Am i being a little over dramatic... - Or has something got to give?

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Postby Redman in wales » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:08 pm

Thehobo wrote:o dear

OPTA stats are silly

on that basis the best passers in the league are

darren fletcher
scott parker
frank lampard

er no.... the top 4 are:
     
               
Passers      Team     Passes Accuracy         
Fabregas   Arsenal     587       85%         
Essien       Chelsea    454       83%         
Alonso      Liverpool   452        82%         
Lampard   Chelsea     449        80%         


no fletcher or parker there... just 4 of the leagues best midfielders (though i do use that term lightly for fat frank)
------

and yes opta stats may not be the best way to rate or judge players, and they may not be 100% accurate or full proof, they do give you some idea... and more often or not they're in the right area
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Postby tubby » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:44 pm

We have to look at when Rafa first came and how long it took for the Spaniards to accimatise to the Premiership.

Again we have to remember that we have a lot of new players coming into the fold that have not yet adjusted to the pace of the Premiership on a consistent basis.

I have no doubt that players like Gonzalez will be a hit here but the fact is that I think this season is yet another of re adjustment for us as we once again in the Summer shopped abroad.

I just hope we can manage to have more to show at the end of the season apart from the Charity shield.
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Postby 7_Kewell » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:45 pm

Sell Alonso?  Sack Rafa?  :censored: hell people, get a grip.


Ok, things have started off badly and moral is low at the club.  But come on, lets at least wait until Christmas before we start to even look at the panic button.
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Postby Thehobo » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:48 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
Thehobo wrote:o dear

OPTA stats are silly

on that basis the best passers in the league are

darren fletcher
scott parker
frank lampard

er no.... the top 4 are:
     
               
Passers      Team     Passes Accuracy         
Fabregas   Arsenal     587       85%         
Essien       Chelsea    454       83%         
Alonso      Liverpool   452        82%         
Lampard   Chelsea     449        80%         


no fletcher or parker there... just 4 of the leagues best midfielders (though i do use that term lightly for fat frank)
------

and yes opta stats may not be the best way to rate or judge players, and they may not be 100% accurate or full proof, they do give you some idea... and more often or not they're in the right area

this proves my point

lampard and essien are amoung the best passers in the league

haha

alonso fair enough, brilliant passer (sadly these days he hasnt got much more to his game) he hasnt improved since when he joined
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Postby 7_Kewell » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:50 pm

Thehobo wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
Thehobo wrote:o dear

OPTA stats are silly

on that basis the best passers in the league are

darren fletcher
scott parker
frank lampard

er no.... the top 4 are:
     
               
Passers      Team     Passes Accuracy         
Fabregas   Arsenal     587       85%         
Essien       Chelsea    454       83%         
Alonso      Liverpool   452        82%         
Lampard   Chelsea     449        80%         


no fletcher or parker there... just 4 of the leagues best midfielders (though i do use that term lightly for fat frank)
------

and yes opta stats may not be the best way to rate or judge players, and they may not be 100% accurate or full proof, they do give you some idea... and more often or not they're in the right area

this proves my point

lampard and essien are amoung the best passers in the league

haha

alonso fair enough, brilliant passer (sadly these days he hasnt got much more to his game) he hasnt improved since when he joined

he hasn't improved?  He was class when he arrived and he's still class now.  Rooney is having an off form period at manure...you think he should be sold too?


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Postby dawson99 » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:51 pm

not an alonso fan we can tell

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maybe you should stick to helping others when on the road, as you clearly havent got a clue about how good Alsono is!

and, ur a cheatski fan obviosuly
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Postby neil » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:52 pm

7_Kewell wrote:Sell Alonso?  Sack Rafa?  :censored: hell people, get a grip.

sack 7_kewell
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Postby Redman in wales » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:53 pm

Thehobo wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
Thehobo wrote:o dear

OPTA stats are silly

on that basis the best passers in the league are

darren fletcher
scott parker
frank lampard

er no.... the top 4 are:
     
