Liverpool FC Forum

by **Judge** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 12:42 pm

The Red Baron wrote:Respect the man,not his paymasters.What ever the rights and wrongs of a conflict,a soldier has no say.If he is sent to war,off he goes.Personally if my country is involved in military action of any sort,regardless of my thoughts,those in the field have my complete backing.
Your friend chooses not to buy a poppy,that is his perogative.I find his argument a bit shallow.The fallen of any war should be honoured,they have made the ultimate sacrifice.Iwear my poppy to remember those killed serving there country whatever the circumstances

well said.

i had no choice in 1990/1.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:46 pm

surely the cause matters though.

I mean if a soldier dies fighting for nazism, should he be honoured by his countryfolk as he was equally as brave as any other soldier?

by **Judge** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:47 pm

Big Niall wrote:surely the cause matters though.

I mean if a soldier dies fighting for nazism, should he be honoured by his countryfolk as he was equally as brave as any other soldier?

a soldier always fights for his country first, regardless of why.

if you'd ever been one, you'd know

if you were a soldier however, then why say what you said??

by **84-1106852058** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 1:57 pm

Big Niall wrote:surely the cause matters though.

I mean if a soldier dies fighting for nazism, should he be honoured by his countryfolk as he was equally as brave as any other soldier?

Not all germans who fought in the war were Nazis.Many brave men on both sides gave their lives.

by **andy_g** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:04 pm

Big Niall wrote:I mentioned this thread to an english friend of mine and he said he wouldn't wear the poppy as it commemerates the dead in a lot of wars he thinks are wrong and singled out the falklands war, Iraq, and the old colonial wars ( I got the impression all wars bar WW2 really)

INteresting perspective, if somebody dies in a war for a cause you find to be morally wrong, how should you act?

for me it depends on the nature of the conflict. in the two world wars many brave men and women volunteered, or were conscripted, to defend their country and beliefs and died in the effort. i have enormous respect for these people who act in a time of war, when there is a definite and dangerous threat to their country.

on the other hand i don't cry for the career soldier. if you join the army as a career option you have to open your eyes and realise that your goverment is going to use you to fight battles that you, or the majority of your countrymen, may not believe in. if you still go away to war willingly don't expect me to mourn you.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 3:04 pm

andy_g wrote:
Big Niall wrote:I mentioned this thread to an english friend of mine and he said he wouldn't wear the poppy as it commemerates the dead in a lot of wars he thinks are wrong and singled out the falklands war, Iraq, and the old colonial wars ( I got the impression all wars bar WW2 really)

INteresting perspective, if somebody dies in a war for a cause you find to be morally wrong, how should you act?

for me it depends on the nature of the conflict. in the two world wars many brave men and women volunteered, or were conscripted, to defend their country and beliefs and died in the effort. i have enormous respect for these people who act in a time of war, when there is a definite and dangerous threat to their country.

on the other hand i don't cry for the career soldier. if you join the army as a career option you have to open your eyes and realise that your goverment is going to use you to fight battles that you, or the majority of your countrymen, may not believe in. if you still go away to war willingly don't expect me to mourn you.

Well said. I agree.

by **Judge** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 5:03 pm

andy_g wrote:
Big Niall wrote:I mentioned this thread to an english friend of mine and he said he wouldn't wear the poppy as it commemerates the dead in a lot of wars he thinks are wrong and singled out the falklands war, Iraq, and the old colonial wars ( I got the impression all wars bar WW2 really)

INteresting perspective, if somebody dies in a war for a cause you find to be morally wrong, how should you act?

for me it depends on the nature of the conflict. in the two world wars many brave men and women volunteered, or were conscripted, to defend their country and beliefs and died in the effort. i have enormous respect for these people who act in a time of war, when there is a definite and dangerous threat to their country.

on the other hand i don't cry for the career soldier. if you join the army as a career option you have to open your eyes and realise that your goverment is going to use you to fight battles that you, or the majority of your countrymen, may not believe in. if you still go away to war willingly don't expect me to mourn you.

there were still pacifists during ww1 & ww2 andy!!

i understand the point your making though

by **84-1106852058** » Fri Nov 18, 2005 9:19 pm

Judge wrote:i understand the point your making though

Sorry Andy I dont,I have a 21 year old nephew who is currently
serving in the British army.A career he chose.He left school with no prospects and no ambition.He lived in area plagued with social problems.Since joining the Army he has done two tours of Iraq and is waiting to go to Bosnia.
He joined the Army by choice,his decision,a decision I believe taken by many young men to escape the stigma of unemployment,and the tedium of hanging around on street corners.He joined the Army as a young boy a typical teenager complete with chip on his shoulder.He returned home as a young man.If he was ever ordered into action,Ihave no doubts he would follow his orders and do his duty[What he is payed to do]

As we havent had conscription in this country since the fifties,
every member of our armed forces is a career soldier/sailor or airman.If these young men and women should fall in battle they should be remembered by everyone,not just their grieving families.Two minutes silence and a pound in a collecting tin once a year,doesnt seem a lot to ask.

by **andy_g** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:15 am

RB, i really don't want to disrespect your nephew or yourself, but a career soldier is a career soldier, regardless of background. they do their job with their eyes open, knowing that they will have to follow orders and that those orders will at some time be to go and kill or be killed. anyone who joins the army thinking otherwise, that it is just a decent everyday job like any other is badly mistaken.

i spent a long long time unemployed myself, and know people who joined the army as a way out of that. give me the street corner any time. i have a lot more respect for someone who finds their own way out of that, their own way to make a living than someone who just goes and feeds the governments need for grunts to do its dirty work.

by **66-1120597113** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 2:49 am

andy_g wrote:RB, i really don't want to disrespect your nephew or yourself, but a career soldier is a career soldier, regardless of background. they do their job with their eyes open, knowing that they will have to follow orders and that those orders will at some time be to go and kill or be killed. anyone who joins the army thinking otherwise, that it is just a decent everyday job like any other is badly mistaken.

i spent a long long time unemployed myself, and know people who joined the army as a way out of that. give me the street corner any time. i have a lot more respect for someone who finds their own way out of that, their own way to make a living than someone who just goes and feeds the governments need for grunts to do its dirty work.

