Liverpool FC Forum

i think reina physically is still a very good keeper with years left in the tank but mentally i think he had stopped buying into the project.
he`d been here when the likes of gerrard was in his prime, alonso and mascherano were dominating games, torres was scoring for fun, carragher and sami were at the top of their games and we had a decent cast of able supporting actors like kuyt, arbelloa, benayoun, aurelio etc who all contributed to the cause too.
he`d also been brought here by a manager who took this club to 2 CL finals and another semi final in 4 years.
piece by piece reina saw the jigsaw start to unravel around him, he saw team mates leave for barca and real madrid, he saw team mates go to our arch rivals for big money, he saw team mates getting old and he saw the man who put that team together handed his p45.
given all that it`s not really surprising that reina said in his book that he seriously considered leaving himself.
i think reina had lost heart seeing such a great team broken up around him and i think in his heart of hearts he wasnt convinced we could lick our wounds and be competative again quickly. especially with what was happening off the field at that time too.
moving him out and bringing in someone who is young, motivated and hungry for success was the right thing to do.

He saved a penalty= hero, keep him
He didnt save a penalty= zero, get rid

damjan193 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 2:23 pm wrote:The main thing for me so far is that Mign has saved us from losing at least 6 points (some would say that he has costed us 2 (Newcastle) but I think that's harsh). The double save against Stoke and the save against Benteke is something that I'm sure Reina (with the form that he was in) wouldn't have caught. He would have done just what you say Stu, stand still, like he did numerous times for the past 2 or more seasons and cost us goals.

I think that people are forgetting in how Sh*t form Reina was actually. And for a long period as well. We just couldn't afford that anymore.

I actually don't think that Mignolet is an improvement on an on form Reina. It was always going to be hard to replace one of our best goalies ever. But Reina time had come. Him being in a bad form for a long time, like he almost didn't care, and a few other reasons contributed to his departure. I think that most people don't realize that it just had to happen. It was going to be a hard job replacing such a great keeper but I think that we did great. Mignolet has done a fantastic job so far and he deserves some praise.

Pepe made a few mistakes but I think you are massively overplaying those few mistakes. The season before BR arrived only three keepers kept more clean sheets.

StuYesThatStu » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:46 pm wrote:

JC_81 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:05 pm wrote:What a bunch of drama queens.

Mignolet is clearly a good keeper, a better shot stopper than Reina, better value for money and with time to improve.

Reina had gone stale and lets not forget his ability to come for crosses wasn't his strength either.

Mignolet has been worth extra points to us this season v Stoke and Sunderland. Newcastle game is the only one he's been poor.

Is he a better shot stopper though really?

I didn't see much evidence of that when Cabaye hit one from 156 yards the other week.

I'm not convinced, I think the lads a "for the camera's" type goalkeeper. Half of the shots Mignolet has come up with some wonder dive for are the sort of shots Reina would simply... stand still... and catch.

Reina was a far superior keeper from his distribution, handling, command of his area, speed off his line, claiming of crosses, positioning, reading of the game and actually playing with his feet and general kicking.

The only think Mignolet has on Reina are reflexes and agility and its not as if Pepe was poor in these areas.

Completely disagree mate.

Mignolet's pen save/follow up shot save v Stoke, his double save from Benteke v Villa and his save with his right foot when Gardner was 1 v 1 at Sunderland were absolutely top class saves and potentially won us points.  That's probably more memorable saves than Reina made in his last 3 seasons with us if I'm honest.  Don't know what happened to Reina, it's as if he just gave up a few years ago.  I think there's some truth in Yakka's theory that he became demoralised at the quality team around him disappearing post-Rafa, but at times we might as well have had a cardboard cut out in goal with some of the lacklustre performances he was putting in.  Mignolet is an improvement I have no doubt.

As for Cabaye's effort, didn't look 156 yards out from where I was sat at St James, but I've already stated Mignolet should have done better.  Same goes for Dummitt's goal where I feel Mignolet could have come and claimed Cabaye's floated free kick in before the danger developed.  But that game aside he's been steady.

