Liverpool FC Forum

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:28 pm

So why won't you tell me Stu, I'm eager to know how using abusive language is helpful to your argument. Sorry it was 'Eds' who said 'Fark Off', thats assuming 'Eds' isn't Stu of course.

How about, 'generally talks Sh!te'. Im sure there are some far more abusive ones than that.

Talk about respect between Liverpool fans. You have no answer because there is no excuse for it.

by **Stu.Murph** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:32 pm

LFC2007 wrote:So why won't you tell me Stu, I'm eager to know how using abusive language is helpful to your argument. Sorry it was 'Eds' who said 'Fark Off', thats assuming 'Eds' isn't Stu of course.

How about, 'generally talks Sh!te'. Im sure there are some far more abusive ones than that.

Talk about respect between Liverpool fans. You have no answer because there is no excuse for it.

When people talk shite, they deserve to be told they are talking shite.

When people come out with pathetic arguements because they don't have a knowledge of what they are talking about, why on earth shouldn't they be told so?

If you can't take being told you're talking rubbish about something you know nothing about, don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Its that simple.

Now run along.

by **Santa** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:38 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:When people talk shite, they deserve to be told they are talking shite.

When people come out with pathetic arguements because they don't have a knowledge of what they are talking about, why on earth shouldn't they be told so?

If you can't take being told you're talking rubbish about something you know nothing about, don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Its that simple.

Now run along.

talking shite to yourself again stu? :eyebrow

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 05, 2007 8:47 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:So why won't you tell me Stu, I'm eager to know how using abusive language is helpful to your argument. Sorry it was 'Eds' who said 'Fark Off', thats assuming 'Eds' isn't Stu of course.

How about, 'generally talks Sh!te'. Im sure there are some far more abusive ones than that.

Talk about respect between Liverpool fans. You have no answer because there is no excuse for it.

When people talk shite, they deserve to be told they are talking shite.

When people come out with pathetic arguements because they don't have a knowledge of what they are talking about, why on earth shouldn't they be told so?

If you can't take being told you're talking rubbish about something you know nothing about, don't talk about things you know nothing about.

Its that simple.

Now run along.

My arguments have been far more coherent than yours and structured in a way that is clear to all. You seem to have have a problem in understanding some fairly basic concepts like the entitlement to an opinion. Just because you don't agree with everything someone else says doesn't mean you should label it 'sh!te'. Why can't you just say, 'I disagree with you, here are my reasons.....'

It is disrespectful, we are all Liverpool supporters, and yet there are people like you who attack any Liverpool fan who you disagree with.

In simple terms it is Bigotry.

Tell me why have you got such an urge to swear or dismiss everything you disagree with, why can't you just be reasonable.

What is the problem, you seem to think you know it all Stu, you don't and neither do I. It is just a matter of OPINIONS.

I've received a fair amount of support for the points I have made in many of my posts, and I am grateful for that support as well as constructive criticism that is also pointed out.

But how does saying 'generally talks sh!te' help the debate in any way? Is that constructive?

by **Stu.Murph** » Sat May 05, 2007 9:00 pm

LFC2007 wrote:My arguments have been far more coherent than yours and structured in a way that is clear to all. You seem to have have a problem in understanding some fairly basic concepts like the entitlement to an opinion. Just because you don't agree with everything someone else says doesn't mean you should label it 'sh!te'. Why can't you just say, 'I disagree with you, here are my reasons.....'

It is disrespectful, we are all Liverpool supporters, and yet there are people like you who attack any Liverpool fan who you disagree with.

In simple terms it is Bigotry.

Tell me why have you got such an urge to swear or dismiss everything you disagree with, why can't you just be reasonable.

What is the problem, you seem to think you know it all Stu, you don't and neither do I. It is just a matter of OPINIONS.

I've received a fair amount of support for the points I have made in many of my posts, and I am grateful for that support as well as constructive criticism that is also pointed out.