               
Passers      Team     Passes Accuracy         
Fabregas   Arsenal     587       85%         
Essien       Chelsea    454       83%         
Alonso      Liverpool   452        82%         
Lampard   Chelsea     449        80%         


no fletcher or parker there... just 4 of the leagues best midfielders (though i do use that term lightly for fat frank)
------

and yes opta stats may not be the best way to rate or judge players, and they may not be 100% accurate or full proof, they do give you some idea... and more often or not they're in the right area

this proves my point

lampard and essien are amoung the best passers in the league

haha

alonso fair enough, brilliant passer (sadly these days he hasnt got much more to his game) he hasnt improved since when he joined

put bias behind you for one minute and watch chelsea next time they play. count their passes. see how many of essiens passes go astray.

i hate the dirty :censored: with a passion, but he is a good midfielder.
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Postby puroresu » Mon Oct 23, 2006 1:59 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
Thehobo wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
Thehobo wrote:o dear

OPTA stats are silly

on that basis the best passers in the league are

darren fletcher
scott parker
frank lampard

er no.... the top 4 are:
     
               
Passers      Team     Passes Accuracy         
Fabregas   Arsenal     587       85%         
Essien       Chelsea    454       83%         
Alonso      Liverpool   452        82%         
Lampard   Chelsea     449        80%         


no fletcher or parker there... just 4 of the leagues best midfielders (though i do use that term lightly for fat frank)
------

and yes opta stats may not be the best way to rate or judge players, and they may not be 100% accurate or full proof, they do give you some idea... and more often or not they're in the right area

this proves my point

lampard and essien are amoung the best passers in the league

haha

alonso fair enough, brilliant passer (sadly these days he hasnt got much more to his game) he hasnt improved since when he joined

put bias behind you for one minute and watch chelsea next time they play. count their passes. see how many of essiens passes go astray.

i hate the dirty :censored: with a passion, but he is a good midfielder.

his a v good player.  agreed.
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Postby Espionage » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:15 pm

IMO Alonso is the last player (apart from Carragher) that Rafa would sell.
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:53 pm

Thehobo wrote:alonso fair enough, brilliant passer (sadly these days he hasnt got much more to his game) he hasnt improved since when he joined

You are a clueless tool who clearly knows :censored:-all about football. You're obviously on a wind-up so why don't you pis.s off back to red cafe or whatever stone you crawled from under.
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Postby Scottbot » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:56 pm

Rafa-Dodd wrote:I resisted so far as to post in this thread, as it may lose me some friends - but we have got to stop this Rafa bashing right now.

  Yes we have not performed at all this season, we have not had that stand out performance and our lack of goals is worrying. Gerrard doesn't look right, same with Carra for me as well. He is half the player he was last year and he needs to start reading the game better. Gonzo been average along with Pennant and Alonso has been shocking in some games. Even Pepe has been a shadow of himself from last year. But don't you think Rafa knows this?

   I am absolutely gutted at how are season is going, I had high hopes after the last two years but it seems we are fighting a losing battle this year for the league and in all honesty I would take 4th now. However for people to criticise Rafa and suggest he should go is bordering on insanity. I have seen people, suggest he is "tactically inept", "losing the plot" and "turning into Houllier". These are typical knee jerk reactions of a modern day fan. They expect results straight away and if they dont get them, they turn against the team and the manager.

Some of you are sounding ridiculous:

1) To suggest we sell Alonso is absurd. He is quality, he is in very poor form but to sell one of our best players and passers of the ball is downright stupid.

2) Gerrard is not bigger than the club. Someone actually commented that Rafa should go because he is playing Gerrard out of position. However good Stevie G is, he plays where the manager sees fit. If I was Rafa I would play him in the middle with Momo, but as I dont have a european cup and f.a cup winners medal - I will leave that decision to the manager.


  We have been poor, I admit it but the suggestions that Rafa should go are absurd and I am ashamed they are coming from a fellow red. Liverpools motto is "You'll Never Walk Alone" and we should stick by the team through thick and thin.

