Liverpool FC Forum

Emerald Red wrote:Then you mention players like Anelka as being a so called quality priority target for Rafa? Are you for real? As I remember, we had that whinging sack of before, and he never made the grade under an inferior manager at the time, so why should he be good enough for us now?

I wouldn't say Anelka never made the grade. I was surprised when we never signed him permanently as I felt he was playing well for us. But then again, we did have Diouf on his way, so maybe Anelka was surplus to requirements 

Emerald Red wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:Infact why don't we sell Gerrard?

He may not want to spend another season playing in the same team as completely inferior players.

If I recall correctly, Gerrard hasn't performed at his best either this season. He certainly hasn't repeated his antics of the past two years. You singled out players like Sissoko, Kuyt, Alonso, and Crouch as being bad signings on Rafa's behalf. Yet, from what I've seen of these players this season, they've given as much effort as any in the team, including our so called best player and the hub of the team, Gerrard. Have you forgotten some of the 'important' goals crouch has scored for us? The lad has given sweat, and even his own blood for the cause.

Then you mention players like Anelka as being a so called quality priority target for Rafa? Are you for real? As I remember, we had that whinging sack of before, and he never made the grade under an inferior manager at the time, so why should he be good enough for us now?

It's time people stopped moaning about some of Rafa's signings and get behind him. We are now feared once again on the continent, and it's only a matter of time (and patients) before we crack the league too.

As someone said, next season's side will be a good step closer to the real Rafa Benitez's Liverpool FC now that he has the means to realise it. If we arn't winning, or at least finishing a very close second in the league next season, then any complaints directed towards Rafa and his signings will be just!

Firstly I never for a second mentioned Alonso being a bad signing. So get your facts right. I've clearly always listed him as the only outfield player Rafa signed that would help us reach a new level and have always maintained the lad is a class player despite a poor season.

Secondly Crouch and Sissoko aren't bad signings either, but they aren't exactly great and we overpayed alot of money for both players. Especially considering we could have had Ashton and Jimmy Bullard (who granted have missed this season with freak injuries) for about £4,000,000 less who are for more talented footballers and could have brought a hell of a lot more to the club than both of these players. Crouch was the right type of player, which is why he had a positive effect. He wasn't the quality. Ashton is/was.

Thirdly how you can sit there and say Gerrard hasn't been at his best this season is absoloutely beyond me. You don't attend matches for a start so how on earth can you sit there and judge a player you hardly ever watch live? Also on this point I heard him singled out for a slagging away to Aston Villa. He was the only player along with Gareth Barry that turned up for that match. Neither played particularly well but I'm telling you, the two of them stood out immensely as the best players on the pitch and even a clueless fool could have seen how frustrated both players were at the pathetic attemtps at footballers that were on the pitch with them.

You're one of these who thinks if Gerrard doesn't score 23 goals a season and creates 10 goals directly with defence splitting passes he's not upto it... well lad, I'm sorry. But you're clueless. Gerrard does practically everything in the game to an excellent standard. Against Chelsea at home he got slagged for that aswell and he was the best player on the pitch by a country mile, again standing out with his tackling, pace, engine and over all quality, yet he didn't create or score a goal in that game.

"If you remember Anelka never made the grade and whinged"

You've got a memory like a goldfish then lad.

He didn't once complain and apart from one away game to Southampton where he blatently was lacking sharpness was completely and utterly outstanding. The game at home to Newcastle (a game in which he didn't score) particuarly springs to mind.

Also you then slate an inferior manager... Well I tell you what... weather you like it or not, that inferior managers record to date is as good as Benitez. I personally believe that Benitez is better, but so far he's yet to prove it.

The problem I've got with Benitez is crystal. Last season we were unbelievabley strong. For my money last season we were definately the best side in the country from October onwards. Absoloutely pulverising teams in terms of possession and what we were doing with the possession. We looked dominant and strong, very efficient and fairly pleasing on the eye.

This season we've took at least two steps back, I've seen gutless performances, I've seen Mark Gonzalez, I've seen Dirk Kuyt. I've seen Fowler criminally under used, I've seen Crouch dropped when in the form of his life. I've seen Gerrard moved all over the place apart from his natural position (when he got a run there the team settled), I've seen Agger come in for Sami and not IMPROVE the defence while weakening it against anyone with physical pressence. I've also seen the mistakes made at the start of last season repeated this season.

This season I've also seen the "in Rafa we trust" boys defend the indefensible.

I absoloutely hate one sided arguements. I despised it with Houllier and the treatment he received. The club let him go at EXACTLY the right time after his 5 and a half year stint.

Benitez next season will be in his fourth season with a very comparible record SO FAR and I hate the praise he gets when he doesn't deserve it. I do believe he's the right man as I did with Houllier, three seasons in, I'm starting to have my doubts and they are fully justified.

The only players he's brought in who have improved the first 11 we had when he took over are Alonso and Reina, none of the others are genuine quality players.

He's been here four 6 transfer windows and spent alot of money and missed out on some excellent players for the money spent. This summer there can be no excuses. Next season is Rafa's biggest test and I'm just preying and hoping he passes it.

Penguins wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Penguins wrote:Get real.
U ask me if the side is good enough to win the title.
I say no way.
Is that Rafa's fault?
I say no way?
Why is it that Rafa has been forced to make changes each season every year?
Cause of Houlliers dead wood that was a mess and is still in the works of being taken care of. Those wasted 50 million by Houllier set us back years since we don't have the kind of money manure and Chelski have.