But how does saying 'generally talks sh!te' help the debate in any way? Is that constructive?

So when someone states a fact as an opinion you're meant to just sit there and reply with a structured arguement? :laugh:

Ok well then, in my opinion a square only has three sides and theres nothing you can do or say to slate that because an opinion can't be wrong, better or worse than anyone elses.

Also in my opinion, I'm a better footballer than Vieira.

Now, is that talking rubbish or is that having an opinion? Its exactly the same when talking about footballers.

Alot of people here aren't Liverpool supporters and wouldn't know what it means to be a Liverpool supporter. Alot of people on here associate their name with the club because we're successful. No other reason.

As I've already said, I'm more than reasonable, but when I hear people putting across "opinions" on things they know nothing or very little about why on earth should I "be reasonable"?

The thing that makes me laugh is people seem to think when I say something like such and such is better than someone else Its an opinion, its not, its a fact. If one players better than another then its a fact. Some people can't see that fact because they don't understand what they are looking for, some people can see it.

Some people can also see it when the gap is alot smaller. Again though, its still a fact, not an opinion. Its about judgement and knowledge, not about opinion. As I've previously said, Wenger isn't a great manager because his opinions better than Curbishley, he's better because he actually is better.

Simple as that.

by **bigmick** » Sat May 05, 2007 9:20 pm

This was a good thread about three pages ago. Just so everybody remembers, it was all about which players should stay, and which should go. It then went off on a very interesting tangent in which the relative merits of Houllier/Benitez were compared. During this period we welcomed a newbie who obviously has some football knowledge and all was well. It's now descending into farce so if we can't bring it back on track I'll lock it.

Just for the record, Stu and Ed's are not the same person to the best of my knowledge. They do post in similar styles but I think you'll find that Stu's style of argument and the fact that he undeniably has a knowledge of football means he is quite influencial with regards peoples views. For instance his championing of Dean Ashton over a period of three seasons or so has led to there being almost an acceptance on here that in fact he is a better player than Crouch and that Rafa completely fecked up by not signing him. This may or may not be the case (I don't think it is FWIW but I digress) but as yet it is far from proven as the West Ham man has been very unlucky with injuries. You wouldn't think so when you read the "yeah I know we missed out on Ashton when we should have just gone in and got him" comments. You understand I'm not saying Ashton is not a good player, nor that Stu is necessarily wrong, I'm merely pointing out the fact that certain posters over a period of time who argue their point well have an influence over others. I think this is the case with Stu and Ed's.

There is also the other point and one which I stress to a number of people on here and via pm, bad behaviour and disrespect breeds the same. I have noticed a couple of posters and one glaring example changing the way they conduct themselves towards others, becoming noticeably more rude and dismissive. I really think it's not on and wish people would use the "would I say this to this person if they were stood next to me in a bar" analogy before they go spouting off.

I actually read Stu's very best post ever by a mile on here the other day and it was regarding a poem that a very distinguished ex-member on here wrote. It kind of got me thinking that rather like conceding a goal, letting yourself down only takes a second but sometimes it's a big climb to come back.

by **redtrader74** » Sat May 05, 2007 9:37 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:My arguments have been far more coherent than yours and structured in a way that is clear to all. You seem to have have a problem in understanding some fairly basic concepts like the entitlement to an opinion. Just because you don't agree with everything someone else says doesn't mean you should label it 'sh!te'. Why can't you just say, 'I disagree with you, here are my reasons.....'

It is disrespectful, we are all Liverpool supporters, and yet there are people like you who attack any Liverpool fan who you disagree with.

In simple terms it is Bigotry.

Tell me why have you got such an urge to swear or dismiss everything you disagree with, why can't you just be reasonable.

What is the problem, you seem to think you know it all Stu, you don't and neither do I. It is just a matter of OPINIONS.

I've received a fair amount of support for the points I have made in many of my posts, and I am grateful for that support as well as constructive criticism that is also pointed out.