We never publically criticise our own, Shanks instilled that and Rafa is following the script. He knows whats wrong and he is trying to fix it. Rafa brought us our 5th European Cup and our best ever Premiership performance last year. We were so consistent last year and we were confident going into every game. I know people in todays game cannot live on past glories but this fella saved a sinking ship and the lack of respect for him in this thread is shocking.

  We're Liverpool Football Club, yes, we struggling but it should be all hands on deck trying to get the team out of this mess, not condemning the man and players as failures because they stuggling to get their groove back.

Doddy, best post in this thread by a country mile. We had to listen to all this 'has Rafa lost the dressing room' and the 'body language looks all wrong' this time last season. The team needs to win a game or two. See what that does to the body language.
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Postby bigmick » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:02 pm

Definately a chinese whispers thread this. I think the original topic starter was relatively sensible, I didn't advocate selling Gerrard or sacking Rafa I merely posed the question as to where we currently are. Since then of course the thread has been taken over by some obvious wind-up merchants, but fair play to Bad Bob, Rafa Dodd and the Saint for some good posts. Good spot also by the Scotbott who harked back to a very similar thread after the Crystal Palace game last season.

The question remains though, where are we? I definately don't go along with the one or two who have claimed that we weren't that bad yesterday, we were and it's been a performance which has been threatening for a while. Though I wouldn't be in favour of any moves to sell Alonso who is one of our best players, on the evidence of this season so far Luis Garcia (who is one of my favourite players TBH) has to be treading on thin ice surely. I thought he was an absolute passenger against Man U and while he persists with his tricky-dicky approach and continues to pay no attention whatsoever to the necessities of ball-retention, it is hard to imagine him having a positive influence on many Away games in the league. Gerrard too was desperately poor by his own imperious standards and it doesn't take a genius to work out that he is clearly unhappy with his life at the moment. I merely asked the question as to what we propose to do about it? Do we take the "ah well he'll snap out of it approach" or do we address the problem, if indeed it's addressable?

The whole point of the post really was a snapshot look at where we stand. While it would be unfair to place the blame for our dreadful form squarely at the door of the rotations both in personel and formations, clearly it's fair to say the whole philosophy isn't making us play better at the moment, (I say clearly but I am aware that there are still advocates who may dispute this). Similarly, it is hard to argue anything other than the fact that unless we improve dramatically, we won't even finish in the top four never mind win the Premiership (once again I'll probably get shouted down here. I'm not saying we won't finish fourth, merely that if we do you can be sure it will be as a result of a drastic improvement in form).

And that's it really. It was a question. If we accept that Gerrard is p!ssed off with his football at the moment (which he is) and that we are p!ss poor based on the obvious potential within our squad (which we are) what do we do about it? Do we as some have suggested tell Gerrard, "Nobody's bigger than the club. Lump it or feck off", do we tell Rafa "either sort out Gerrard and therefore the teams situation or feck off" or do we calmly look at the situation and try and resolve it? There is an option four I guess which is to bury our heads in the sand, claim we are actually playing quite well/have just been unlucky/have had some hard games/we will be thanking our lucky stars for rotation at the end of the season etc etc etc.

I really think for reasons I have written on here a million times, the fourth option is a non-starter. The answer lies in the third option. We need to explain to Gerrard that playing him on the left was a mistake which we now realise and accept. We also need to tell him that we accept it is a mistake to not play him through the centre in the unlikely event of us playing five in midfield ever again. No, we need to tell him that we think if he starts on the right, that is the best way of getting him on the ball in areas where he can most hurt the opposition. This is the area right or central where he recieve the ball in the final third. Get him on the ball there, and he is the most destructive footballer in the Premiership today.

We need to tell Sissoko to go back to hunting the ball much higher up the pitch. FWIW I actually think this is THE most significant factor in our demise this season. Momo, hunt the ball in the final third, you are not a holding midfielder.