Could be worse, we could have Joe Hart

JC_81 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:25 pm wrote:

StuYesThatStu » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:46 pm wrote:

JC_81 » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:05 pm wrote:What a bunch of drama queens.

Mignolet is clearly a good keeper, a better shot stopper than Reina, better value for money and with time to improve.

Reina had gone stale and lets not forget his ability to come for crosses wasn't his strength either.

Mignolet has been worth extra points to us this season v Stoke and Sunderland. Newcastle game is the only one he's been poor.

Is he a better shot stopper though really?

I didn't see much evidence of that when Cabaye hit one from 156 yards the other week.

I'm not convinced, I think the lads a "for the camera's" type goalkeeper. Half of the shots Mignolet has come up with some wonder dive for are the sort of shots Reina would simply... stand still... and catch.

Reina was a far superior keeper from his distribution, handling, command of his area, speed off his line, claiming of crosses, positioning, reading of the game and actually playing with his feet and general kicking.

The only think Mignolet has on Reina are reflexes and agility and its not as if Pepe was poor in these areas.

Completely disagree mate.

Mignolet's pen save/follow up shot save v Stoke, his double save from Benteke v Villa and his save with his right foot when Gardner was 1 v 1 at Sunderland were absolutely top class saves and potentially won us points.  That's probably more memorable saves than Reina made in his last 3 seasons with us if I'm honest.  Don't know what happened to Reina, it's as if he just gave up a few years ago.  I think there's some truth in Yakka's theory that he became demoralised at the quality team around him disappearing post-Rafa, but at times we might as well have had a cardboard cut out in goal with some of the lacklustre performances he was putting in.  Mignolet is an improvement I have no doubt.

As for Cabaye's effort, didn't look 156 yards out from where I was sat at St James, but I've already stated Mignolet should have done better.  Same goes for Dummitt's goal where I feel Mignolet could have come and claimed Cabaye's floated free kick in before the danger developed.  But that game aside he's been steady.

Could be worse, we could have Joe Hart

Ok, 155 yards then.

Hart's a quality keeper who's struggling with average defenders in front of him who he clearly doesn't trust. Having quality around you helps immensely no matter what position you play in. I believe part of what made Reina appear worse than he was was Sami Hyypia leaving.

The two things you pointed out have effectively re-itterated where I said Mignolet's strengths are. His reflexes are excellent, his handling though for me is extremely suspect. There has been quite a few times already where he has "saved a shot" into a dangerous area and he's got lucky and got away with it. This wasn't something Reina made a habbit of.

People can point to "wonder saves" and dives all they like. To be quite honest, I'm not in slightest bit interested by any of that. Good keepers often make saves look really easy. Something Reina done alot by simply being in the right position in the first place. The "downfall" of Pepe was a complete falicy. He had probably 10 bad games in his entire Liverpool career keeping clean sheet after clean sheet.

The fact is, good players do something that "oh god I'm going to mention a Manc" Alex Ferguson once used to describe Ferdinand. IE they "put fires out before they start".

Meaning, for centre halves (they intercept a pass on the half way line) before needing to make that last ditch tackle. Or for a keeper they are already in the right position to just easily catch a ball or parry it rather than making some sort of mad dive.

There were alot of times over the years with Pepe in goal where someone shoots and you think "oh Sh*t" only for him to be standing there with an easy parry and catch. Already in Mignolet's early Liverpool career... there has been alot of shots where I've not thought much of and he's gone diving across his goal and palmed it away.

Yeah I appreciate Reina had that knack of plucking shots out of the air and making them look easy, he was good positionally.  But that's in terms of shots from a reasonable distance.  Reina wouldn't have made Benteke or Gardner's efforts look easy, they'd have been past him and in the net before he reacted.  Even in his better seasons with us Reina rarely saved shots he didn't have a right to.  Even pens, he came with a reputation and did produce in shoot outs v Chelsea and West Ham, but otherwise his record from open play was no great shakes.  I'm not criticising him for not saving enough pens, the keeper's always second favourite, but my point is the best keepers, as well as being consistently steady, win you points by pulling off penalty saves or shots in one-on-ones that they shouldn't.  Schmeichel was the master at this although I hate to admit it.  Reina didn't do it enough, like I say Mignolet has made more memorable saves 9 games into a season than Reina made in the last 3 years.