But how does saying 'generally talks sh!te' help the debate in any way? Is that constructive?

So when someone states a fact as an opinion you're meant to just sit there and reply with a structured arguement?

Ok well then, in my opinion a square only has three sides and theres nothing you can do or say to slate that because an opinion can't be wrong, better or worse than anyone elses.

Also in my opinion, I'm a better footballer than Vieira.

Now, is that talking rubbish or is that having an opinion? Its exactly the same when talking about footballers.

Alot of people here aren't Liverpool supporters and wouldn't know what it means to be a Liverpool supporter. Alot of people on here associate their name with the club because we're successful. No other reason.

As I've already said, I'm more than reasonable, but when I hear people putting across "opinions" on things they know nothing or very little about why on earth should I "be reasonable"?

The thing that makes me laugh is people seem to think when I say something like such and such is better than someone else Its an opinion, its not, its a fact. If one players better than another then its a fact. Some people can't see that fact because they don't understand what they are looking for, some people can see it.

Some people can also see it when the gap is alot smaller. Again though, its still a fact, not an opinion. Its about judgement and knowledge, not about opinion. As I've previously said, Wenger isn't a great manager because his opinions better than Curbishley, he's better because he actually is better.

Simple as that.

What you say re: player comparisons IS NOT FACTUAL. It is your interpretation of the information you have at hand, therefore your opinion.

For example nobody can catagorically say that one player has better vision than another ( when comparing relatively similar players, not me and zidane), because the effect of this vision is dependant on the players they play with, and against ,if we talk about players in different leagues.

Additionally you have to have seen a player far more than everyone else here to TRY and say your opinion is correct, and you cannot prove that you have. Neither does it matter that you 'play' (dubious, seeing as their insurance/club would not allow it) with a premiership player.

Do not bother with 'i can tell a player is great in 10 mins', (thats straight from the John Gregory school of management, 'liked the video, I'll take him') because clubs send real scouts lots of times over months to check out a player.

How can professionals in the football industry be so wrong when rejecting players early on, who later make it and are considered excellent, eg Ian Wright, yet you want us to believe a bloke still living at home with Dada is always right.

Your OPINIONS are not that bad, but the pomposity and regard of self importance that you add the posts in, negates some of the decent OPINION you have.

by **LFC2007** » Sat May 05, 2007 10:07 pm

Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:My arguments have been far more coherent than yours and structured in a way that is clear to all. You seem to have have a problem in understanding some fairly basic concepts like the entitlement to an opinion. Just because you don't agree with everything someone else says doesn't mean you should label it 'sh!te'. Why can't you just say, 'I disagree with you, here are my reasons.....'

It is disrespectful, we are all Liverpool supporters, and yet there are people like you who attack any Liverpool fan who you disagree with.

In simple terms it is Bigotry.

Tell me why have you got such an urge to swear or dismiss everything you disagree with, why can't you just be reasonable.

What is the problem, you seem to think you know it all Stu, you don't and neither do I. It is just a matter of OPINIONS.

I've received a fair amount of support for the points I have made in many of my posts, and I am grateful for that support as well as constructive criticism that is also pointed out.

But how does saying 'generally talks sh!te' help the debate in any way? Is that constructive?

So when someone states a fact as an opinion you're meant to just sit there and reply with a structured arguement?

Ok well then, in my opinion a square only has three sides and theres nothing you can do or say to slate that because an opinion can't be wrong, better or worse than anyone elses.

Also in my opinion, I'm a better footballer than Vieira.

Now, is that talking rubbish or is that having an opinion? Its exactly the same when talking about footballers.

Alot of people here aren't Liverpool supporters and wouldn't know what it means to be a Liverpool supporter. Alot of people on here associate their name with the club because we're successful. No other reason.

As I've already said, I'm more than reasonable, but when I hear people putting across "opinions" on things they know nothing or very little about why on earth should I "be reasonable"?

