Liverpool FC Forum

by **Ace Ventura** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:12 am

Stu.Murph wrote:Its not an onslaught ace.

It never was.

Under Houllier I was accussed of blind faith. Again, it never was.

Like I said a million times, I cannot accept an unbalanced arguement where this club and its staff (past and present) is involved.

With Houllier I was absoloutely sickened by the way people hated the man. He done his best an give it his all. In the end he didn't quite cut it, but we had some boss nights along the way (maybe some people don't appreciate it as they were not there).

Under Benitez, at times its been amazing, but the fact is the league form with the exception of last season has been a very very average and I'm sick of the everything is rosey and "in rafa we trust" brigade. Its the same people who were slagging Houllier for doing a similar thing.

I've said it time and time again. We spend £30,000,000 in the summer and moved backwards. We are clearly by a massive distance in my view alot worse a side than we were at the end of last season. We've not even stagnated, we've gone backwards?

How can I not question that?

Benitez is CLEARLY a better manager than Houllier and of course he deserves time and patience but he doesn't deserve blind faith and isn't above critisism. He's also made alot of poor signings or signings that off nothing more than we already have.

Its in the market I question his ability, unfortunately I think I'm about to be proven right this summer. If this does happen, serious questions need to be asked. Simple as that ace.

TBh most people with Houllier tend to remember the last year and a half two years/seasons.
Before that he had done a great job in putting the club back on the map, he was consistently improving in the league consistently beating united and everton and won trophies.
People say he was negative but in that treble season we scored over a hundred goals.
I just think that you are being harsh on Rafa to support the argument/debate you have been having with the newbie, we possibly have gone backwards this year, away from home in the league we have been poor again....similar to Rafa's first season, but he will get it right...that is not blind faith, the man is so meticulous i just think that he overestimated the ability of some of our squad players this season.
Hopefully he will sort that in the summer and we can start picking up points and dominating away games as much as we do the home ones.
All is not rosey but its nowhere near as bad as your making it sound mate.

by **Rafa D** » Fri May 04, 2007 11:54 am

duk wrote:So how many players do people think we HAVE to keep if we want to win the league??
How many of our players can we not improve on??

"If you have a car and you win a race, you cannot just settle for that. You must try and make the car better. We're a good car but you always want a bigger engine." - RAFA BENITEZ

There's always room for improvement in any team. The "perfect" team although it may seem acheivable is nothing more than a myth. Ask Chelsea or Real Madrid. They both have in recent years try to build the best team in the world. They both paid huge transfer fees, huge wages, bought "superstar" names and got the very best coaches in the game today. Did it work? No, not really. You can say that they won trophies and played good football, but the reason the owners/president of these clubs made this "ultimate" team was to be the world's best and neither Real or Chelsea can lay claim to it.

I don't think Liverpool will ever have the best players in the world on the pitch, player for player and frankly I wouldn't want them to. As Rafa tried to show with his bizarre but hillarious " if you need a table leg, you don't buy the best one, you buy the one that fits." We need the players that our going to fit into our team, play our style and hopefully bring the trophies home. He's building the squad here that he hopes will go on to dominate competitions for years and years to come. He knows exactly what he wants and he strives to get it, if its right for the team and right for this club.

On the subject of the first team, he likes to use an entire squad throughout the season. Therefore he builds the squad up and places much more emphasis on having the right squad to compete due to his rotation, his tactics and having different options. So we know for sure that he wants a squad of at least 22 players who all have the desired quality to come into the team, do a job and win the game. At the moment we have servere gulfs in quality in some areas of the field like in attack, left midfield, and defence. Here a list of the players who I think are more than capable of doing a job for the team in a title pushing squad:

Reina - For me, he's pushing Cech for the title of the best keeper in the Premiership. Cech is much more of a physical presence and has a greater command of his area. However Pepe is a lot more agile, has better reactions and employs the "keeper sweeper" role to perfection in our team. He's conceded the least goals this year and is a vital member of our squad for me - the penalty saves are just a bonus, but a bloody good one!