For me, Reina's coming for crosses was shaky at times too.  His distribution was good and he was one of the best 'sweeper keepers' I've seen, but even those aspects of his game deteriorated in his last few seasons.  How many goals actually came from a direct Reina kick or throw though?  Probably a handful in the 7 or 8 seasons he was here.  That'll make pi.ss all difference to our league position on an annual basis.

Hart is in serious danger of becoming the next David James mate, it's a deeper problem than having no confidence in his centre halves.  It's himself he doesn't have confidence in.  It wasn't lack of confidence in his centre halves that made him palm in Morrison's effort v Scotland.  I rate the lad and I think he'll come good again, but the longer his poor run continues, there is a  danger he'll go to pieces mentally and never be the same player again, which would be a shame.  If I was Man City I would be worried.  If they had a decent back-up keeper other than that clown Pantillimon then he'd be seeing some bench time.

JC_81 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:06 am wrote:Yeah I appreciate Reina had that knack of plucking shots out of the air and making them look easy, he was good positionally.  But that's in terms of shots from a reasonable distance.  Reina wouldn't have made Benteke or Gardner's efforts look easy, they'd have been past him and in the net before he reacted.  Even in his better seasons with us Reina rarely saved shots he didn't have a right to.  Even pens, he came with a reputation and did produce in shoot outs v Chelsea and West Ham, but otherwise his record from open play was no great shakes.  I'm not criticising him for not saving enough pens, the keeper's always second favourite, but my point is the best keepers, as well as being consistently steady, win you points by pulling off penalty saves or shots in one-on-ones that they shouldn't.  Schmeichel was the master at this although I hate to admit it.  Reina didn't do it enough, like I say Mignolet has made more memorable saves 9 games into a season than Reina made in the last 3 years.

For me, Reina's coming for crosses was shaky at times too.  His distribution was good and he was one of the best 'sweeper keepers' I've seen, but even those aspects of his game deteriorated in his last few seasons.  How many goals actually came from a direct Reina kick or throw though?  Probably a handful in the 7 or 8 seasons he was here.  That'll make pi.ss all difference to our league position on an annual basis.

Hart is in serious danger of becoming the next David James mate, it's a deeper problem than having no confidence in his centre halves.  It's himself he doesn't have confidence in.  It wasn't lack of confidence in his centre halves that made him palm in Morrison's effort v Scotland.  I rate the lad and I think he'll come good again, but the longer his poor run continues, there is a  danger he'll go to pieces mentally and never be the same player again, which would be a shame.  If I was Man City I would be worried.  If they had a decent back-up keeper other than that clown Pantillimon then he'd be seeing some bench time.

On Reina I disagree. I still think he's head and shoulders above. There are plenty or world class saves I can remember. I agree he wasn't the best in the air, but he didn't make me nervous like Mignolet does. Its only a matter of time before his poor footwork and shoddy arial ability cost us a goal. I really think you're under estimating how good a keeper Pepe is. Even Ferguson said he thought he was a "top top player". He's one of the few players we've had over the years that was labelled "the best in the league" by our own fans and they were actually right about. To be honest, I was hoping we would have signed Begovic instead of Mignolet who I think is a far more complete goalkeeper. For me, he's the best keeper in the league with Cech a close second. The two of them are outstanding goalkeepers.

I think out of the "projected top seven" there is only Everton with a debatabley worse goalkeeper.

On Hart I can see your point, but I firmly believe he has the quality and ability to get through it. He's probably made a handful of mistakes in two years. Not really a big issue that for me. Even the goal against Chelsea they were all blaming Hart, but that was down to not trusting his centre half... then what the f*ck the centre half was doing heading it back instead of wide once he seen Hart coming off his line I have no idea!!