The thing that makes me laugh is people seem to think when I say something like such and such is better than someone else Its an opinion, its not, its a fact. If one players better than another then its a fact. Some people can't see that fact because they don't understand what they are looking for, some people can see it.

Some people can also see it when the gap is alot smaller. Again though, its still a fact, not an opinion. Its about judgement and knowledge, not about opinion. As I've previously said, Wenger isn't a great manager because his opinions better than Curbishley, he's better because he actually is better.

Simple as that.

I devoted a paragraph to 'opinions' in one of my posts if only you'd read it!

Giving opinions over progress and ability are not discernable facts, they are a matter of opinion. For example, many people feel that Momo Sissoko has the quality to be an excellent player, others disagree and feel he will be mediocre 4th string midfielder. That is NOT a discernable fact it is an opinion, therefore you cannot compare it to saying 'I think a square has three sides', that is an empirical fact. If someone wanted to have the opinion that a square has three sides, they can have that opinion, it is an empirically wrong opinion and most people would consider them deluded, but they can still have that opinion, anyone is allowed freedom of conscience. That, however, is taking it to the extreme and is NOT a reasonable opinion to give.

Anyone can have an opinion about anything Stu, I have not gone to extremities in my arguments like saying 'I am a better footballer than Vieira', that is taking it out of context and is unreasonable. I have merely given my opinions over reasonable issues.

I am a real Liverpool supporter and I go to games when I can.

Saying quote: 'generally talks sh!te' is unreasonable and disrespectful to anyone, it should not be tolerated end of story.

We're all Liverpool fans, some go to games, some don't. But their opinions should be respected. I feel you don't show people the respect they deserve when they give an opinion, otherwise you simply wouldn't use that kind of language. I think it's to your detriment.

Giving an opinion over someone, like for example saying, 'this player is better than that player' is not a FACT, it is an opinion. For example, some feel Gerrard is better than Lampard, others disagree. It is an opinion over a reasonable comparison. I have elaborated on this point in one of my longest posts, cited below.

With regard to Curbishley and Wenger, it would be hard to argue that Curbishley is the better manager, it is however an unreasonable comparison. Some would argue that Curbishley has not had the opportunity to manage at the same level as Wenger, rendering it an unfair comparison. Nontheless someone could still have the opinion that Curbishley is the better manager, it would seem unreasonable and difficult to justify that view but they can still have that opinion.

You could argue that the matter of fact, that is to say, the trophies won by Wenger determine him to be the better manager. However, the comparison is unreasonable since they are managers at different levels within the Premiership.

I have replicated my earlier post, I hope you understand it:

"Your convoluted argument that judging player ability or performance is not a matter of 'opinion' is crazy. You take the example of comparing yourself to Patrick Vieira, firstly it would be unreasonable to make this comparison since he is a professional - you are not. Nonetheless, you can have your own opinion about whatever you like. Others can judge that opinion to be wrong, but that doesn't render the individual's own opinion to be wrong - there is a subtle difference. I remember a famous quote from when I studied Law: ' Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign'. In the extreme circumstance that you have cited you could argue that because Vieira is a professional and you are not, the matter of fact defines Vieira to be the better player. This does not mean that in your own subjective opinion you cannot be better than Vieira, it would merely seem unreasonable to the majority. If you take it to the extreme at the top level i.e . the premiership, it would seem unreasonable,for example, to judge Mark Gonzales to be a better player than Ryan Giggs since it would be hard to justify why. Nonetheless (not my opinion), you could argue that Mark Gonzales has the potential to be better than Giggs, since he is only young, players develop at different times, at different rates and by virtue of the fact that the future is unforeseeable. Others could argue that they believe he lacks the basic ability to reach the same level as Giggs, at the highest level of football nobody can make an objective statement as to whether he will or not. The final judgement lies with Benitez, who by matter of fact is more qualified than any of us. Only on the result of that decision can you hold him accountable."

by **Stu.Murph** » Sat May 05, 2007 10:51 pm

LFC2007 wrote:
Stu.Murph wrote:
LFC2007 wrote:My arguments have been far more coherent than yours and structured in a way that is clear to all. You seem to have have a problem in understanding some fairly basic concepts like the entitlement to an opinion. Just because you don't agree with everything someone else says doesn't mean you should label it 'sh!te'. Why can't you just say, 'I disagree with you, here are my reasons.....'

