Xabi, and maybe this will decide Xabi's fate eventually. If Rafa decides he wants Gerrard central I think Mascher will get the nod more often than not. If Rafa goes for a three central or Gerrard wide and Momo central, Xabi may get the nod. If Rafa goes with Bolo central.... well it really doesnt matter as we wont be winning any leagues anyway

Could you develop your point about not being compatible Xabi Alonso and Mascherano together a bit more? Why do you think the goal threat would be diminished or that Mascha and Alonso are not that compatible?

IMHO to play a 4-4-1-1 with Mascherano and Alonso behind Gerrard as an attacking midfielder is a good idea. Mascherano has a better conduction of the ball and he's a good complement for ALonso IMHO.

I only see competition, which is necessary at this level, in the 4-4-2 formation, and even then, you could have the Gerrard as a Right midfielder option if you want to play the 3 best midfielders we have.

So in best case scenario our 3 best midfielders are compatible, and in the worst case scenario Alonso and mascherano (not Gerrard) will compete for a place, WHICH IS NICE, because in a top club like LFC there must be that kind of competition. IMHO that's the kind of squad that wins EPL titles, not the kind of squad we had when he had an injury, with Zenden in the middle, or Sissoko as a replacement for ALonso. That's lost points at the end of the day.

by **Ace Ventura** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:19 am

Before anyone even considers selling Alonso,( a notion i wouldnt contemplate by the way) one question needs to be answered.

Do we own Mascherano ?

If we dont and it is only a loan deal, then talk of Xabi moving on is ridiculous.

One thing i did notice by the way, when Alonso scored on Sunday his celebration was more than a little subdued, hopefully thats just because it was a nothing game, and not a sign that he is off, or really downhearted that he appears to be behind Javier in the pecking order when we have a major match.

by **Sabre** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:32 am

One thing i did notice by the way, when Alonso scored on Sunday his celebration was more than a little subdued, hopefully thats just because it was a nothing game,

True Ace. I don't know the reason but I don't think it's because it was a nothing game. But I don't think this gestures are TOO important when it comes to guessing about his future neither. I don't think that would be the way to celebrate his last goal in Anfield neither.

by **stmichael** » Tue May 15, 2007 11:40 am

The reaction to the purchase of another young midfielder has made the possibility of someone making way pretty high. It would be a great shame if Xabi was to leave, hopefully he won't but he will need to step up big time next season. He has played well within himself for much of the season, and hasn't done enough in terms of creating goals or maximising his range of passing (compared to the last two years). Having said that, Mascherano is here only on loan. I won't be surprised if Rafa, with more money now available and no financial imperative to sell, will hedge his bets till Javier's 18 months are up. If he has done very well for us, he will exercise the option on him and make the deal permanent. Then one of the other midfielders might go.

The problem we have is that all of our players seem to be missing a small ingredient to their game - Stevie has lost some of the defensive discipline he had 5 years ago (was almost the weakest part), Xabi has lacked cutting edge in attack (but could easily improve on this to a degree) by playing far far too deep at times, Momo cant pass etc. We still havent found a pairing which will combine everything we need into one package in a 4-4-2 imo. That's why we're almost certain to see a five man midfield in Athens.

by **Bad Bob** » Tue May 15, 2007 12:55 pm

Couple of things about Alonso from my perspective...

1) He has a natural poker face so reading his facial expressions or body language is difficult. Watch him after he scored the penalty against Chelsea--stone faced, with a small fist pump and then a march back to the rest of the lads (and, no, I don't think that's because he's off and he knows it). I've seen the odd flash of anger from Xabi but his celebrations are always muted. I have no doubt he's happy with us and is planning to re-sign and stay for many years.

2) It would be utter madness to sell him if we want to go to the next level. Make a list of our best current players, starting with Gerrard and working down the pecking order. I don't think you'd find many fans placing Xabi outside the top five and many wouldn't have him outside the top three. It's simple: you don't sell your best players if you want to compete for honours.