StuYesThatStu » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:38 pm wrote:

JC_81 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 12:06 am wrote:Yeah I appreciate Reina had that knack of plucking shots out of the air and making them look easy, he was good positionally.  But that's in terms of shots from a reasonable distance.  Reina wouldn't have made Benteke or Gardner's efforts look easy, they'd have been past him and in the net before he reacted.  Even in his better seasons with us Reina rarely saved shots he didn't have a right to.  Even pens, he came with a reputation and did produce in shoot outs v Chelsea and West Ham, but otherwise his record from open play was no great shakes.  I'm not criticising him for not saving enough pens, the keeper's always second favourite, but my point is the best keepers, as well as being consistently steady, win you points by pulling off penalty saves or shots in one-on-ones that they shouldn't.  Schmeichel was the master at this although I hate to admit it.  Reina didn't do it enough, like I say Mignolet has made more memorable saves 9 games into a season than Reina made in the last 3 years.

For me, Reina's coming for crosses was shaky at times too.  His distribution was good and he was one of the best 'sweeper keepers' I've seen, but even those aspects of his game deteriorated in his last few seasons.  How many goals actually came from a direct Reina kick or throw though?  Probably a handful in the 7 or 8 seasons he was here.  That'll make pi.ss all difference to our league position on an annual basis.

Hart is in serious danger of becoming the next David James mate, it's a deeper problem than having no confidence in his centre halves.  It's himself he doesn't have confidence in.  It wasn't lack of confidence in his centre halves that made him palm in Morrison's effort v Scotland.  I rate the lad and I think he'll come good again, but the longer his poor run continues, there is a  danger he'll go to pieces mentally and never be the same player again, which would be a shame.  If I was Man City I would be worried.  If they had a decent back-up keeper other than that clown Pantillimon then he'd be seeing some bench time.

On Reina I disagree. I still think he's head and shoulders above. There are plenty or world class saves I can remember. I agree he wasn't the best in the air, but he didn't make me nervous like Mignolet does. Its only a matter of time before his poor footwork and shoddy arial ability cost us a goal. I really think you're under estimating how good a keeper Pepe is. Even Ferguson said he thought he was a "top top player". He's one of the few players we've had over the years that was labelled "the best in the league" by our own fans and they were actually right about. To be honest, I was hoping we would have signed Begovic instead of Mignolet who I think is a far more complete goalkeeper. For me, he's the best keeper in the league with Cech a close second. The two of them are outstanding goalkeepers.

I think out of the "projected top seven" there is only Everton with a debatabley worse goalkeeper.

On Hart I can see your point, but I firmly believe he has the quality and ability to get through it. He's probably made a handful of mistakes in two years. Not really a big issue that for me. Even the goal against Chelsea they were all blaming Hart, but that was down to not trusting his centre half... then what the f*ck the centre half was doing heading it back instead of wide once he seen Hart coming off his line I have no idea!!

You are spending way too many words to basically alter reality to what is plain and simple to see ,Mignolet is an excellent keeper and his abilities won us points ,we could have easily started the league with consecutive draws if it wasn't for his heroics. He is a great prospect and signings and I don't see the point of analyzing him to death considering his performance which is plain to see.

Well Stu, you can't really believe that Scezny(sp?) and De Gea are better keepers than Mignolet. Or even Joe Hart with the form that he is in now. I really never understood what's all the fuss about De Gea honestly. Very average goalie that doesn't bring much confidence. Mignolet and De Gea are a bit similar actually but Mign is the better of the two IMO.

This where I would put Mignolet at the moment:
1.Cech
2.Begovic
3.Lloris
4.Mignolet

As for being better than Reina, he has a lot more games to play before we cast that judgement. Personally, I don't believe that he ever will be better than Reina in his best years, but he will be a great goalie nevertheless. The time for Reina had come and it had to happen and I believe that we did great in replacing him.