It is disrespectful, we are all Liverpool supporters, and yet there are people like you who attack any Liverpool fan who you disagree with.

In simple terms it is Bigotry.

Tell me why have you got such an urge to swear or dismiss everything you disagree with, why can't you just be reasonable.

What is the problem, you seem to think you know it all Stu, you don't and neither do I. It is just a matter of OPINIONS.

I've received a fair amount of support for the points I have made in many of my posts, and I am grateful for that support as well as constructive criticism that is also pointed out.

But how does saying 'generally talks sh!te' help the debate in any way? Is that constructive?

So when someone states a fact as an opinion you're meant to just sit there and reply with a structured arguement?

Ok well then, in my opinion a square only has three sides and theres nothing you can do or say to slate that because an opinion can't be wrong, better or worse than anyone elses.

Also in my opinion, I'm a better footballer than Vieira.

Now, is that talking rubbish or is that having an opinion? Its exactly the same when talking about footballers.

Alot of people here aren't Liverpool supporters and wouldn't know what it means to be a Liverpool supporter. Alot of people on here associate their name with the club because we're successful. No other reason.

As I've already said, I'm more than reasonable, but when I hear people putting across "opinions" on things they know nothing or very little about why on earth should I "be reasonable"?

The thing that makes me laugh is people seem to think when I say something like such and such is better than someone else Its an opinion, its not, its a fact. If one players better than another then its a fact. Some people can't see that fact because they don't understand what they are looking for, some people can see it.

Some people can also see it when the gap is alot smaller. Again though, its still a fact, not an opinion. Its about judgement and knowledge, not about opinion. As I've previously said, Wenger isn't a great manager because his opinions better than Curbishley, he's better because he actually is better.

Simple as that.

I devoted a paragraph to 'opinions' in one of my posts if only you'd read it!

Giving opinions over progress and ability are not discernable facts, they are a matter of opinion. For example, many people feel that Momo Sissoko has the quality to be an excellent player, others disagree and feel he will be mediocre 4th string midfielder. That is NOT a discernable fact it is an opinion, therefore you cannot compare it to saying 'I think a square has three sides', that is an empirical fact. If someone wanted to have the opinion that a square has three sides, they can have that opinion, it is an empirically wrong opinion and most people would consider them deluded, but they can still have that opinion, anyone is allowed freedom of conscience. That, however, is taking it to the extreme and is NOT a reasonable opinion to give.

Anyone can have an opinion about anything Stu, I have not gone to extremities in my arguments like saying 'I am a better footballer than Vieira', that is taking it out of context and is unreasonable. I have merely given my opinions over reasonable issues.

I am a real Liverpool supporter and I go to games when I can.

Saying quote: 'generally talks sh!te' is unreasonable and disrespectful to anyone, it should not be tolerated end of story.

We're all Liverpool fans, some go to games, some don't. But their opinions should be respected. I feel you don't show people the respect they deserve when they give an opinion, otherwise you simply wouldn't use that kind of language. I think it's to your detriment.

Giving an opinion over someone, like for example saying, 'this player is better than that player' is not a FACT, it is an opinion. For example, some feel Gerrard is better than Lampard, others disagree. It is an opinion over a reasonable comparison. I have elaborated on this point in one of my longest posts, cited below.

