Liverpool FC Forum

by **JBG** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:28 pm

I agree with BigMick saying that there is a valid argument that rotation should be dropped or at least toned down at the start of a season in order to get a good run going. There is a very valid argument that its easier to bring one or two players into a side and change things around a small bit when the team are on a fine run and confidence is running high across the entire squad. You can see Man UTD doing this, seamlessly introducing the likes of Darren Fletcher, John O' Shea and Wes Brown (who are surely no better than our squad players) into the side.

However, those in favour of rotation would attribute our strong showing in Europe to many players being fresh and being able to employ Rafa's high tempo pressing game in Europe against tiring opposition.

I think Benitez himself is aiming for a situation where he will have a squad of 25 players who he rotates at will, selecting horses for courses, always keeping guys on their toes and keeping the main players fit for the bigger matches. So far this system IS WORKING in Europe, but is not working in the Premiership. I do not think its a matter of prioritising one competition over the other: Benitez has always admitted that he won't consider himself an unqualified success at Liverpool without having won the Premiership yet the financial pressures (and indeed the football prestige) of the Champions League is so much that Liverpool cannot afford to neglect Europe and focus on the Premiership. I think rotation has worked for Europe - you cannot argue with results - but has failed in the Premiership. I think the reason it has failed in the Premiership is down to two or three reasons: 1. Benitez occasionally rotates the wrong players in Premiership matches. 2. the players are still not 100% adapted to the system (i.e. one or two of them who come in after being left out or "rotated" for a few matches look rusty and lethargic) and 3, (most importantly) we are still three or four players short - on the flanks and up front - of being proper contenders for both the Premiership and the Champions League.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:31 pm

4) Overly cautious managing -- As I said above, I don't think it has to do with the formations he picks or the personnel he starts the match with. To me, though, Rafa waits to long to change things when the plan isn't working. Take Saturday, where Man City were camped on the edge of their own area and Kuyt was getting no change whatsoever from them. That situation screams out for Crouch but Rafa left it very late to bring the big man on. Moreover, his substitutions seem to rob us of attacking flair rather than injecting us with it. How often has he taken a striker off for a midfielder when we are in search of a goal? How often is Pennant--say what you will, but he's one of the few players with pace who can dribble, therefore, he's one of the few players who can get in behind a defense on his own--taken off when the strikers need service? How many times does Kuyt get the full 90 minutes, despite being completely knackered by the end of the match and despite failing to carry a goal threat? Rafa seems unwilling to throw caution to the wind when we're controlling the game, and go hammer and tongs for a goal. We managed it against Reading but that was a rare instance where the subs came on and made the difference. I'd love to see him be much more positive in his substitutions away from home.

I find this odd about Rafa at times.

by **JBG** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:34 pm

Bad Bob wrote:Shoddy defending cost us the match at Everton, Bolton, Arsenal and Man U, at the very least.

Unfortunately there were more to those defeats than simply shoddy defending. In at least the Man UTD game Liverpool were, 1 to 11, on the day, significantly poorer than the opposition.

In the old days we might have dominated a game with Robbie Fowler clipping in one or two only for kamikazee defending from the likes of Phil Babb, Steve Harkness or laughable goalkeeping from David James to allow the opposition back into a match: now that was inept defending. There have been a couple of games this season where the entire side simply wasn't good enough.

by **66-1112520797** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:37 pm

JBG wrote:
Bad Bob wrote:Shoddy defending cost us the match at Everton, Bolton, Arsenal and Man U, at the very least.

Unfortunately there were more to those defeats than simply shoddy defending. In at least the Man UTD game Liverpool were, 1 to 11, on the day, significantly poorer than the opposition.

In the old days we might have dominated a game with Robbie Fowler clipping in one or two only for kamikazee defending from the likes of Phil Babb, Steve Harkness or laughable goalkeeping from David James to allow the opposition back into a match: now that was inept defending. There have been a couple of games this season where the entire side simply wasn't good enough.

Too true.

by **monkey 20** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:40 pm

eds wrote:Rafa has the money and the club to bring world class players to Liverpool next season and if we see the same of what we saw this season or worse (his first season), I'm sorry but even his Champions League Titles (hopefully 2!) wont be enough to save his job.

ok...now lets reflect on what you say; rafa will not or should not keep his job if we see the same as this season. even if he wins the european cup again! you have not taken into account that this is rafa's third season - what major titles has he brought us? 1 european cup (unimaginable before) and an FA cup. both major major trophies...he's won more major trophies than sir alex and wenger in their first five years in charge combined!!!! now he might have the money...but maybe a little perspective and a little time to build. we haven't won the EPL in such a long time, but impatience is not the way to go! i firmly believe rafa is the right man, and he'll get the chance to prove it!

by **grayghost** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:45 pm

Rafas job as Liverpool manager starts for real next season he has every thing in place the money the surport the fondations if there is no title challnge next season then that is when the pressure will build.