For what it is worth I think Reina is top drawer and was totally gutted when he left. That said Mignolet has pleasantly surprised me, his performances have been as good as Reina's were prior to his departure. Now if we qualify for CL, only time will tell whether Mignolet is CL quality as Reina was.

Based on current form he gives no evidence or suggestion that he couldn't cut it in the CL.

I'm fully behind him.

damjan193 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:57 am wrote:Well Stu, you can't really believe that Scezny(sp?) and De Gea are better keepers than Mignolet. Or even Joe Hart with the form that he is in now. I really never understood what's all the fuss about De Gea honestly. Very average goalie that doesn't bring much confidence. Mignolet and De Gea are a bit similar actually but Mign is the better of the two IMO.

This where I would put Mignolet at the moment:
1.Cech
2.Begovic
3.Lloris
4.Mignolet

As for being better than Reina, he has a lot more games to play before we cast that judgement. Personally, I don't believe that he ever will be better than Reina in his best years, but he will be a great goalie nevertheless. The time for Reina had come and it had to happen and I believe that we did great in replacing him.

I think to put Mignolet in the top 6 or 7 in the league is quite simply the attitude of another deluded fan thinking their own is better than the rest.

StuYesThatStu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:09 am wrote:

damjan193 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:57 am wrote:Well Stu, you can't really believe that Scezny(sp?) and De Gea are better keepers than Mignolet. Or even Joe Hart with the form that he is in now. I really never understood what's all the fuss about De Gea honestly. Very average goalie that doesn't bring much confidence. Mignolet and De Gea are a bit similar actually but Mign is the better of the two IMO.

This where I would put Mignolet at the moment:
1.Cech
2.Begovic
3.Lloris
4.Mignolet

As for being better than Reina, he has a lot more games to play before we cast that judgement. Personally, I don't believe that he ever will be better than Reina in his best years, but he will be a great goalie nevertheless. The time for Reina had come and it had to happen and I believe that we did great in replacing him.

I think to put Mignolet in the top 6 or 7 in the league is quite simply the attitude of another deluded fan thinking their own is better than the rest.

Never understood what is the point of these kind of posts. If you have a different opinion, explain why and try a counter argument.

damjan193 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:28 am wrote:

StuYesThatStu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:09 am wrote:

damjan193 » Wed Oct 30, 2013 12:57 am wrote:Well Stu, you can't really believe that Scezny(sp?) and De Gea are better keepers than Mignolet. Or even Joe Hart with the form that he is in now. I really never understood what's all the fuss about De Gea honestly. Very average goalie that doesn't bring much confidence. Mignolet and De Gea are a bit similar actually but Mign is the better of the two IMO.

This where I would put Mignolet at the moment:
1.Cech
2.Begovic
3.Lloris
4.Mignolet

As for being better than Reina, he has a lot more games to play before we cast that judgement. Personally, I don't believe that he ever will be better than Reina in his best years, but he will be a great goalie nevertheless. The time for Reina had come and it had to happen and I believe that we did great in replacing him.

I think to put Mignolet in the top 6 or 7 in the league is quite simply the attitude of another deluded fan thinking their own is better than the rest.

Never understood what is the point of these kind of posts. If you have a different opinion, explain why and try a counter argument.

Fair enough.

You should have seen what I said to Kenny Kan in another thread. #cr*p post



Basically I believe De Gea and "The Arsenal Keeper" (not even attempting to spell it... (Why can't we just have english player in this country with English names that are easy to spell?) are better goal keepers.

De Gea is for me equal to Mignolet's strengths but less error prone. I also believe De Gea to be alot better at communicating. He definately for me has better feet.

The Arsenal Keeper is a very good goalkeeper. He has the lot apart from concentration and positional play. These two area's of his game I believe to be distinctly average (and I don't mean premier league average). Everything else I believe he's superior again to Mignolet.

Mignolet isn't a bad keeper. But he's not for me one of the best in the league. When you're used to seeing Reina between the sticks, its a bit of a downer for me personally.

That better?