With regard to Curbishley and Wenger, it would be hard to argue that Curbishley is the better manager, it is however an unreasonable comparison. Some would argue that Curbishley has not had the opportunity to manage at the same level as Wenger, rendering it an unfair comparison. Nontheless someone could still have the opinion that Curbishley is the better manager, it would seem unreasonable and difficult to justify that view but they can still have that opinion.

You could argue that the matter of fact, that is to say, the trophies won by Wenger determine him to be the better manager. However, the comparison is unreasonable since they are managers at different levels within the Premiership.

I have replicated my earlier post, I hope you understand it:

"Your convoluted argument that judging player ability or performance is not a matter of 'opinion' is crazy. You take the example of comparing yourself to Patrick Vieira, firstly it would be unreasonable to make this comparison since he is a professional - you are not. Nonetheless, you can have your own opinion about whatever you like. Others can judge that opinion to be wrong, but that doesn't render the individual's own opinion to be wrong - there is a subtle difference. I remember a famous quote from when I studied Law: ' Over himself, over his own body and mind, the individual is sovereign'. In the extreme circumstance that you have cited you could argue that because Vieira is a professional and you are not, the matter of fact defines Vieira to be the better player. This does not mean that in your own subjective opinion you cannot be better than Vieira, it would merely seem unreasonable to the majority. If you take it to the extreme at the top level i.e . the premiership, it would seem unreasonable,for example, to judge Mark Gonzales to be a better player than Ryan Giggs since it would be hard to justify why. Nonetheless (not my opinion), you could argue that Mark Gonzales has the potential to be better than Giggs, since he is only young, players develop at different times, at different rates and by virtue of the fact that the future is unforeseeable. Others could argue that they believe he lacks the basic ability to reach the same level as Giggs, at the highest level of football nobody can make an objective statement as to whether he will or not. The final judgement lies with Benitez, who by matter of fact is more qualified than any of us. Only on the result of that decision can you hold him accountable."

You're saying its not a reasonable arguement because it doesn't suit your arguement. Simple as that.

Players are made of different attributes. FACT.

Some are better than others at these attributes. FACT.

Some players are better than others. FACT.

Some players are worse than others. FACT.

All players have level's of ability which make them into what they are. FACT.

Using extremes is as valid an arguement, as using examples that aren't so extreme.

If someone said Paul Scholes wasn't as technically gifted a football as me they would be wrong. If they said he was more so than Zidane they would be wrong.

The FACTS are some players are better than others.

Opinions, and clueless ones at that, come in from not understanding the facts and not learning about the facts.

IE no-one would argue that Cisse is one of the quickest players ever to play for Liverpool quite simply because people know how to judge that attribute.

Its quite simple my point, if you know what to look for you can make a judgement based on fact. Not opinion.

People don't know how to judge other attributes and don't understand player improvement, developement and mentallity. Aswell as growth, they don't understand the tactical requirements of the game either and the overall impact all of these things have on making a player.

People talk about this game alot, they have opinions on it, but there opinions often don't match the facts or the truth.

If someone says Paul Scholes is more intelligent a player than Sissoko, can it be "proven"? No it can't, but it is a fact of the game of football. Thats what makes the game so interesting.

You also like to sit on the fence alot. IE you can't possibly know such and such will be such and such in the future. Well like I've said a million times, if you can't know that, why do players like Gerrard, Fowler, Owen, Scholes, Giggs, Beckham etc etc do what they have done? Again you're going to say extremes but it isn't.

You continuously fail to acknowledge that you don't understand the game by using opinions, twisted comments and sit on the fence techniques to question someones knowledge on a sport.

You also say players develop at different rates?

Again something you clearly don't understand.

You persist on talking about players and Benitez qualifications... What relivance has it? Absoloutely none.

Thats like saying to me if a maths teacher says 2+2 is 5 I should just accept it.

At the end of the day, I'll be proven right on the players I've mentioned again and you'll say it was a guess when it clearly isn't. And again next time it happens, you'll again say it was a guess and blah de blah. Ask everyone on here about my guess work with other players in the past...

