Liverpool FC Forum

[Lando_Griffin]

Once again, though, it's our lack of top-drawer creativity in the final 3rd.

These kind of games are made for Pablo Aimar.

Get him, a couple of strikers, and a top left winger, and the title is ours to lose my friends.

[puroresu]

Once again, though, it's our lack of top-drawer creativity in the final 3rd.

These kind of games are made for Pablo Aimar.

Get him, a couple of strikers, and a top left winger, and the title is ours to lose my friends.

Aimar is past now aint he?

[Ace Ventura]

Rafa-Dodd hit the nail on the head when he said if we were still going for the league we would of seen a total different performance.
Like it or not with the league now all there is to play for is consolidating our position in third, we have two relatively easy home games now where the players know if we win them nect seasons champions league position is virtually guaranteed.
We will see a total different performance from the players against Chelsea i am certain of that.
peewee i agree with what you have been stating about the manager, he badly over rotated at the start of the season meaning we were out of the race for the title before it had begun, thats not acceptable for Liverpool and he better not make the same mistake again.
I agree with whoever mentioned his substitutions and tactical changes in a match as well.
I am constantly baffled with them, infact trying to guess his substitutions is harder than guessing his original starting line up !
Typing that and reading it back it makes it look like i am not behind the manager, which couldnt be further from the truth.
He just amazes me how we can be so good at times and then so ordinary at others.

[Bad Bob]

I agree with BigMick saying that there is a valid argument that rotation should be dropped or at least toned down at the start of a season in order to get a good run going. There is a very valid argument that its easier to bring one or two players into a side and change things around a small bit when the team are on a fine run and confidence is running high across the entire squad. You can see Man UTD doing this, seamlessly introducing the likes of Darren Fletcher, John O' Shea and Wes Brown (who are surely no better than our squad players) into the side.

However, those in favour of rotation would attribute our strong showing in Europe to many players being fresh and being able to employ Rafa's high tempo pressing game in Europe against tiring opposition.

I think Benitez himself is aiming for a situation where he will have a squad of 25 players who he rotates at will, selecting horses for courses, always keeping guys on their toes and keeping the main players fit for the bigger matches. So far this system IS WORKING in Europe, but is not working in the Premiership. I do not think its a matter of prioritising one competition over the other: Benitez has always admitted that he won't consider himself an unqualified success at Liverpool without having won the Premiership yet the financial pressures (and indeed the football prestige) of the Champions League is so much that Liverpool cannot afford to neglect Europe and focus on the Premiership. I think rotation has worked for Europe - you cannot argue with results - but has failed in the Premiership. I think the reason it has failed in the Premiership is down to two or three reasons: 1. Benitez occasionally rotates the wrong players in Premiership matches. 2. the players are still not 100% adapted to the system (i.e. one or two of them who come in after being left out or "rotated" for a few matches look rusty and lethargic) and 3, (most importantly) we are still three or four players short - on the flanks and up front - of being proper contenders for both the Premiership and the Champions League.

Good post.  As we've all discussed earlier in the season, it's not the fact of rotation that causes problems because all teams rotate--and, yes, that includes the Mancs and Chelsea (check the line-ups for their opening fixtures if you don't believe me).  Rather, it's the degree to which Rafa rotates.  The wholesale changes that were being made earlier in the season did us no favours.  Rafa really needs to recognize this for next season--the team has to settle into a winning rhythm straight away and that's harder to do if there are 3-4 guys swapped in/out every week.

But, I think the rotation issue is a red herring when it comes to explaining some of our listless results in recent weeks.  The line-up has been reasonably consistent of late so it's not about rotation for me.  Rather, as you've suggested at the end of your post, I think we lack a few key players with that extra bit of quality to break teams down.

[stmichael]

We have completely the wrong attitude and mental application away from home under Rafa. To be brutally bleak and honest too many games the players have looked/given the impression they don't give a sh#t. Even united away this season was a f#cking joke. No pride, no passion, no nothing.

Saturday, like Villa was a pretty meaningless game. But to come out with those two performances IMO is a disgrace and a lack of appreciation for those who travelled to support the lads.

So our season is all about the CL. What about gaining and maintaining some momentum? Does Rafa and the players think they can turn it on and off like a tap? It's an incredibly dangerous game to play if you ask me.

What gets my goat even more is this is the worst United team to be challenging for the top trophies in living memory, but they are on a roll, and hammering teams even when they play poorly like they did against Watford. It's call momentum, something they have had because they treated the first 10 games this season like cup finals.

They attack teams. 75% of the premiership are average. Fergie knows this and knows that as long as they keep attacking they will score more than the opponents.