Obviously Andy G you have not seen a person pushed into a corner and questioning their own worth!
Its easy for all to say that as a career the army is wrong and a persons own choice!
That my friend is utter bullsh.it!
Some young men/women grow up in deprivation that most are unlikely to understand and experience!
Middle class can frown upon the stigma of having nothing and making decisions that one would not care to experience,but sometimes forced circumstance can deal an individual a bad hand!
Should a teenager be punished for being immature at school??
Not having the sense that us adults have?
Not knowing at the the time or taking seriously that GCSE's are the Key to a successful future!
I never cared as my parents never had an O level between them! I thought feck it my ma n da done well without them,why do i need them!!
I've been lucky! I got an apprenticeship when i was 16 when i dropped out that i shouldnt have as i never had the exams!! Now i have a good job that i am greatful for and lucky !
What im tryin to say is that kids(usually the lower class kids) leave school with nothing through either their own immaturity or failure from other parties with nothing!! Its easy to go on the dole and take a meagre life or existance and sit on the rear and sponge off the tax payer!! Maybe pull the odd wee move here n there and make a few quid!!

So how the fu.ck is joining the army wrong??
A 17 yr old can join the army,get a decent wage,get taught basic life skills,do courses,exams,get taught respect,feel self worth in serving their country and come out a better person! Wtf is wrong with that!
Without looking at the politics and reasons for individual wars its a damn good way out rather than rotting on the dole!!

by **84-1106852058** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 6:21 am

andy_g wrote:RB, i really don't want to disrespect your nephew or yourself, but a career soldier is a career soldier, regardless of background. they do their job with their eyes open, knowing that they will have to follow orders and that those orders will at some time be to go and kill or be killed. anyone who joins the army thinking otherwise, that it is just a decent everyday job like any other is badly mistaken.

i spent a long long time unemployed myself, and know people who joined the army as a way out of that. give me the street corner any time. i have a lot more respect for someone who finds their own way out of that, their own way to make a living than someone who just goes and feeds the governments need for grunts to do its dirty work.

Andy I understand your point now.All armies do the dirty work of governments.It is true anybody entering a recruiting office and enlisting does so with their eyes open.Should they be called upon to go to war they cant complain.They might hold political views,about the legitimacy of the war but as a member of the armed forces they have no choice,they made that choice when they enlisted.

We have all seen families of soldiers killed in Iraq on the television,while this is very sad[some might say they shouldnt have been there,for me that is a different debate]there sons/husbands new the risks when they took the job on.

All Iam saying is I respect the people in the armed forces.They
cant choose which wars they fight.Take the members of the bomb squad,how many of these men have been maimed and killed trying to protect members of the general public.During the firefighters dispute it was members of the Armed forces who attended fires and traffic accidents.

Today two women police officers have been shot while on duty,one tragically died.I am sure a service of rememberance
will be held for this WPC.and rightly so, a service were friends,colleagues and family can take a moment to remember.

This is why I buy a poppy,to remember the members of the armed forces who have died on duty,whether it be on some battlefield far from home,or fighting a fire in the next street.

by **kazza 1** » Sat Nov 19, 2005 9:40 pm

The Red Baron wrote:
andy_g wrote:RB, i really don't want to disrespect your nephew or yourself, but a career soldier is a career soldier, regardless of background. they do their job with their eyes open, knowing that they will have to follow orders and that those orders will at some time be to go and kill or be killed. anyone who joins the army thinking otherwise, that it is just a decent everyday job like any other is badly mistaken.

i spent a long long time unemployed myself, and know people who joined the army as a way out of that. give me the street corner any time. i have a lot more respect for someone who finds their own way out of that, their own way to make a living than someone who just goes and feeds the governments need for grunts to do its dirty work.

Andy I understand your point now.All armies do the dirty work of governments.It is true anybody entering a recruiting office and enlisting does so with their eyes open.Should they be called upon to go to war they cant complain.They might hold political views,about the legitimacy of the war but as a member of the armed forces they have no choice,they made that choice when they enlisted.

We have all seen families of soldiers killed in Iraq on the television,while this is very sad[some might say they shouldnt have been there,for me that is a different debate]there sons/husbands new the risks when they took the job on.

All Iam saying is I respect the people in the armed forces.They
cant choose which wars they fight.Take the members of the bomb squad,how many of these men have been maimed and killed trying to protect members of the general public.During the firefighters dispute it was members of the Armed forces who attended fires and traffic accidents.

Today two women police officers have been shot while on duty,one tragically died.I am sure a service of rememberance
will be held for this WPC.and rightly so, a service were friends,colleagues and family can take a moment to remember.

This is why I buy a poppy,to remember the members of the armed forces who have died on duty,whether it be on some battlefield far from home,or fighting a fire in the next street.

Well said!
That was really tragic what happened to those two policewomen. They where, at the end of the day "just doing their job". As you have said there will be a service of rememberance for the woman who died. Just like there has been for every policeman/woman, solider and brave members of the public, who have died saving the lives of their fellow country men.....
In Northern Ireland alone 3225 people died between 1969 and 1994 (Up untill the 1st peace agreement) These people died fighting for what they believed was right and most of these people where not in the armed forces. It don't matter if we think it was wrong. I wear a poppy to remember these people, as well as those who fought in WW1, WW2 and Iraq.

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