Regardless of your "opinion" the fact is you can sit there and say how good a player is. You can sit there and say how good a player will be and you can also sit there and have a knowledge of the game rather than an opinion.

I strongly suggest you go and learn about the game.

by **eds** » Sat May 05, 2007 11:43 pm

LFC2007 the fact that you think I am Stu is truly sad and shows how much of idiot you are. I don't really rate Ashton or Anelka as stikers to take this club forward as Stu does and if any of the moderators bother to check my IP address they can see I am in Melbourne, Australia not in the freakin UK!!!!!!!

I read the comments you replied back to and can't be bothered answering it because as I can see and many other forum memebers can see it has become unintelligent debate. The fact that you pick up my spelling mistakes and argue everything based on opinions rather then fact just shows how insecure and "ruffled up" you have become........ I will not stoop to that level.

If you want to continue this debate at a sensible level and so we can get back on track, as you clearly derailed it, answer me the following questions:

1) How far do you think we are from the title? As in how many players are we short of and how many years will it take Rafa.

2) Do you honesty think players like Sissoko, Kuyt, etc are good enough for us to win the title?

3) If we are good enough to win the CL and be in the final for a second time in 3 years why aren't we good enough to win the EPL?

You views would be much appreciated.............

by **yckatbjywtbiastkamb** » Sat May 05, 2007 11:54 pm

the striker question would be a moot point but for houllier.
owen went because he was ambitious and could see no way in hell that the train wreck that was liverpool fc post houllier could be turned around to compete for major honours in the near future.
gerrard felt the same but felt he owed the fans one last try because he`s a local lad.

by **eds** » Sat May 05, 2007 11:58 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:Eds,

I like your post. You made some good valid points but I also disagreed with a few. I feel that Rafa is very good for this club and will bring us the title - a member of the "Rafa brigade" you go on about.

For me he's the best manager we have had at this club for over 15 years. I can see why he gets knocked but I think you and Stu are too harsh to criticise. Can you just answer these questions:

A) Isn't 2 Champions League Finals in 3 years a brilliant acheivement?

B) Considering Man Utd and Chelsea have both spent a lot more money than us over the last 2 years, isn't 3rd our rightful place at this present time?

Rafa- Dodd,

In an any of the posts I have made, have I ever said Rafa should leave or been shown the door, no! Even when the 'crazies' started calling for his head after the successive losses to Arsenal earlier this season. I still thought very highly of the man, not enough for him to be sacked, after 2.5 seasons, that's just crazy.

I totally agree that he is the best manager we have had in the last 15 years in cup competitions. See this is where some passionate, die hard fans can't understand the reality of things. The fact that it takes people like Stu and I to point this out shows how much passion must off us have that we close ourselves off to the basic reality of things. Has he won us the EPL yet or come close to? The harsh reality is no, he hasn't! And until he shows us that he can stay in the race till past September-October I will continue POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS!

A) 2 CL finals in 3 years is an ENORMOUS achievement based on the squad that we have! But as I keep saying, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH OUR LEAGUE POSITION?

B) In using that logic then all teams should give up because the top 4 will always be the top 4 for spending more money than anyone else. In fact its Chelsea's right to win the league every year because they have a bottomless pit to spend from. Sorry mate I can see the point you are making but I don't think its valid, if Sevilla can get up to challenge Barcelona and Real Madrid and AZ can challenge PSV in Holland, all with inferior budgets, why can't we?

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun May 06, 2007 12:02 am

eds wrote:LFC2007 the fact that you think I am Stu is truly sad and shows how much of idiot you are. I don't really rate Ashton or Anelka as stikers to take this club forward as Stu does and if any of the moderators bother to check my IP address they can see I am in Melbourne, Australia not in the freakin UK!!!!!!!