And Houllier got 7 years!!!
He won 1 uefa cup and one FA cup. Missed top 4 and champions league football a few of those years.
Rafa was the most succesful manager the 1st 2 years than any Liverpool manager. So this might be the 1st without a title. Compared to what Manure has built up the last 10 years and Maureen spent the last few years, Rafa has had to work with. And still won titles!

Traore, Baros, Smicer, Dudek. All players that may be ok for Villas and Blackburns of the world. They still got a european cup!
Rafa took over a shattered side 04 when Owen was going, gerrard was thinking of going and almost no money cause of the money invested in Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Cisse.
has had to work like crazy to find any takers for those players over the years and still Le tallec, Cisse is on the books.
Not only that Chelski became a team Houllier never had to face. Bought players for hundreds of millions and rafa still beat them in the semis with Dudek, Traore, etc. Only a magician could do that.

But some live in the 70´s and 80´s still thinking we have a good given right to win. We are now the underdog every year. Even Tottenhams and Newcastles of the world spend more than us and get better sponsorship deals!
In todays football spending most normally means best chance at the title. We spend around 4th-5th most and still can end 3rd. Not a disaster to me. I also dream of winning the title but if anyone can make it happen in todays world Rafa can. Whoeever we replace him with will not do a better job with the resources Liverpool has given Rafa.

Houllier was not here for seven years.

We made a profit on Traore and Baros, both of which won a champions league under new management so obviously weren't the worst signings ever made. Smicer was also not a bad player. If you wanted to pick bad signings you could have picked  instead you pick players who won things with us, played their part, scored vital goals and were sold for a profit...

You then talk about Rafa having no money?

I'm sorry but he doesn't deserve a penny the way he's wasted it so far. Bar Luis Garcia, Alonso, Reina and Fowler his signings have been poor to average. He's consistenly missed out on excellent players such as Ashton, Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard and brought in players like Crouch, Kuyt, Agger, Sissoko, Arbeloa, Kromkamp, Josemi and Gonzalez.

He's come in to manage Liverpool and has one of the best midfielders in the world in Gerrard and he's completely chosen to ignore that. For me he's simply brought in to many players who aren't first team material and he's wasted to much money where better players were available. This summer he no excuses. He must improve the team with class and quality.

I'd strongly suggest he signs a FIRST CHOICE centre half and two strikers who will play every week otherwise we're in for much of the same next season.

I for one, am running out of patience with him.

Sigh. Ok, here goes "MR. Fowler is still good enough as 1st choice"

Houllier might have got 6 alone and a couple with Evans, big diff. He had one good year. Ended 5th on a couple of occasions. All his "big buys" were awful.

We may have made a profit on Traore and baros BUT that was all 100% thanx to RAFA and noone else. And why they won the champ league was also 100% because of Rafa. (Maybe 98% in both cases)

Smicer was not a good enough player for liverpool. His goal in final was his 1st in a very long time. And of course those money wasted on Sissy, Diouf, Diao or Cheyrou etc set rafa back alot. Only cause Owen choose to leave did he have money to spend on Alonso. And then he has had around 20-25 million each year which is what Chelski and Manure spend on one player.
And the worst part of your post is when u say he wasted money. LOL.
Crouch is at least worth 7 million he paid. Kuyt for 9 is not a waste. Agger for 5.5 is not a waster. Neither is Sissoko. All the players u mention would bring back a nice profit compared with Houllier's big buys who brought extreme losses.
Josemi cost 2. Got Kromkamp and sold him for 2.5. Wow, what a waste....
And Gonzalez cost practically nothing and will also bring a profit if sold to a spanish club.

And Anelka is alot but exellent is not one of them. Not gonna argue about Ashton and Woodgate, but who knows if they'd be great or not for Liverpool?
Can u see into the future since you say Rafa bottled it up missing them.
Brought in too many players that are not 1st team material?
I totally agree. Problem is Rafa has not once been given the funds to bring in title winning world class players cause they cost 25 million+. Rafas biggest buy has been Alonso for 10.
Chelski's and manure's top 3 players has costed more than our starting elven. And it is not cause Rafa doesn't want to buy top quality but that kind of funds has not been available!

And I agree a 1st choice centre half is needed cause Agger is too young still and maybe he will come good or maybe he won't.
And sure, 2 striker would be nice but that means around 50 million. And I for one see a need for a top class left winger more urgent. And since kewell never is fit he is NOT the answer. Pennant is ok, but not title winning good.

And days are long gone when a team could play 10+1 player= a goal pacher having no impact on overall play.
Modern world class strikers like Drogba, Henry etc do so much work all over the field terrorising defenders, making long runs etc. Fowler knows where the net is, yes. But his overall impact in the game is almost zero. Can't afford that luxury end of.

This shows you don't even know your history so why should I even bother replying to this?

Do us a favour!

Penguins wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Penguins wrote:Get real.
U ask me if the side is good enough to win the title.
I say no way.
Is that Rafa's fault?
I say no way?
Why is it that Rafa has been forced to make changes each season every year?
Cause of Houlliers dead wood that was a mess and is still in the works of being taken care of. Those wasted 50 million by Houllier set us back years since we don't have the kind of money manure and Chelski have.

And Houllier got 7 years!!!
He won 1 uefa cup and one FA cup. Missed top 4 and champions league football a few of those years.
Rafa was the most succesful manager the 1st 2 years than any Liverpool manager. So this might be the 1st without a title. Compared to what Manure has built up the last 10 years and Maureen spent the last few years, Rafa has had to work with. And still won titles!