by **JBG** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:55 pm

monkey 20 wrote:
eds wrote:Rafa has the money and the club to bring world class players to Liverpool next season and if we see the same of what we saw this season or worse (his first season), I'm sorry but even his Champions League Titles (hopefully 2!) wont be enough to save his job.

ok...now lets reflect on what you say; rafa will not or should not keep his job if we see the same as this season. even if he wins the european cup again! you have not taken into account that this is rafa's third season - what major titles has he brought us? 1 european cup (unimaginable before) and an FA cup. both major major trophies...he's won more major trophies than sir alex and wenger in their first five years in charge combined!!!! now he might have the money...but maybe a little perspective and a little time to build. we haven't won the EPL in such a long time, but impatience is not the way to go! i firmly believe rafa is the right man, and he'll get the chance to prove it!

Two Champions League titles won't be enough to save his job? Are you a Real Madrid President in disguise?

Barcelona have only won two European Cups in their entire history, so Rafa's Liverpool matching one of the most glamorous club's in the world's entire achievement in the European cup would not be good enough in your eyes?

We all want the League, no questioning that, but Alex Ferguson would happily have swapped two or three of UTD's Premiership titles for another European crown. Its not for nothing that Liverpool fans (and Robbie Fowler

) give UTD fans the five fingered salute! :buttrock

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:56 pm

Ciggy wrote:Great post Rafa D,
Owzat Fowler was injured mate thats why he didnt travel with the squad.

Cheers. Didn't realise as the last squad news I saw beforehand had him in the squad

by **monkey 20** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:59 pm

yes, now his job starts and i agree pressure will mount if he doesn't do better, but to say outright he'll lose his job even if he wins the CL this year again is wrong, i mean dont get me wrong...i'd much prefer the EPL to the CL!

by **grayghost** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:03 pm

monkey 20 wrote:yes, now his job starts and i agree pressure will mount if he doesn't do better, but to say outright he'll lose his job even if he wins the CL this year again is wrong, i mean dont get me wrong...i'd much prefer the EPL to the CL!

I dont think i mentiond Rafa loseing his job if he wins the CL. you must be refering to some one else on that point.

by **Owzat** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:09 pm

If we can't go to grounds like COMS and pick up three points then we will struggle to challenge Chelski and the mancs. I believe Chelsea have still only lost three away games in the league and the mancs not many more altogether, and we're on eight if I recall correctly (without checking)

The underlying problem is goals, without scoring fairly freely you are too reliant on 1-0s and that is the difference between the mancs and Chelsea. The mancs score pretty freely, we managed one penalty in our first six away games

by **Igor Zidane** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:52 pm

On the question of rotation , i'm pretty much a firm believer in it, but having said that it only works when you have a smallish squad but quality throughout.

Rafa's big problem this season is thinking that the players he's bringing in are of sufficient quality as not to be detrimental to the whole team.

Our squad does simply not have the strength in depth as say Chelsea's.
Rafa did not buy players with enough or the same amount of quality as the players he wanted to rotate. Rotation can only work when the players your bringing in are as good as the ones you are replacing and that simply not the case with our squad.

That has been Rafa's biggest mistake this season imo, he's obviously thought that the players he's brought in were good enough to use the rotation policy ,when they are patently not.

Next season will be the key, with the transfer funds he has available.
Will he buy players that are of the same if not better than the quality players we have now ,or will he go for the quantity over quality way ,which imo opinion he has this season.

I fully expect Rafa to continue his rotation policy next season , the deciding factor will be the players he brings in.

by **puroresu** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:53 pm

I went to the St Mary's 2 seasons back and at the time thought I had watched a LFC performance which couldnt be beaten for mediocrity. However Villa and Man City away this season seem to rank on par.

by **neil** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:58 pm

puroresu wrote:I went to the St Mary's 2 seasons back and at the time thought I had watched a LFC performance which couldnt be beaten for mediocrity. However Villa and Man City away this season seem to rank on par.

No mate, we cant win the league so why go ding dong with a team that plays 1 at home up front then- get this- takes him off after an hour (you shouldv'e heard the groans) when we've got more important business in a couple of weeks, we would be seen to be a thick aas pigsh1t. Same could probably be said of the Villa match.

by **puroresu** » Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:19 pm

neil wrote:
puroresu wrote:I went to the St Mary's 2 seasons back and at the time thought I had watched a LFC performance which couldnt be beaten for mediocrity. However Villa and Man City away this season seem to rank on par.

No mate, we cant win the league so why go ding dong with a team that plays 1 at home up front then- get this- takes him off after an hour (you shouldv'e heard the groans) when we've got more important business in a couple of weeks, we would be seen to be a thick aas pigsh1t. Same could probably be said of the Villa match.

ding-dong? Man City are useless and shouldnt be a difficult game to win. Get in front and then its comfortable.

Liverpool FC Forum

What is the matter with us away from home?

Who is online