Carson - He's out on loan at the moment, but after a good season at Charlton where he was voted fans player of the year, he's more than capable of keeping goal for us in Reina's absence. Will he be happy with that is another matter?

Finnan - Mr Consistent. Is not as attacking as I would like but he knows the style of play and hardly puts a foot wrong. Great team player and typical Liverpool player. If he could sort out his attacking game, would be brilliant due to being able to play with both feet to a similar standard.

Carragher - There's a debate going on in another thread over the validity of Carra's "world class" status. I think thats all tosh. If we didn't have Carra playing for us, we would be creaming over him. He's a big game player, look at Chelsea last week, AC Milan in the final and all his other world class games. "If Jamie Carragher were Italian, we'd build entire dynasties around him." - Corriere della Sera . End of.

Agger - Another great debate breaking out between Stu and a few others. Agger for me is not among the best at the moment. He's not close. However he has shown a lot of potential and I don't buy into this , he can't get any better lark. Drogba made a show of him a few weeks ago granted, but he can build up his upper physciue to make sure it doesn't happen again. Its his first full season in the Prem and for me he has done extremely well. He's shown he's a classy footballer and he can only get better in my eyes. For me, he's better technically than a lot of Premiership defenders, he just needs to get tough.

Hyypia - Our best defender for years, will stay on as back up and is more than capable of it.

Aurelio - Haven't seen as much of we have liked but I feel from what I have seen he can push on and make that left back slot his own with time and work. His passing and crossing is possibly one of the best in the squad, he just needs to work on his postioning but he looked a lot better before his injury.

Gerrard, Momo, Alonso and Maschereno - I've put all four of these players together as I feel we have one of the best options in the centre of the field in the Premiership. They all bring different things to the team and are all brilliant at what they do. There's an argument for all of them to be involved in most matches and I feel very lucky we have such strength in such an important area of the field.

Riise - For his important goals and his versaitility. He can play at left back, but I prefer him at left midfield as he has much more of an influence on the game and his mistakes are not as likely to cost us big time. He's a good player, not a great one.

Crouch - (Wait till Stu sees this

) He's had his doubters since he got here, and I doubt they are going to go away but he keeps proving everyone wrong and thats good enough for me. He's our top scorer in the Champions League this year and I also our top scorer overall. He's not pretty but he is very very effective and is very much a team player. He has not spat his dummy out once over the rotation and is very much part of the team and the team spirit. He brings Gerrard and the other midfielders into the game a lot more because of his ability to hold the ball up. His heading is not the best but he's working on it, but on his hold up play alone, he'd be firsat choice for me most games. Sometimes he can go missing but he's a very useful player. Ask any manager in the Premiership and I know they would all take him in their sqaud because of his abilities and the uniqueness of him.

Kuyt - Just a work-horse? What a load of sh.ite! It seems some people are forgetting how good he looked when he first got here. Does anyone remember his debut? He's looked absolutely terrifiying for defenders in some games, namely his debut, Bolton at home, Spurs at home and he has shown me enough in the start of the season to justify his starting place and transfer fee. Yes he is a work horse - whats the problem with that? he works very hard, harries defenders and is generally a nusiance,but defenders don't want that. Also his link up play is superb and when he does go for it, he can look very, very good. Its his first season in a draining, physical league and he has done well for me. I'mn expecting a lot more next year, and I think he will.

Thats 14 players out of our current squad who I feel are at the required standard. They are all here and doing a good job for the club and I think are perfectly capable of putting together a title challenge.

Pennant, Arbeloa and Bellamy are borderline cases for me but I'd give them another season to show what they can do. Maybe they can so thats why but their performances don't derserve to make them a intergral member of the squad yet. So that makes 17 squad players who are capable of sustaining a title challenge. Leaving 5 places in Rafa's 22 man squad.