Traore, Baros, Smicer, Dudek. All players that may be ok for Villas and Blackburns of the world. They still got a european cup!
Rafa took over a shattered side 04 when Owen was going, gerrard was thinking of going and almost no money cause of the money invested in Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Cisse.
has had to work like crazy to find any takers for those players over the years and still Le tallec, Cisse is on the books.
Not only that Chelski became a team Houllier never had to face. Bought players for hundreds of millions and rafa still beat them in the semis with Dudek, Traore, etc. Only a magician could do that.

But some live in the 70´s and 80´s still thinking we have a good given right to win. We are now the underdog every year. Even Tottenhams and Newcastles of the world spend more than us and get better sponsorship deals!
In todays football spending most normally means best chance at the title. We spend around 4th-5th most and still can end 3rd. Not a disaster to me. I also dream of winning the title but if anyone can make it happen in todays world Rafa can. Whoeever we replace him with will not do a better job with the resources Liverpool has given Rafa.

Houllier was not here for seven years.

We made a profit on Traore and Baros, both of which won a champions league under new management so obviously weren't the worst signings ever made. Smicer was also not a bad player. If you wanted to pick bad signings you could have picked  instead you pick players who won things with us, played their part, scored vital goals and were sold for a profit...

You then talk about Rafa having no money?

I'm sorry but he doesn't deserve a penny the way he's wasted it so far. Bar Luis Garcia, Alonso, Reina and Fowler his signings have been poor to average. He's consistenly missed out on excellent players such as Ashton, Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard and brought in players like Crouch, Kuyt, Agger, Sissoko, Arbeloa, Kromkamp, Josemi and Gonzalez.

He's come in to manage Liverpool and has one of the best midfielders in the world in Gerrard and he's completely chosen to ignore that. For me he's simply brought in to many players who aren't first team material and he's wasted to much money where better players were available. This summer he no excuses. He must improve the team with class and quality.

I'd strongly suggest he signs a FIRST CHOICE centre half and two strikers who will play every week otherwise we're in for much of the same next season.

I for one, am running out of patience with him.

Sigh. Ok, here goes "MR. Fowler is still good enough as 1st choice"

Houllier might have got 6 alone and a couple with Evans, big diff. He had one good year. Ended 5th on a couple of occasions. All his "big buys" were awful.

We may have made a profit on Traore and baros BUT that was all 100% thanx to RAFA and noone else. And why they won the champ league was also 100% because of Rafa. (Maybe 98% in both cases)

Smicer was not a good enough player for liverpool. His goal in final was his 1st in a very long time. And of course those money wasted on Sissy, Diouf, Diao or Cheyrou etc set rafa back alot. Only cause Owen choose to leave did he have money to spend on Alonso. And then he has had around 20-25 million each year which is what Chelski and Manure spend on one player.
And the worst part of your post is when u say he wasted money. LOL.
Crouch is at least worth 7 million he paid. Kuyt for 9 is not a waste. Agger for 5.5 is not a waster. Neither is Sissoko. All the players u mention would bring back a nice profit compared with Houllier's big buys who brought extreme losses.
Josemi cost 2. Got Kromkamp and sold him for 2.5. Wow, what a waste....
And Gonzalez cost practically nothing and will also bring a profit if sold to a spanish club.

And Anelka is alot but exellent is not one of them. Not gonna argue about Ashton and Woodgate, but who knows if they'd be great or not for Liverpool?
Can u see into the future since you say Rafa bottled it up missing them.
Brought in too many players that are not 1st team material?
I totally agree. Problem is Rafa has not once been given the funds to bring in title winning world class players cause they cost 25 million+. Rafas biggest buy has been Alonso for 10.
Chelski's and manure's top 3 players has costed more than our starting elven. And it is not cause Rafa doesn't want to buy top quality but that kind of funds has not been available!

And I agree a 1st choice centre half is needed cause Agger is too young still and maybe he will come good or maybe he won't.
And sure, 2 striker would be nice but that means around 50 million. And I for one see a need for a top class left winger more urgent. And since kewell never is fit he is NOT the answer. Pennant is ok, but not title winning good.

And days are long gone when a team could play 10+1 player= a goal pacher having no impact on overall play.
Modern world class strikers like Drogba, Henry etc do so much work all over the field terrorising defenders, making long runs etc. Fowler knows where the net is, yes. But his overall impact in the game is almost zero. Can't afford that luxury end of.

Infact I will do, I'm bored...

Ok, first things First Houllier took over in 98/99 as joint manager with Evans.

He left in the summer of 2004. That means he had 6 seasons at Liverpool FC. 5 of which he had on his own.

In Houllier's first FULL season 99/00 we finished in 4th place which at the time only allowed us to qualify for the UEFA Cup.

In his second we finished 3rd season and won a cup treble.

In his third season we finished in second place, finishing in our best league position over the last 17 years with 81 pts which was an impressive haul.

The season after came the bad summer signings and an awful 5th place.

He was given a chance to turn it round and got us back into the CL before he left in 2004. But was then released at the right time by the club.

So as you can see, not once did he finish outside a champions league place with his squad.

So all in all, stop talking rubbish.

You then credit Benitez for the profit on Baros? How do you work that one out then? Benitez came to Liverpool in the summer of 2004 when Baros had a storming Euro tournement. After that firgures of £8,000,000 were quoted. In the end, we kept him a season longer and sold him for less... A mistake in mine and many peoples views.