Guess what the last one is? Yeah you got it, pick a team and stick largely to it. If we continue as we are we could be the first team in the history of the Premiership to have rotated and tinkered our way into barely the top half of the table.
Last edited by bigmick on Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rimetto_ » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:03 pm

ok maybe i was still a bit :censored: off this morning with the result and was a bit clouded in my judgement when i said sell alonso. But i can't see how on his current form he's keeping stevie out of the middle.

As i've said a couple of times now i'd like to see stevie and momo start in the central positions.

At the moment i think the midfield should be

Pennant
Gerrard
Sissoko
risse

what midfield does everyone else think would be the best?
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Postby matrix » Mon Oct 23, 2006 3:07 pm

bigmick wrote:Definately a chinese whispers thread this. I think the original topic starter was relatively sensible, I didn't advocate selling Gerrard or sacking Rafa I merely posed the question as to where we currently are. Since then of course the thread has been taken over by some obvious wind-up merchants, but fair play to Bad Bob, Rafa Dodd and the Saint for some good posts. Good spot also by the Scotbott who harked back to a very similar thread after the Crystal Palace game last season.

The question remains though, where are we? I definately don't go along with the one or two who have claimed that we weren't that bad yesterday, we were and it's been a performance which has been threatening for a while. Though I wouldn't be in favour of any moves to sell Alonso who is one of our best players, on the evidence of this season so far Luis Garcia (who is one of my favourite players TBH) has to be treading on thin ice surely. I thought he was an absolute passenger against Man U and while he persists with his tricky-dicky approach and continues to pay no attention whatsoever to the necessities of ball-retention, it is hard to imagine him having a positive influence on many Away games in the league. Gerrard too was desperately poor by his own imperious standards and it doesn't take a genius to work out that he is clearly unhappy with his life at the moment. I merely asked the question as to what we propose to do about it? Do we take the "ah well he'll snap out of it approach" or do we address the problem, if indeed it's addressable?

The whole point of the post really was a snapshot look at where we stand. While it would be unfair to place the blame for our dreadful form squarely at the door of the rotations both in personel and formations, clearly it's fair to say the whole philosophy isn't making us play better at the moment, (I say clearly but I am aware that there are still advocates who may dispute this). Similarly, it is hard to argue anything other than the fact that unless we improve dramatically, we won't even finish in the top four never mind win the Premiership (once again I'll probably get shouted down here. I'm not saying we won't finish fourth, merely that if we do you can be sure it will be as a result of a drastic improvement in form).

And that's it really. It was a question. If we accept that Gerrard is p!ssed off with his football at the moment (which he is) and that we are p!ss poor based on the obvious potential within our squad (which we are) what do we do about it? Do we as some have suggested tell Gerrard, "Nobody's bigger than the club. Lump it or feck off", do we tell Rafa "either sort out Gerrard and therefore the teams situation or feck off" or do we calmly look at the situation and try and resolve it? There is an option four I guess which is to bury our heads in the sand, claim we are actually playing quite well/have just been unlucky/have had some hard games/we will be thanking our lucky stars for rotation at the end of the season etc etc etc.

I really think for reasons I have written on here a million times, the fourth option is a non-starter. The answer lies in the third option. We need to explain to Gerrard that playing him on the left was a mistake which we now realise and accept. We also need to tell him that we accept it is a mistake to not play him through the centre in the unlikely event of us playing five in midfield ever again. No, we need to tell him that we think if he starts on the right, that is the best way of getting him on the ball in areas where he can most hurt the opposition. This is the area right or central where he recieve the ball in the final third. Get him on the ball there, and he is the most destructive footballer in the Premiership today.

We need to tell Sissoko to go back to hunting the ball much higher up the pitch. FWIW I actually think this is THE most significant factor in our demise this season. Momo, hunt the ball in the final third, you are not a holding midfielder.

Guess what the last one is? Yeah you got it, pick a team and stick largely to it. If we continue as we are we could be the first team in the history of the Premiership to have rotated and tinkered our way into barely the top half of the table.

good post bigmick...   :;):
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