The ones who aren't good enough:

Zenden
Fowler
Paletta
Dudek
Mark Gonzalez

I don't think these players will ever be good enough to be part of a squad challenging for the title. Fowlers could be argued, but he's going so don't bother. Zenden and Dudek should be sold and maybe Mark G and Paletta put out on loan but when they have player, they don't look up to it.

So there you have it 17 players out of our 22 man squad are good enough and should stay. 5 players should go and 5 (Voronin is one of the 5) should come in. However if we do sign as many as 5 new arrivals I hope to god Rafa does not try to intergrate them all into the first team at once. But I think he learnt his lesson at the start of the season and was a little less impatient with Maschereno and Arbeloa, much to the benefit of the team and themselves.

Next seasons massive for Rafa.

And Liverpool.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:12 pm

What about Kewell or is he on your injury list ? Bellamy should go in my opinion but apart from him I think you have done pretty well Rafa. Depends obviously on who becomes available in the summer, but as a starting point I would be happy with them. Quality creative players are a must if we are going to make the next step up (even more than an out and out striker in my opinion)

by **66-1112520797** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:29 pm

Kuyt - Just a work-horse? What a load of sh.ite! It seems some people are forgetting how good he looked when he first got here. Does anyone remember his debut? He's looked absolutely terrifiying for defenders in some games, namely his debut, Bolton at home, Spurs at home and he has shown me enough in the start of the season to justify his starting place and transfer fee. Yes he is a work horse - whats the problem with that? he works very hard, harries defenders and is generally a nusiance,but defenders don't want that. Also his link up play is superb and when he does go for it, he can look very, very good. Its his first season in a draining, physical league and he has done well for me. I'mn expecting a lot more next year, and I think he will.

" Yes he is a workhorse what is wrong with that "

Thats his best attribute IMO, thats what Rafa. I'd keep him in the squad no doubt, but he would'nt be an automatic starter for me every game on "work-like" displays. We need to improve in that area, even if it means buying someone to go alongside Kuyt, but I dont think he's the main man to be leading our line.

Maybe I'm being slightly over critical but he can be very ineffective in games, also when Robbie laid the ball off to him against Chelsea the other night and Cech saved. I personally thought he should of buried that, and often enough he doesnt take up goal scoring positions alot of the time.

"I'm expecting a lot more of him next year" Why are you ? And what are you expecting from him ?

by **Rafa D** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:35 pm

s@int wrote:What about Kewell or is he on your injury list ? Bellamy should go in my opinion but apart from him I think you have done pretty well Rafa. Depends obviously on who becomes available in the summer, but as a starting point I would be happy with them. Quality creative players are a must if we are going to make the next step up (even more than an out and out striker in my opinion)

Sorry S@int as I was writing it I was thinking where to include Kewell into all of this. I must of forgot.

For me he has no justification to go into the squad list of players who can definitely be sure of their first team status. Sure he has the skill and I am a great believer in the qualities he brings to the squad but his injury record is woeful and we need him to be much more reliable if we wanted to challenge for the title.

As many are aware I feel Kewell has been sorely missed this year and a fit harry Kewell would take that LM slot straight away for most games. He's the best we have got there. He brings balance to the whole team there and would be automatic first choice.

However unfortunately for us and Harry himself his injuries are wrecking his career. IF he can stay fit he's fine but I don't know whether he can.

If he comes back before the end of the season we will have to see how he performs for us. Rafa has a lot of belief in him as he shown when he started him in Istanbul and the way he stood by him. However with his contract being up in a year in the summer, the club should be very reluctant to renew his existing one because of his high wages, and there would be no shortage of takers to pay him the wages on a free transfer.

I'll be sad but I think Harry's gone in the summer.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:35 pm

In discussing our distance behind the leaders this season vs. last it's worth mentioning that we were out of the Champions League in February last year. It's no coincidence that we put together that amazing run-in with just the league and FA Cup to focus on. No trips to the continent, no hype, no distractions. As Man U and Chelsea have both demonstrated this week, it's very hard to last the distance in both competitions. That goes for us as well and I don't think we've been as strong in the league since Christmas this season as we were since Christmas last season because of our CL performances this time out. We're better than we were in 2005, mind, but the recent games against Villa, Man City, Portsmouth and others suggest that our concentration is elsewhere.