We all know Houllier made bad signings. Thats not the point. Rafa has still had sufficient money to spend.

Instead of Kuyt, Crouch and Bellamy he could have had Ashton, Anelka and Berbatov... He's wasted the money he's had on alot of occassions, most notabley Kuyt and Morientes.

We all know alot of what Houllier bought was rubbish. But the fact is he's signed players now (Rafa) that aren't improving the side. He's looking in Aldi and Netto when he should be looking in Marks and Spencer and Sainsburys.

Gonzalez and Palletta... theres £5,000,000 wasted. Kuyt was signed for £9,500,000. He's probably worth £7,000,000 tops. Not a bad player, but certainly not worth that kind of money.

Sissoko was brought in for £5,000,000 why? We already had Hamann, Alonso and Gerrard as central midfielders? Why not spend that money on an area that needed it?

As for bringing in players that aren't first team material, players like Ashton, Woodgate and Anelka are. Yet he chose not to sign them.

He's also not pulled out a Hyypia, Vieira, Pires, Babbel, McAllister, Solskjaer, Schmeichal quality player on the cheap.

Also I don't get where you think we'd need £50,000,000 for two strikers? Ashton and Tevez would probably only cost £25,000,000 if West Ham went down and you could recoup a large wack of that by selling Crouch, Kuyt and Bellamy.

Stu.Murph wrote:

Penguins wrote:

Stu.Murph wrote:

Penguins wrote:Get real.
U ask me if the side is good enough to win the title.
I say no way.
Is that Rafa's fault?
I say no way?
Why is it that Rafa has been forced to make changes each season every year?
Cause of Houlliers dead wood that was a mess and is still in the works of being taken care of. Those wasted 50 million by Houllier set us back years since we don't have the kind of money manure and Chelski have.

And Houllier got 7 years!!!
He won 1 uefa cup and one FA cup. Missed top 4 and champions league football a few of those years.
Rafa was the most succesful manager the 1st 2 years than any Liverpool manager. So this might be the 1st without a title. Compared to what Manure has built up the last 10 years and Maureen spent the last few years, Rafa has had to work with. And still won titles!

Traore, Baros, Smicer, Dudek. All players that may be ok for Villas and Blackburns of the world. They still got a european cup!
Rafa took over a shattered side 04 when Owen was going, gerrard was thinking of going and almost no money cause of the money invested in Diao, Diouf, Cheyrou, Le Tallec, Cisse.
has had to work like crazy to find any takers for those players over the years and still Le tallec, Cisse is on the books.
Not only that Chelski became a team Houllier never had to face. Bought players for hundreds of millions and rafa still beat them in the semis with Dudek, Traore, etc. Only a magician could do that.

But some live in the 70´s and 80´s still thinking we have a good given right to win. We are now the underdog every year. Even Tottenhams and Newcastles of the world spend more than us and get better sponsorship deals!
In todays football spending most normally means best chance at the title. We spend around 4th-5th most and still can end 3rd. Not a disaster to me. I also dream of winning the title but if anyone can make it happen in todays world Rafa can. Whoeever we replace him with will not do a better job with the resources Liverpool has given Rafa.

Houllier was not here for seven years.

We made a profit on Traore and Baros, both of which won a champions league under new management so obviously weren't the worst signings ever made. Smicer was also not a bad player. If you wanted to pick bad signings you could have picked  instead you pick players who won things with us, played their part, scored vital goals and were sold for a profit...

You then talk about Rafa having no money?

I'm sorry but he doesn't deserve a penny the way he's wasted it so far. Bar Luis Garcia, Alonso, Reina and Fowler his signings have been poor to average. He's consistenly missed out on excellent players such as Ashton, Anelka, Woodgate, Taylor and Bullard and brought in players like Crouch, Kuyt, Agger, Sissoko, Arbeloa, Kromkamp, Josemi and Gonzalez.

He's come in to manage Liverpool and has one of the best midfielders in the world in Gerrard and he's completely chosen to ignore that. For me he's simply brought in to many players who aren't first team material and he's wasted to much money where better players were available. This summer he no excuses. He must improve the team with class and quality.

I'd strongly suggest he signs a FIRST CHOICE centre half and two strikers who will play every week otherwise we're in for much of the same next season.

I for one, am running out of patience with him.

Sigh. Ok, here goes "MR. Fowler is still good enough as 1st choice"

Houllier might have got 6 alone and a couple with Evans, big diff. He had one good year. Ended 5th on a couple of occasions. All his "big buys" were awful.

We may have made a profit on Traore and baros BUT that was all 100% thanx to RAFA and noone else. And why they won the champ league was also 100% because of Rafa. (Maybe 98% in both cases)

Smicer was not a good enough player for liverpool. His goal in final was his 1st in a very long time. And of course those money wasted on Sissy, Diouf, Diao or Cheyrou etc set rafa back alot. Only cause Owen choose to leave did he have money to spend on Alonso. And then he has had around 20-25 million each year which is what Chelski and Manure spend on one player.
And the worst part of your post is when u say he wasted money. LOL.
Crouch is at least worth 7 million he paid. Kuyt for 9 is not a waste. Agger for 5.5 is not a waster. Neither is Sissoko. All the players u mention would bring back a nice profit compared with Houllier's big buys who brought extreme losses.
Josemi cost 2. Got Kromkamp and sold him for 2.5. Wow, what a waste....
And Gonzalez cost practically nothing and will also bring a profit if sold to a spanish club.