I read the comments you replied back to and can't be bothered answering it because as I can see and many other forum memebers can see it has become unintelligent debate. The fact that you pick up my spelling mistakes and argue everything based on opinions rather then fact just shows how insecure and "ruffled up" you have become........ I will not stoop to that level.

If you want to continue this debate at a sensible level and so we can get back on track, as you clearly derailed it, answer me the following questions:

1) How far do you think we are from the title? As in how many players are we short of and how many years will it take Rafa.

2) Do you honesty think players like Sissoko, Kuyt, etc are good enough for us to win the title?

3) If we are good enough to win the CL and be in the final for a second time in 3 years why aren't we good enough to win the EPL?

You views would be much appreciated.............

LFC2007 the fact that you think I am Eds is truly sad and shows how much of idiot you are. I do really rate Ashton and Anelka as stikers to take this club forward unlike Eds does and if any of the moderators bother to check my IP address they can see I am in Liverpool, Uk not in freakin Austrailia !!!!!!

I read the comments you replied back to and can't be bothered answering it because as I can see and many other forum memebers can see it has become unintelligent debate. The fact that you pick up my spelling mistakes and argue everything based on opinions rather then fact just shows how insecure and "ruffled up" you have become........ I will not stoop to that level.

If you want to continue this debate at a sensible level and so we can get back on track, as you clearly derailed it, answer me the following questions:

1) How far do you think we are from the title? As in how many players are we short of and how many years will it take Rafa.

2) Do you honesty think players like Sissoko, Kuyt, etc are good enough for us to win the title?

3) If we are good enough to win the CL and be in the final for a second time in 3 years why aren't we good enough to win the EPL?

You views would be much appreciated.............

Stu/Eds/Guest

by **7_Kewell** » Sun May 06, 2007 12:05 am

2) Do you honesty think players like Sissoko, Kuyt, etc are good enough for us to win the title?

can we lock this thread, because i cannot be the only one who thinks this manc is taking the pish when he thinks players like Fowler are good enough to win us the league

by **Stu.Murph** » Sun May 06, 2007 12:05 am

eds wrote:
Rafa-Dodd wrote:Eds,

I like your post. You made some good valid points but I also disagreed with a few. I feel that Rafa is very good for this club and will bring us the title - a member of the "Rafa brigade" you go on about.

For me he's the best manager we have had at this club for over 15 years. I can see why he gets knocked but I think you and Stu are too harsh to criticise. Can you just answer these questions:

A) Isn't 2 Champions League Finals in 3 years a brilliant acheivement?

B) Considering Man Utd and Chelsea have both spent a lot more money than us over the last 2 years, isn't 3rd our rightful place at this present time?

Rafa- Dodd,

In an any of the posts I have made, have I ever said Rafa should leave or been shown the door, no! Even when the 'crazies' started calling for his head after the successive losses to Arsenal earlier this season. I still thought very highly of the man, not enough for him to be sacked, after 2.5 seasons, that's just crazy.

I totally agree that he is the best manager we have had in the last 15 years in cup competitions. See this is where some passionate, die hard fans can't understand the reality of things. The fact that it takes people like Stu and I to point this out shows how much passion must off us have that we close ourselves off to the basic reality of things. Has he won us the EPL yet or come close to? The harsh reality is no, he hasn't! And until he shows us that he can stay in the race till past September-October I will continue POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS!

A) 2 CL finals in 3 years is an ENORMOUS achievement based on the squad that we have! But as I keep saying, WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH OUR LEAGUE POSITION?

B) In using that logic then all teams should give up because the top 4 will always be the top 4 for spending more money than anyone else. In fact its Chelsea's right to win the league every year because they have a bottomless pit to spend from. Sorry mate I can see the point you are making but I don't think its valid, if Sevilla can get up to challenge Barcelona and Real Madrid and AZ can challenge PSV in Holland, all with inferior budgets, why can't we?

it, I don't even need to post anymore.

Eds, you can replace me mate. We have the same view on things.

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