So, yes, while we had an awful start to the season that saw us effectively out of the title race in October, the start alone does not account for why we are as many points behind the front two as we are--we need to factor in the CL run in 2007 as well.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:42 pm

Bad Bob wrote:In discussing our distance behind the leaders this season vs. last it's worth mentioning that we were out of the Champions League in February last year. It's no coincidence that we put together that amazing run-in with just the league and FA Cup to focus on. No trips to the continent, no hype, no distractions. As Man U and Chelsea have both demonstrated this week, it's very hard to last the distance in both competitions. That goes for us as well and I don't think we've been as strong in the league since Christmas this season as we were since Christmas last season because of our CL performances this time out. We're better than we were in 2005, mind, but the recent games against Villa, Man City, Portsmouth and others suggest that our concentration is elsewhere.

So, yes, while we had an awful start to the season that saw us effectively out of the title race in October, the start alone does not account for why we are as many points behind the front two as we are--we need to factor in the CL run in 2007 as well.

But Man United are 18 points ahead of us and only went out of the CL the other day, same with Chelsea. They've both in fairness given it a good go. Plus they've both got to the FA cup final so I dont think it boils down to that, they've played their fair share of games more than us.

by **Bad Bob** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:43 pm

Also, on the subject of Kuyt, I think Tuesday's performance highlights both why he's valuable to the side and why he's also a worry.

On the plus side, he ran his socks off for 120+ minutes without any signs of tiring and gave their back 4 plus Makalele a very uncomfortable time on the ball. That commitment to defending from the front was a big part of why we controlled them and kept a clean sheet with relative ease.

On the negative, he just seems to lack the true killer instinct of a top notch goal scorer. Let's look at his chances. Sure, he hit the bar but I thought he might have done a bit better with that header. And, granted, his chalked off goal was well taken (and no complaints about his penalty, either). But, the one that concerns me is the shot he had saved deep in the 2nd injury time. He struck that ball right at Cech with the whole net to shoot at and all the time in the world to pick his spot. Had the situation been reversed and it had been Kuyt setting up Robbie, I'm sure we would have seen Cech picking the ball out of the bottom corner of the net. In big games, with so few chances you need to have a striker who can put balls like that away. Perhaps I'm being a bit harsh on the lad--his legs must have been like jelly by that point and all--but it's something to watch for from him...how many gilt-edged chances does he spurn?

by **Rafa D** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:44 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Kuyt - Just a work-horse? What a load of sh.ite! It seems some people are forgetting how good he looked when he first got here. Does anyone remember his debut? He's looked absolutely terrifiying for defenders in some games, namely his debut, Bolton at home, Spurs at home and he has shown me enough in the start of the season to justify his starting place and transfer fee. Yes he is a work horse - whats the problem with that? he works very hard, harries defenders and is generally a nusiance,but defenders don't want that. Also his link up play is superb and when he does go for it, he can look very, very good. Its his first season in a draining, physical league and he has done well for me. I'mn expecting a lot more next year, and I think he will.

" Yes he is a workhorse what is wrong with that "

Thats his best attribute IMO, thats what Rafa. I'd keep him in the squad no doubt, but he would'nt be an automatic starter for me every game on "work-like" displays. We need to improve in that area, even if it means buying someone to go alongside Kuyt, but I dont think he's the main man to be leading our line.

Maybe I'm being slightly over critical but he can be very ineffective in games, also when Robbie laid the ball off to him against Chelsea the other night and Cech saved. I personally thought he should of buried that, and often enough he doesnt take up goal scoring positions alot of the time.

"I'm expecting a lot more of him next year" Why are you ? And what are you expecting from him ?

Oh sh.ite I'm going to end up arguing every point aren't I? :laugh:

Kuyt is a work horse as far as he is probably the hardest working member of the squad. However I feel there is a lot more to his game than that and we've only seen it in fits and starts.