And Anelka is alot but exellent is not one of them. Not gonna argue about Ashton and Woodgate, but who knows if they'd be great or not for Liverpool?
Can u see into the future since you say Rafa bottled it up missing them.
Brought in too many players that are not 1st team material?
I totally agree. Problem is Rafa has not once been given the funds to bring in title winning world class players cause they cost 25 million+. Rafas biggest buy has been Alonso for 10.
Chelski's and manure's top 3 players has costed more than our starting elven. And it is not cause Rafa doesn't want to buy top quality but that kind of funds has not been available!

And I agree a 1st choice centre half is needed cause Agger is too young still and maybe he will come good or maybe he won't.
And sure, 2 striker would be nice but that means around 50 million. And I for one see a need for a top class left winger more urgent. And since kewell never is fit he is NOT the answer. Pennant is ok, but not title winning good.

And days are long gone when a team could play 10+1 player= a goal pacher having no impact on overall play.
Modern world class strikers like Drogba, Henry etc do so much work all over the field terrorising defenders, making long runs etc. Fowler knows where the net is, yes. But his overall impact in the game is almost zero. Can't afford that luxury end of.

Infact I will do, I'm bored...

Ok, first things First Houllier took over in 98/99 as joint manager with Evans.

He left in the summer of 2004. That means he had 6 seasons at Liverpool FC. 5 of which he had on his own.

In Houllier's first FULL season 99/00 we finished in 4th place which at the time only allowed us to qualify for the UEFA Cup.

In his second we finished 3rd season and won a cup treble.

In his third season we finished in second place, finishing in our best league position over the last 17 years with 81 pts which was an impressive haul.

The season after came the bad summer signings and an awful 5th place.

He was given a chance to turn it round and got us back into the CL before he left in 2004. But was then released at the right time by the club.

So as you can see, not once did he finish outside a champions league place with his squad.

So all in all, stop talking rubbish.

You then credit Benitez for the profit on Baros? How do you work that one out then? Benitez came to Liverpool in the summer of 2004 when Baros had a storming Euro tournement. After that firgures of £8,000,000 were quoted. In the end, we kept him a season longer and sold him for less... A mistake in mine and many peoples views.

We all know Houllier made bad signings. Thats not the point. Rafa has still had sufficient money to spend.

Instead of Kuyt, Crouch and Bellamy he could have had Ashton, Anelka and Berbatov... He's wasted the money he's had on alot of occassions, most notabley Kuyt and Morientes.

We all know alot of what Houllier bought was rubbish. But the fact is he's signed players now (Rafa) that aren't improving the side. He's looking in Aldi and Netto when he should be looking in Marks and Spencer and Sainsburys.

Gonzalez and Palletta... theres £5,000,000 wasted. Kuyt was signed for £9,500,000. He's probably worth £7,000,000 tops. Not a bad player, but certainly not worth that kind of money.

Sissoko was brought in for £5,000,000 why? We already had Hamann, Alonso and Gerrard as central midfielders? Why not spend that money on an area that needed it?

As for bringing in players that aren't first team material, players like Ashton, Woodgate and Anelka are. Yet he chose not to sign them.

He's also not pulled out a Hyypia, Vieira, Pires, Babbel, McAllister, Solskjaer, Schmeichal quality player on the cheap.

Also I don't get where you think we'd need £50,000,000 for two strikers? Ashton and Tevez would probably only cost £25,000,000 if West Ham went down and you could recoup a large wack of that by selling Crouch, Kuyt and Bellamy.

Stu.Murph wrote:

RichardLFC1 wrote:If Bellamy does go then maybe a swap with A.Villa for Gareth Barry. Or maybe with Portsmouth for Matthew Taylor.

Zenden should be sold
Kewell should be sold.
Fowler should be sold   

So you want us to release players like Fowler and Kewell...

And bring in Mathew Taylor? Get real. Mathew Taylor's a distinctly average player who wouldn't be much of an improvement on Gonzalez.

And you want us to release class?



Why don't we sell Gerrard and replace him with Robbie Savage?

Take that back! There's only one Robbie Savage!

Bellamy & 3M for Pedersen? Solves your problems, make your americans dig deep!

LFC2007 wrote:Although I am new to internet forums, I didn't anticipate the level of conjecture and supposition posted on this page. I genuinely can't believe it. The stuff that is posted is typically fickle in nature.

For example, how can you make a judgement like 'sissoko was brought in for £5m - why'........' I'd love to see Crouch, Kuyt and bellamy leave'.

Sissoko is 22, he has shown the capacity to play to a very high standard, he has the desire, he has the impetus to play and he gives us a dimension that we didn't have before. Overall I would say he's been our best signing under Benitez second to Alonso and maybe Reina. He came back from a career threatening eye injury, and although his performances have dipped recently he still has the ability (as shown last season) and desire to be an outstanding player now and in future years.

Dirk Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, he has the desire to win and his all round attributes are outstanding.

You seem to forget that Rafael Benitez won La liga twice and the Uefa cup in the space of three years. He then moved to Liverpool and immediately won the European cup, then the FA cup in the best two finals ever in their own respective competitions. He reached his first 50 premiership victories before both Alec Ferguson and Arsene Wenger and achieved a record Premiership points total last season. Ferguson won nothing in his first four years at Man utd - now he's one of the most successful managers of all time.

Don't you think you should reserve your judgement on the signings he has made and the value he has added to the ones he has sold.