Also, I think I rate Begovic above Cech... (not sure) would have to watch them both again.

StuYesThatStu » Wed Oct 30, 2013 2:41 am wrote:Fair enough.

You should have seen what I said to Kenny Kan in another thread. #cr*p post



Basically I believe De Gea and "The Arsenal Keeper" (not even attempting to spell it... (Why can't we just have english player in this country with English names that are easy to spell?) are better goal keepers.

De Gea is for me equal to Mignolet's strengths but less error prone. I also believe De Gea to be alot better at communicating. He definately for me has better feet.

The Arsenal Keeper is a very good goalkeeper. He has the lot apart from concentration and positional play. These two area's of his game I believe to be distinctly average (and I don't mean premier league average). Everything else I believe he's superior again to Mignolet.

Mignolet isn't a bad keeper. But he's not for me one of the best in the league. When you're used to seeing Reina between the sticks, its a bit of a downer for me personally.

That better?

Also, I think I rate Begovic above Cech... (not sure) would have to watch them both again.

Yes, that is better.

You made a good point about De Gea being better with his feet, but that's about it I think. Less mistake prone? Far from it. De Gea might be the most unconfident goalie in the league. He works good when he isn't thinking much, he relies on his reflexes, very similar to Mignolet. From what I've seen, Mign is better at shot-stopping than De Gea and that's better than the "good with his feet" argument.

"The Arsenal Keeper" is very average at everything. Don't think that there's an area that he's very good at. He doesn't look too bright either. Prone to mistakes as well.

I just can't see who would you put ahead of Mignolet. Maybe Hart (not with this form though) and I would understand if you put De Gea ahead of him too but that would reduce Mign to 6th while you believe that he isn't even in the top 7? I think that you're being too critical.

I think that my list of keepers is realistic considering this season so far.

I've been reading this particular thread with interest for a while now.
Allow me to chip in with my own thoughts.

In terms of out and out ability, I think few will argue that ability wise, Reina was the better overall keeper. Operative word here being was. In his last 2 seasons with us, I found him to be distinctly average and IMO, off form. The reasons behind that can be argued till the cows come home. There is that old adage that form is temporary, class permanent... but 2 years is not acceptable for me.

Simon has started his liverpool career well and I think even fewer will argue that he has been worth at least 4-6 points to our points tally already. Yes, he does have his moments when he gives me the heebie jeebies and of course there are a few areas where he needs to work on. But I definitely would not call him average. Like KK, for me the primary skill that a keeper needs is shot stopping and he is defintely better than Reina in that area.... much better.

Its a question of how you setup your team... not all keepers need to be excellent distributors of the ball. I would love one and it is definitely a distinct advantage but not completely essential. If it came down to choosing a keeper who is excellent at distribution but is average at shot stopping vs the vise versa, i would defintely choose the latter.

There are other ways to get the ball down field without needing a keeper to always be the one who spots the opening. The primary function of the keeper is to keep the goal safe. Everything else is a bonus and is what separates the the truly top drawer from the merely good.

Do i think he is in the top 6 or 7 keepers in the league? Yes he is.
Better than Begovic? No
Better than De Gea? Possibly
Better than Cech? No
Better than LLOris? Yes
Better than The Arsenal Keeper? Not even close.


Is he a good keeper? Definitely.

Once the defense stabilizes in front of him and he gets used to their methods and preferences and builds an understanding with them, he will be more than sound in my book.

World Class (god, i hate that term btw)? No he is not.... but neither was Reina who is a good keeper and is better (at his best) than Simon..... BUT he was MASSIVELY over rated by a lot of people and had too big a mouth and an attitude/persona I never liked. Under current conditions, I would take Simon over him any day.

After the debacle with the Barcelona nonsense, the club did the absolute right thing by letting him go. I was glad to see the back of him.
Wether we replaced him with an equivalent or better keeper in Simon is still up in the air but I would say no at the moment. But we did get a player who is better for the team IMO. And I think that this is one player that we will not rue as a mistake in the future.