For instance, the Bolton game on the first day of the year, he looked dangerous, he picked the ball up and when he ran at the defenders they did not know what to do with him. He looked very scary and difficult to play against. Also on hi sdebut he came on, had some brilliant shots, a good header and once again was very comfortable on the ball. He's not outstanding in one area , for instance, Ruud was immense in the box, Shearers heading etc but is pretty much an all rounder. In the first half of the season, he looked a very good player. The goals didn't come as often as anyone would of liked but he looked the part.

Come the 2nd half of the season, he looked tired and worn out. Rafa played him a lot more than the other strikers and the wear and tear started to show. We've had this discussion elsewhere somewhere and I admit he had not shone in the 2nd half.

However its his first season and to be expected. I expect a lot more next year because for me , in the first half he showed what he is all about. Crouch has got better after his first season and I expect Kuyt to do the same. He knows what to expect now.

Give him time.

by **66-1112520797** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:49 pm

Oh sh.ite I'm going to end up arguing every point aren't I?

What do you want me to say ............. ' good post Rafa ' ?

by **Bad Bob** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:49 pm

Bamaga man wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:In discussing our distance behind the leaders this season vs. last it's worth mentioning that we were out of the Champions League in February last year. It's no coincidence that we put together that amazing run-in with just the league and FA Cup to focus on. No trips to the continent, no hype, no distractions. As Man U and Chelsea have both demonstrated this week, it's very hard to last the distance in both competitions. That goes for us as well and I don't think we've been as strong in the league since Christmas this season as we were since Christmas last season because of our CL performances this time out. We're better than we were in 2005, mind, but the recent games against Villa, Man City, Portsmouth and others suggest that our concentration is elsewhere.

So, yes, while we had an awful start to the season that saw us effectively out of the title race in October, the start alone does not account for why we are as many points behind the front two as we are--we need to factor in the CL run in 2007 as well.

But Man United are 18 points ahead of us and only went out of the CL the other day, same with Chelsea. They've both in fairness given it a good go. Plus they've both got to the FA cup final so I dont think it boils down to that, they've played their fair share of games more than us.

True, but both United and Chelsea are experts at keeping the results ticking over in the league, even when they are not at their best and even when they are distracted by European matches. We have not yet demonstrated that ability to "go on autopilot" in the league and still get 3 points and that's something we're going to have to learn because I don't think we'll ever see Rafa okay with us putting Europe on the back-burner.

Perhaps it's how we go about playing in the CL. Rafa is clearly a meticulous planner who spends a great deal of time preparing the team for battle in Europe. Does this mean that our focus in the league slips ever so slightly?

by **stmichael** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:51 pm

If anybody thinks Kuyt doesn't get into scoring positions because he doesn't want to, or because of some deficiency on his part, then they need their heads reading. I think he's following instructions which is to put pressure on the opposition by chasing and harrying them whilst somebody else derives the benefits of it. Rafa cares not for individual accolades but he does for team ethos.

I'll also bring up the issue of his dad being ill and him becoming a father (first time?). FWIW I think Dirk is a very sensitive and caring bloke, any player who uses a portion of his wages to fund a scheme for the homeless must be. So I think his dad's illness effected him a lot more then we were led to believe. Whats more it is his first season with a new club, in a new league which is a million miles faster than anything he's experienced in Holland. Give the lad a break.

by **account deleted by request** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:52 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:
s@int wrote:What about Kewell or is he on your injury list ? Bellamy should go in my opinion but apart from him I think you have done pretty well Rafa. Depends obviously on who becomes available in the summer, but as a starting point I would be happy with them. Quality creative players are a must if we are going to make the next step up (even more than an out and out striker in my opinion)

Sorry S@int as I was writing it I was thinking where to include Kewell into all of this. I must of forgot.

For me he has no justification to go into the squad list of players who can definitely be sure of their first team status. Sure he has the skill and I am a great believer in the qualities he brings to the squad but his injury record is woeful and we need him to be much more reliable if we wanted to challenge for the title.