Benitez sold Baros for £6.5m, after winning the champions league in games where Baros played- and in some played well. He unquestionably added value to him during that season, for a player who under Houllier had not performed I'd say a doubling in value is pretty healthy.

There is no point in destroying the progress that has been made under Benitez by making wholesale changes in the summer, Kuyt, Crouch and maybe Bellamy will all have a part to play in the future. It is wise to add a few quality players in required positions but not get rid of key players who have shown their ability.

There also seems to be a very one dimensional aspect in terms of transfers, a 'we should sign this player or that player'  attitude - how qualified are you compared to Benitez?.
There are many dimensions to signing a player - not just their on field ability - for example, Houllier passed up the opportunity to sign Lee Bowyer because of his attitude. Benitez will be much the same in his judgements.

I do go to matches at Anfield and I'm glad to say that the real fans of Liverpool know that the club lies in good hands and excellent management. Unlike some of the people on this forum.

LFC2007 wrote:Although I am new to internet forums, I didn't anticipate the level of conjecture and supposition posted on this page. I genuinely can't believe it. The stuff that is posted is typically fickle in nature.

For example, how can you make a judgement like 'sissoko was brought in for £5m - why'........' I'd love to see Crouch, Kuyt and bellamy leave'.

Sissoko is 22, he has shown the capacity to play to a very high standard, he has the desire, he has the impetus to play and he gives us a dimension that we didn't have before. Overall I would say he's been our best signing under Benitez second to Alonso and maybe Reina. He came back from a career threatening eye injury, and although his performances have dipped recently he still has the ability (as shown last season) and desire to be an outstanding player now and in future years.

Dirk Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, he has the desire to win and his all round attributes are outstanding.

You seem to forget that Rafael Benitez won La liga twice and the Uefa cup in the space of three years. He then moved to Liverpool and immediately won the European cup, then the FA cup in the best two finals ever in their own respective competitions. He reached his first 50 premiership victories before both Alec Ferguson and Arsene Wenger and achieved a record Premiership points total last season. Ferguson won nothing in his first four years at Man utd - now he's one of the most successful managers of all time.

Don't you think you should reserve your judgement on the signings he has made and the value he has added to the ones he has sold.

Benitez sold Baros for £6.5m, after winning the champions league in games where Baros played- and in some played well. He unquestionably added value to him during that season, for a player who under Houllier had not performed I'd say a doubling in value is pretty healthy.

There is no point in destroying the progress that has been made under Benitez by making wholesale changes in the summer, Kuyt, Crouch and maybe Bellamy will all have a part to play in the future. It is wise to add a few quality players in required positions but not get rid of key players who have shown their ability.

There also seems to be a very one dimensional aspect in terms of transfers, a 'we should sign this player or that player'  attitude - how qualified are you compared to Benitez?.
There are many dimensions to signing a player - not just their on field ability - for example, Houllier passed up the opportunity to sign Lee Bowyer because of his attitude. Benitez will be much the same in his judgements.

I do go to matches at Anfield and I'm glad to say that the real fans of Liverpool know that the club lies in good hands and excellent management. Unlike some of the people on this forum.

we are not all cynical no it all morons on this site,  , although i must agree with your comments.

Benitez is competing with a 20yr manager with massive funds, a 10 yr mgr and a mgr where money and therefore players are no object. He's learnt the language and culture in a short time.

The CL success alone has elevated him to ONE of the best mgrs LFC have had. Houllier,Evan, Souness were never as far behind in funds as he is right now, and yet we are in semi of CL. Give him time, he has a plan and method which could yet land us the title. Funnily enough i don't think that anyone here can be so sure they know better than him. I always thought our anthem was ynwa?? Not Fu(k Off we know better than you.

LFC2007 wrote:Although I am new to internet forums, I didn't anticipate the level of conjecture and supposition posted on this page. I genuinely can't believe it. The stuff that is posted is typically fickle in nature.

For example, how can you make a judgement like 'sissoko was brought in for £5m - why'........' I'd love to see Crouch, Kuyt and bellamy leave'.

Sissoko is 22, he has shown the capacity to play to a very high standard, he has the desire, he has the impetus to play and he gives us a dimension that we didn't have before. Overall I would say he's been our best signing under Benitez second to Alonso and maybe Reina. He came back from a career threatening eye injury, and although his performances have dipped recently he still has the ability (as shown last season) and desire to be an outstanding player now and in future years.

Dirk Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, he has the desire to win and his all round attributes are outstanding.

You seem to forget that Rafael Benitez won La liga twice and the Uefa cup in the space of three years. He then moved to Liverpool and immediately won the European cup, then the FA cup in the best two finals ever in their own respective competitions. He reached his first 50 premiership victories before both Alec Ferguson and Arsene Wenger and achieved a record Premiership points total last season. Ferguson won nothing in his first four years at Man utd - now he's one of the most successful managers of all time.

Don't you think you should reserve your judgement on the signings he has made and the value he has added to the ones he has sold.

Benitez sold Baros for £6.5m, after winning the champions league in games where Baros played- and in some played well. He unquestionably added value to him during that season, for a player who under Houllier had not performed I'd say a doubling in value is pretty healthy.

There is no point in destroying the progress that has been made under Benitez by making wholesale changes in the summer, Kuyt, Crouch and maybe Bellamy will all have a part to play in the future. It is wise to add a few quality players in required positions but not get rid of key players who have shown their ability.