So, yes, we'll likely sign Masch permanently and, yes, we'll sign this Lucas fella but I think Rafa's aiming for strength in depth in an absolutely vital position. I would be gobsmacked if Rafa was thinking about selling Xabi because he more than anyone recognizes the quality he has and the contributions he makes to the side.

by **66-1112520797** » Tue May 15, 2007 12:56 pm

Could you develop your point about not being compatible Xabi Alonso and Mascherano together a bit more? Why do you think the goal threat would be diminished or that Mascha and Alonso are not that compatible?

At first glimpse, Mascha does look as though (for me personally) he'll compliment Gerrard better than Alonso has done. I think he's quicker, and his recovery of pace is better. He also looks better on the ball in tight situations especially, he's got quicker feet. He can obviously tackle too, and has the ability to play it simple, IMO that is what a classic holdnig midfielder does. Xabi isnt classic holding midfielder, a ' deep lying playmaker'. Their is a difference, where Xabi likes to use his ability to spread and dictate the game from a withdrawn position. Which is all well and good, but like I said before Makelele, Hamman and Mascha are your typical defensive midfielders. Thats why for me Gerrard will compliment anyone of those three players better than what he has done with Xabi.

I remember when Alonso and Gerrard were paired together, and when Gerrard went wondering up field. On occasions Gerrard would get caught out of positon leaving Xabi to deal with the attack. Firstly I remember Gerrard getting the lions share of the blame for this on these boards, I also think Rafa thought that, thats one of the reasons I think he shifted Gerrard out wide the season before. Their partnership wasnt working, so Momo got to go middle and Gerrard shifted, I'm not saying that was the main reason, but I reckon thats one of the reasons apart from the obvious too, Gerrard was moved. I remember Lando, saying something like Xabi has to try and wipe Gerrards @rse. Fingers were pointed because we were vulnrable and exposed IMO with Xabi. That didnt happen when Gerrard partnered Hamman, Hamman was better at dealing with these types of defensive situations than Alonso is IMO. Thats why there ' holding mids'. Like I said Xabi isnt, to operate a midfield effectively with Xabi in it, you'll need both Mascha and Gerrard alongside him through the middle. But if you played a flat four midfield I think Masha and Gerrard could possibly be the better pairing.

Back to you quote, its not that Xabi and Mascha are compatible, but its the fact their both deeper players in midfield. Almost doing identically the same job, IMO only one central midfielder needs to be in the " hole " not two. The other mid needs to be a player like Gerrard to push up and support the strikers.
With Mascha and Alonso deep, where are the creativity and goals going to come from in midfield. Sure we can ask the wide men to chip over the course of a season. But the two in the middle need to add their fair share, and I dont think they would.

by **stmichael** » Tue May 15, 2007 1:13 pm

Bamaga man wrote:I remember when Alonso and Gerrard were paired together, and when Gerrard went wondering up field. On occasions Gerrard would get caught out of positon leaving Xabi to deal with the attack. Firstly I remember Gerrard getting the lions share of the blame for this. I remember Lando, saying something like Xabi has to try and wipe Gerrards @rse. Fingers were pointed because we were vulnrable and exposed IMO with Xabi. That didnt happen when Gerrard partnered Hamman, Hamman was better at dealing with these types of defensive situations than Alonso is IMO. Thats why there ' holding mids'. Like I said Xabi isnt, to operate a midfield effectively with Xabi in it, you'll need both Mascha and Gerrard alongside him through the middle. But if you played a flat four midfield I think Masha and Gerrard could possibly be the better pairing.

First half in Istanbul is the case in point. Kaka ran riot in that first half. As soon as Hamann came on the game changed and Kaka hardly got a kick in the second half.

I think Alonso is top quality but I don't like the way that Rafa has used him as our most defensive midfielder at times. Alonso is far better when he influences the play further up the pitch. In his first season with us he was more attacking, often popping up on the edge of the box joining in with attacks (like against Arsenal at home when he scored one of our goals of the season).

Come Athens, Mascherano is the man to mark Kaka. We need Alonso on the creative side of things because we can't rely on Gerrard to create everything, especially if Kewell doesn't start.

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Xabi alonso - Defining moment?

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