As many are aware I feel Kewell has been sorely missed this year and a fit harry Kewell would take that LM slot straight away for most games. He's the best we have got there. He brings balance to the whole team there and would be automatic first choice.

However unfortunately for us and Harry himself his injuries are wrecking his career. IF he can stay fit he's fine but I don't know whether he can.

If he comes back before the end of the season we will have to see how he performs for us. Rafa has a lot of belief in him as he shown when he started him in Istanbul and the way he stood by him. However with his contract being up in a year in the summer, the club should be very reluctant to renew his existing one because of his high wages, and there would be no shortage of takers to pay him the wages on a free transfer.

I'll be sad but I think Harry's gone in the summer.

I don't know mate, I am no doctor but its not like he has a bad knee or something. I mean what are the chances of septic arthritis coming back. His groin injuries have been sorted and shouldnt recur so in all likelyhood hes due a good spell of fitness. A fit Harry Kewell is certainly better than any left sided player we have and also most players we could get.

If we sold him we would be lucky to get £3/5million but how much would his replacement cost. I know we have this young argentinian coming next season (Leto?) but he will need time to settle and adapt. Till he's ready and proven I would stick with Kewell.

by **dawson99** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:54 pm

stmichael wrote:If anybody thinks Kuyt doesn't get into scoring positions because he doesn't want to, or because of some deficiency on his part, then they need their heads reading. I think he's following instructions which is to put pressure on the opposition by chasing and harrying them whilst somebody else derives the benefits of it. Rafa cares not for individual accolades but he does for team ethos.

I'll also bring up the issue of his dad being ill and him becoming a father (first time?). FWIW I think Dirk is a very sensitive and caring bloke, any player who uses a portion of his wages to fund a scheme for the homeless must be. So I think his dad's illness effected him a lot more then we were led to believe. Whats more it is his first season with a new club, in a new league which is a million miles faster than anything he's experienced in Holland. Give the lad a break.

perfectly put dude

by **66-1112520797** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:03 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
Bamaga man wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:In discussing our distance behind the leaders this season vs. last it's worth mentioning that we were out of the Champions League in February last year. It's no coincidence that we put together that amazing run-in with just the league and FA Cup to focus on. No trips to the continent, no hype, no distractions. As Man U and Chelsea have both demonstrated this week, it's very hard to last the distance in both competitions. That goes for us as well and I don't think we've been as strong in the league since Christmas this season as we were since Christmas last season because of our CL performances this time out. We're better than we were in 2005, mind, but the recent games against Villa, Man City, Portsmouth and others suggest that our concentration is elsewhere.

So, yes, while we had an awful start to the season that saw us effectively out of the title race in October, the start alone does not account for why we are as many points behind the front two as we are--we need to factor in the CL run in 2007 as well.

But Man United are 18 points ahead of us and only went out of the CL the other day, same with Chelsea. They've both in fairness given it a good go. Plus they've both got to the FA cup final so I dont think it boils down to that, they've played their fair share of games more than us.

True, but both United and Chelsea are experts at keeping the results ticking over in the league, even when they are not at their best and even when they are distracted by European matches. We have not yet demonstrated that ability to "go on autopilot" in the league and still get 3 points and that's something we're going to have to learn because I don't think we'll ever see Rafa okay with us putting Europe on the back-burner.

Perhaps it's how we go about playing in the CL. Rafa is clearly a meticulous planner who spends a great deal of time preparing the team for battle in Europe. Does this mean that our focus in the league slips ever so slightly?

It would be nice to see Rafa devote more of his " meticulous plans " towards the prem if thats the case. It does seem he's more interested in Europe but surely that cant be true.

The way the teams set-up, its better equipped for European ties IMO. Its a like a well oiled machine and each teamate is working his socks off for the other, to stop Europes top teams from scoring and nicking a winner ourselves.

But we also play like that against the likes of Bolton, Villa, City and Everton when the team needs more invention and creativity to break down these types of teams.

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