There also seems to be a very one dimensional aspect in terms of transfers, a 'we should sign this player or that player'  attitude - how qualified are you compared to Benitez?.
There are many dimensions to signing a player - not just their on field ability - for example, Houllier passed up the opportunity to sign Lee Bowyer because of his attitude. Benitez will be much the same in his judgements.

I do go to matches at Anfield and I'm glad to say that the real fans of Liverpool know that the club lies in good hands and excellent management. Unlike some of the people on this forum.

Its not fickle at all, to be quite honest I find posts like this absoloutely laughable and am quite happy to rip such posts to shreds.

Lets start at the top, firstly you don't know me, my background, my opinions and my judgement. You also have absoloutely no idea tactically how much I understand the game or to what level I've played the game aswell as who I've coached. You also have no idea what professional's and very well qualified people I actually know and converse with daily.

Now, the answer to all of those maybe none, then again it may be something, however, for you to come on here and judge like that automatically suggests a level of ignorance/ficklness which you are accussing others of so before you endear yourself to long serving members I suggest you sit back read and learn. Granted, you may think you're above learning and know the sport inside out. I'd disagree with you there and say anybody is capable of saying something which triggers a line of thought which before you've never even thought of.

There are many excellent posters on this site with balanced views and people who actually know there football. I suggest you read them before jumping to conclusions.

Now on the first player you mention Sissoko. If you actually care to drag up a Sissoko thread from a about a year ago you will see I pointed out flaws in his game and said the lad will never become "the new Vieira". At the time I was absoloutely slaughtered for these views and called all the names under the sun. Now a year later, alot of people are repeating what I said at the time. IE he's a very good player who can win the ball, has a decent brain but is technically not upto scratch. Now another saying I will point out to you, you can't make diamonds out of shit.

Its the same in football. Professional players never ever learn to be something they aren't. They never become something they were not and are not. IE technically poor players don't become Zidane's, Players like Luis Garcia and Smicer will never become centre halfs. Footballers develop from a very early age which is why alot of teams these days sign players at silly ages.

Now what I've said over the years is players have a level of ability which rarely changes through out a career. It will obviously increase slightly with experience and growth but it can also decrease after injury or if an attitude of a player changes.

If you look at Steven Gerrard now to when he was a young kid in the reserves... as a kid, he was a box to box ball winning midfielder with a sublime shot on him. He had excellent determination and a very good aggression and intensity to his game. He's not the best with his choice of pass but in general is very good. His ability to beat a man has always been decent but not excellent. Now, he's exactly the same only he's 6'1 and build like a brick and one of the fastest players in the premier league.

My point? Players don't ever become something they aren't.

What you see, is what you get. They learn to play to their attributes and obviously form a level of consistency in there attributes through training but you will NEVER see a player like Baros learn to play with his head up (if he could just do that he'll be world class, he'll learn they said) He didn't. He was sold. Sissoko (he'll learn to pass and learn the right pass). I've got news for you, he won't. If he can't pass a ball at 22, he's got no chance and for anyone to think otherwise is simply delussional and clueless.

You then go on to Dirk Kuyt. I'm sorry but I completely disagree. He's a good player, nothing more. He doesn't attack his near post, he doesn't anticipate the flight of the ball, he's poor at heading for a premiership striker, he's a decent finisher but doesn't have the ability to consistently get into finishing positions either via pace or by reading the ball quicker than a centre half. He will never consistently score goals against the better sides due to this. He's also got a very heavy first touch and often holds the ball up at times when it would be a hell of a lot better to continue with a quick attack. He often puts a foot on the ball and takes to many touches. Yes he's a trier, yes he's decent, but good enuogh to lead a line at a club like Liverpool?

Owen, Fowler, Rush... Sorry, not even half the player any of those are/were.

What I also don't forget is what Benitez done in Spain. Nore do I actually care anymore. Its about what he's done here and what he's doing now. I am absoloutely fed up with the give him time attitude and the "it took such and such a season or two" excuses. It doesn't, class shows as a manager and as a player. In the league we made unbelievable progress last year. Then I have spend thousands this season (which going back I'd have saved towards my house) watching gutless, spineless and generally poor performances this season from a team who's clearly took two steps backwards.

You then go onto Milan Baros. After Euro 2004 he was valued at around £8,500,000 roughly. After that tournement I again stuck my neck out and said I never saw anything from him in that tournement I didn't see for Liverpool and he'd never make the grade at this club. I was told "give him time, he's potentially world class", I was slated again left right and centre, simply because I could see the lad wasn't good enough. One fool even told me the lad was a better player than Owen.

Not one to be persueded by mass opinion I stuck to my guns YET AGAIN! As I did with Carragher and Finnan before him and low and behold. Come the summer, everyone realises that despite the euro cup win, in which of course he played his part he was not upto it. Hence the reason he was sold. Under Houllier Baros performed when called upon. The only time he failed to perform was when injured. He was a nothing player in the end. Something I spotted early and was called everything for for saying after he had a good Euro 2004.

Now the progress under Benitez... What progress? This season we've made none. We've gone backwards after going forwards last season. This season has reminded me of Houllier final two seasons if I'm honest. IE NOT GOOD ENOUGH and no european trophy will ever make me think that a step backwards in your "bread and butter" (to quote a genius) is acceptable.