[JBG]

They attack teams. 75% of the premiership are average. Fergie knows this and knows that as long as they keep attacking they will score more than the opponents.

Yes.

The present and last Liverpool managers have been guilty of paying too much respect to mid table and lesser Premier league sides. Roy Evans had his Liverpool side attack into the opposition and hence we had the likes of Robbie Fowler and Michael Owen scoring for fun, the problem was with Evans is that his Liverpool side were brittle and didn't like it when the opposition attacked back. 

The current side is not brittle, indeed there is a toughness to it that other sides find hard to break down. We need to go out and attack weaker Premiership sides. That said, we also need more quality than the wings and a goalscoring striker (remember those  ).

[stmichael]

On Saturday we played a team who have the 2nd worst attack in the Premier League yet still played with at least 7 defensively minded outfield players. Im sorry but none of the other top 4 would have gone there and been so defensive. We have to unleash the shackles every now and again if we want to progress.

[zarababe]

The league is our bread and butter - but we haven't won it for 20 odd years - it took Fergie 7 years to find the formula the boss will do it, next year will be big for us

[red37]

but we haven't won it for 20 odd years

18 years next term. (and at the current rate of progression, you may end up being right).

[Stu.Murph]

A brutally honest assessment of how our season has gone there. The away performances is what has really let us down this year. Anfield is once again "Fortress Anfield" and its very rare for us to drop a point there. Thats the way is should be with Liverpool. Anfield should be a nightmare for the opposition to come and play, however we went through a patch that lasted around 10 years where teams like Ispwich, Barnsley, Sheff Utd and Coventry could all come and steal the points.

  Fair play to Rafa, he made this a priority when he first came here and our home form is up there with the best in the world. Until United recently beat us we were unbeaten there for practically over a year. Winning at home is vital, however winnning away is what makes you Champions. Just look at the table this weekend. We have lost 7 games away from home - you cant afford to lose that many if you want any chance of even challenging for the league. Coupled with the  4 draws away from home and thats a lot of missed points. We actually have only won 6 away so we've lost more than we have won on the road, thats not title winning form.

Now how do we explain it? The tactics, the formations, the personall employed, the managers reservations? You can point to a number of things and have a valid point and thats what I think it is, we've failed in games because of a mixture of a lot of things. The rotation at the start of the season was sometimes baffling for me, Gerrard left out of PSV away in the CL? Crouch dropped after scoring 2 goals the weekend before? The backline being changed on a weekly basis? Sometimes even I, the great defender of Rafa was left shaking my head in disbelief, our title challenged slipped away within 1 and 1/2 months of the new season and Rafa has to shoulder some of the blame for that. You also have to take into account a lot of our losses in the league away from home came within the first 2 months of the season. The fixture list wasn't kind to us, but when going to Goodison, the Reebok, Emirates, Old Trafford and Stamford Brigde - 0 points return is not good enough. I know there were probably the 5 hardest away days of the season and we were terribly unlucky to have them all bundled together like that but champions would work through it. To not even pick up a win and a couple of draws was pathetic, even the law of averages would assume us picking up something from the games. The dodgy decisions at the Reebok, the Drogba wonder goal, they did hurt us but we should have more about us then to lie down and take it like we did. The most disapointing match of the season for me was the United game at Old Trafford. The lads who has served us so well in the 2 previous finals, where they had played like wounded lions, let me miserably - Gerrard - no heart, Carra looked lost. I was really upset after that game.

Another possible reason for this poor showing at the start of the season is down to the players we had brought in. The revolving door was in full swing last summer with lots of new arrivals. Pennant, Gonzo, Aurelio, Bellamy and Kuyt were all brought into the squad to be first team players, bedding this many players all in at once was always going to be difficult even more so coupled with Rafa's rotation. Kuyt and Bellamy took a while to get used to our systems and the rotation, Pennant looked scared in his first game for us and Gonzo was never going to live up to the hype. Aurelio struggled as well and the decision to play him in a Merseyside derby when he was new to the Premiership and the country will go down as one of Rafa's weirdest decisions in his tenure as the boss of Liverpool. Considering the fact we probably have a core squad of first teamers of around 20 players, 5 of these were brand new to the club, thats around 25% of the squad was suddenly working under a different manager, different systems, different expectations, different fans etc. Bedding in of players is notoriously hard work and I think Rafa made a big boob in trying to intergrate them as early as he did. With hindsight, he should of kept Didi and gone with the tactics and players that finished the previous season so strongly. Fowler up front with Crouch, Gerrard on the right, Riise on the left and poss Warnock at Left back. They knew the roles and the systems and would of fared a lot better at the start of the season - but thats hindsight. What does stand us in good stead next year is hopefully there will not be the whole sale changes we seen last year, possibly 2 or 3 transfers so the core base of the squad will be confident and happy with the roles they have to perform in the team.