I also CLEARLY DON'T suggest getting rid of key players. I suggest getting rid of weak links. IE our strikers. I also suggest strengthening the area's that need strengthening. A centre half, a left winger (if theres one as good as Kewell that can be found) and AT LEAST 2 strikers. For people to sit there and say Kuyt and Crouch are good enough is madness. The two of them have cost us to many games this season and to many point. Its as simple as that. I remember with Owen and Fowler upfront a few years ago. You could garentee if one didn't score the other would. This strike force simply has nothing approaching that what so ever.

In terms of the rigidness in the transfers and players I'd like to see there are reasons for it all. The style of players important and what he can bring to the team. I'm not some mindless idiot who says "go and sign Defoe and Owen because they're boss" or sign "Ashton and Luca Toni cos they're beasts".

Every player I put forward for debate has a reason, a realistic chance of being signed and has the required quality aswell as style to fit into roles and systems. Its a case of signing players who are better than what you have already but can bring the same things but with more alround quality.

On the subject of "knowing more than Benitez". This is a subject which absoloutely 100% infuriates me and winds me up to boiling point. Did i know Gonzalez was before he signed? Yes, did I know Bellamy wouldn't be the answer, yes again. Did I also know that playing a weakened team against Sheffield United in the first away game of the season was a mistake? Yes. Did I also know that he made these mistakes last season? Yes. Benitez is not infalible and before the Idiots start I'm not saying I know everything Benitez knows nothing. I'm saying Benitez doesn't know everything, gets things wrong and theres certain things he gets wrong that I wouldn't get wrong.

I had a similar conversation with Peewee recently. Anybody can learn anything from anyone if that person has half a clue what they are talking about. Rafael Benitez is absoloutely no different what so ever and it absoloutely smacks of ignorance and stupidity (Peewee take note) when you dismiss something or someone's arguement without even reading it due to having more experience or knowledge about something. I quite often dismiss arguements on here and I'll often rip people to shreds but at no point will I simply ignore the comments made without thinking about them in context.

Benitez bangs on about getting that extra couple of percent out of players due to fitness and rotation aswell. What he then fails to mention is that extra couple of percent you get when players know there role, there team mates roles and attributes around them aswell. IE do you play the through ball for Kuyt to run onto? If you don't know him as a player you may hesitate and blow the chance, you may play it with to much pace on him, you may decide he'd never get it yet he actually would, where as if you play regularly together its a case of the player can usually make the right decision. It happens at every level, be it Sunday league or Premiership. Learning about the players around you.

Also good for you going to games. I'm truely made up for you.

I also attend home, away, europe, home and away and have been to all the cup finals since 94 so don't even try to come across the high and mighty. I'm as scouse as they come and am proud of it aswell.

I'm quite simply not for the everything is rosey in the garden look. I done that under Houllier and I'm never going to fall for that again ever as long as I live.

We haven't won a title in 17 years, we are a hell of a lot further away than we were last season. Now ask yourself why!

Unlucky you say?

Maybe thats the reason we've not won a title in 17 years then. You've cracked it.

Good night!

Penguins wrote:At least LFC2007 and emerald red talks some common sense.
Howcome you are the only one with a very different view Stu?

Ah, everyone else must be wrong, sorry then...

Probably because I have my own informed opinion and do do this...



Nuff said.

Rafa-Dodd wrote:

LFC2007 wrote:Although I am new to internet forums, I didn't anticipate the level of conjecture and supposition posted on this page. I genuinely can't believe it. The stuff that is posted is typically fickle in nature.

For example, how can you make a judgement like 'sissoko was brought in for £5m - why'........' I'd love to see Crouch, Kuyt and bellamy leave'.

Sissoko is 22, he has shown the capacity to play to a very high standard, he has the desire, he has the impetus to play and he gives us a dimension that we didn't have before. Overall I would say he's been our best signing under Benitez second to Alonso and maybe Reina. He came back from a career threatening eye injury, and although his performances have dipped recently he still has the ability (as shown last season) and desire to be an outstanding player now and in future years.

Dirk Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, he has the desire to win and his all round attributes are outstanding.

You seem to forget that Rafael Benitez won La liga twice and the Uefa cup in the space of three years. He then moved to Liverpool and immediately won the European cup, then the FA cup in the best two finals ever in their own respective competitions. He reached his first 50 premiership victories before both Alec Ferguson and Arsene Wenger and achieved a record Premiership points total last season. Ferguson won nothing in his first four years at Man utd - now he's one of the most successful managers of all time.

Don't you think you should reserve your judgement on the signings he has made and the value he has added to the ones he has sold.

Benitez sold Baros for £6.5m, after winning the champions league in games where Baros played- and in some played well. He unquestionably added value to him during that season, for a player who under Houllier had not performed I'd say a doubling in value is pretty healthy.

There is no point in destroying the progress that has been made under Benitez by making wholesale changes in the summer, Kuyt, Crouch and maybe Bellamy will all have a part to play in the future. It is wise to add a few quality players in required positions but not get rid of key players who have shown their ability.

There also seems to be a very one dimensional aspect in terms of transfers, a 'we should sign this player or that player'  attitude - how qualified are you compared to Benitez?.
There are many dimensions to signing a player - not just their on field ability - for example, Houllier passed up the opportunity to sign Lee Bowyer because of his attitude. Benitez will be much the same in his judgements.

I do go to matches at Anfield and I'm glad to say that the real fans of Liverpool know that the club lies in good hands and excellent management. Unlike some of the people on this forum.

Hi mate.

Excellent post and I agree with every sentiment in it.

Unfortunately on this forum not many go the games and we seem to be having a right old barny at the moment with people having different views.

Stay around though