The formation I am not too concerned with. I am a big believer in the benefits that the 4 - 5 - 1 brings to the team.  It allows us to pack the midfield and gives the wingers license to roam down the wings - if done correctly. I don't feel its too negative - as Rafa has stated it can be seen as 4 - 3 - 3 and can easliy be changed to this if need be. The recent draws against Villa and yesterday against Man City would not be ideal results but I feel the players and Rafa to a certain extent are quite content in the 3rd spot and I would not expect to see them busting a gut or going that extra mile when the "big one" is right around the corner. It shouldn't be like this, I agree but with Chelsea in the semi's and a possible final appearance in Athens for our 6th European Cup why would they. Players dream of playing on the big stage and winnning things and the European Cup is the biggest of them all. How many players can look back at their career and say they played in a European Cup Final? not many. With a CL spot practically sewn up, players do not want to get injured or push themselves when the biggest game of their lives is round the corner. It shouldn'e be like this, and the players will deny it, but its certainly a major factor for me. I'd guarantee you now, if we were in Chelsea's position, 3 points behind the Mancs, then a very different Liverpool would of showed up yesterday.

All in all our away performances at the start of the season is the single major factor. Out of the 11 games we have dropped points in away from home ( 7 losses and 4 draws) 7 of these games were in a row at the start of the season. Out of our first 7 away games in the league - we won 0, drew 2 and lost 5 games. Thats were our title challenge was lost. We just have to make sure it doesn't happen again. And hopefully we won't.

To put it simply and hopefully an end to the stupid questions. We aren't good enough and don't have enough quality. Simple as that. Next...

[JBG]

Harsh as it sounds, Stu is right. We aren't a million miles away and with the correct signings in the summer we could even make the step up in the space of one season, but the current squad simply isn't good enough.

Much of what the side does is very good and it is more than formidable in Europe (due mainly to Benitez' canniness in getting good results away from home) but to go up to the highest level we are, at the very least, three players short. There is plainly and bluntly simply not enough quality going forward.

[hishhish]

I think people forget we faced very tough opposition in the begining of the season, which pretty much knocked the "train off the track" since then  we have been trying to play catch up. That has been hard with very tough to break mid table teams eg, Bolton, Villa, Pompey.
In CL where we have been comfortable, we have been able to perform outstanding performances against Barca (x2) and against PSV when needed.
In fact I think that is why Rafa didn't mind too much being out of the FA and Carling. Just not worth the effort, as Jose is finding out!

[Stu.Murph]

I think people forget we faced very tough opposition in the begining of the season, which pretty much knocked the "train off the track" since then  we have been trying to play catch up. That has been hard with very tough to break mid table teams eg, Bolton, Villa, Pompey.
In CL where we have been comfortable, we have been able to perform outstanding performances against Barca (x2) and against PSV when needed.
In fact I think that is why Rafa didn't mind too much being out of the FA and Carling. Just not worth the effort, as Jose is finding out!

So what you're saying is we played United, Chelsea, Arsenal, Bolton, Everton in a row away so that means we should lose in all of them?

MAYBE we might have accepted it had we been "unlucky" like against Chelsea when we done enough I felt to get a point but in the other games we got trounced. Absoloutely mauled by teams. We didn't even look average in most of those games. Infact all but one we were a disgrace, and we've been a disgrace to many times this season.

[monkey 20]

They attack teams. 75% of the premiership are average. Fergie knows this and knows that as long as they keep attacking they will score more than the opponents.

Yes.

The present and last Liverpool managers have been guilty of paying too much respect to mid table and lesser Premier league sides. Roy Evans had his Liverpool side attack into the opposition and hence we had the likes of Robbie Fowler and Michael Owen scoring for fun, the problem was with Evans is that his Liverpool side were brittle and didn't like it when the opposition attacked back. 

The current side is not brittle, indeed there is a toughness to it that other sides find hard to break down. We need to go out and attack weaker Premiership sides. That said, we also need more quality than the wings and a goalscoring striker (remember those  ).

perfect...great post

[Kharhaz]

Would it be fair to say weve already qualified for the Champs League? 3rd or 4th weve still qualified. If we have to go through the qualifiers, so be it, at least the teams are usually cack and can be treated as a friendly. Would this be Rafa and the players thinking in terms of attitude of the remaining premiership matches??