Liverpool FC Forum

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue May 07, 2013 9:16 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Tue May 07, 2013 8:09 pm wrote:Have you already forgotten what you posted in this thread about sticking to "football debate"

general-chat-forum/suspending-tw-ts-for-bickering-on-this-forum-anyone-t30180-15.html

I used to give you the benefit of the doubt Benny ,but lately your attempts to dominate these boards with often indecent haste is becoming
frankly tiresome.... I wont add any thing further on this ,only to finish with its not just me who rather than enter into any form of debate
with you,deems it now an essential part of maintaining their sanity to place you on ignore .

All because I pointed out to you the hypocritical nature of your support when you start preaching about a "unique trait" about paitence as a fan towards players then point out your attitude towards Downing

Benny The Noon » Tue May 07, 2013 8:26 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue May 07, 2013 9:16 pm wrote:

I used to give you the benefit of the doubt Benny ,but lately your attempts to dominate these boards with often indecent haste is becoming
frankly tiresome.... I wont add any thing further on this ,only to finish with its not just me who rather than enter into any form of debate
with you,deems it now an essential part of maintaining their sanity to place you on ignore .

All because I pointed out to you the hypocritical nature of your support when you start preaching about a "unique trait" about paitence as a fan towards players then point out your attitude towards Downing

I wont afford you what you so obviously crave Benny , I've said my piece, and I offer no apologies for delivering what you view as harsh critique.
I think for the benefit of this forum you needed to be made aware .

So the point about Joe Allen and Downing and how you differ in attitude with each player ? This "unique trait" with you profess to have ?

I don't view anything as harsh or crave anything ? Just can't understand the difference in the support when it comes to two different players ?

Allen was just an epic disaster. Except in his 1st few starts he has gone from worse to bad. Right after we signed him i questioned it.
He isn't good enough to be a defensive midfielder as his tackling and positioning is lacking. he hasn't even close enough the vision and creativity to play in an attacking role as he hardly ever scores or produces assists.
He is not physical enough to play in tough battles on the center field.
15 million for what? passing a ball sideways?

It's not like he will all of a sudden gain 30 pounds and become a physical presence, or gain some creative vision and skill just like that. And waiting, what 5 years for him to develop into a decent holding midfielder?
No thanks...

RED BEERGOGGLES » Tue May 07, 2013 6:13 pm wrote:

Benny The Noon » Mon May 06, 2013 8:39 pm wrote:

RED BEERGOGGLES » Mon May 06, 2013 9:09 pm wrote:Patience ,a ridiculous concept I guess ,but one that used to be prevalent amongst supporters.

Werent you just asking for Downing to be shown the door ?

I said patience ,not blind stupidity.

 

Benny The Noon » Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm wrote::laugh:

So the point about Joe Allen and Downing and how you differ in attitude with each player ? This "unique trait" with you profess to have ?

I don't view anything as harsh or crave anything ? Just can't understand the difference in the support when it comes to two different players ?

Allen started the season in fine form and was arguably our best player the first month or so of the season.
His form did badly tail off but I am hopeful that it was more a tiredness issue as he was playing week in week out at a higher level than used to and more games with the Europa league included than used to.
He is also only 22.
Downing was signed as a 27 year old senior player that was expected to be a key performer right from the off.
There shouldnt need to be a bedding in period for someone with about 30 England caps and almost 10 years top flight football experience.

The reason I feel we should be more patient with Allen is - his relatively young age and experience at this level, and the fact that his perfomances when he first signed showed the lad has ability.

Downing has now had almost 2 full seasons and has scored around 7 goals. That's nowhere near good enough and with the age he is he is not likely to get any better.

With Allen I think people need to look at 2 other midefielders we have at the club that were written off very quickly and are now seen as important players in the squad.

Lucas and Henderson.

Ben Patrick » Wed May 08, 2013 10:47 am wrote:

Benny The Noon » Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm wrote::laugh:

So the point about Joe Allen and Downing and how you differ in attitude with each player ? This "unique trait" with you profess to have ?

I don't view anything as harsh or crave anything ? Just can't understand the difference in the support when it comes to two different players ?

Allen started the season in fine form and was arguably our best player the first month or so of the season.
His form did badly tail off but I am hopeful that it was more a tiredness issue as he was playing week in week out at a higher level than used to and more games with the Europa league included than used to.
He is also only 22.
Downing was signed as a 27 year old senior player that was expected to be a key performer right from the off.
There shouldnt need to be a bedding in period for someone with about 30 England caps and almost 10 years top flight football experience.

The reason I feel we should be more patient with Allen is - his relatively young age and experience at this level, and the fact that his perfomances when he first signed showed the lad has ability.

Downing has now had almost 2 full seasons and has scored around 7 goals. That's nowhere near good enough and with the age he is he is not likely to get any better.

With Allen I think people need to look at 2 other midefielders we have at the club that were written off very quickly and are now seen as important players in the squad.

Lucas and Henderson.

Good to read more common sense.

welcome back btw.

Thanks Bam

I still come on here and have a read, just dont post very much.

Downing is a player that massively frustrates me though.

Ben Patrick » Wed May 08, 2013 10:47 am wrote:

Benny The Noon » Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm wrote::laugh:

So the point about Joe Allen and Downing and how you differ in attitude with each player ? This "unique trait" with you profess to have ?

I don't view anything as harsh or crave anything ? Just can't understand the difference in the support when it comes to two different players ?

Allen started the season in fine form and was arguably our best player the first month or so of the season.
His form did badly tail off but I am hopeful that it was more a tiredness issue as he was playing week in week out at a higher level than used to and more games with the Europa league included than used to.
He is also only 22.
Downing was signed as a 27 year old senior player that was expected to be a key performer right from the off.
There shouldnt need to be a bedding in period for someone with about 30 England caps and almost 10 years top flight football experience.

The reason I feel we should be more patient with Allen is - his relatively young age and experience at this level, and the fact that his perfomances when he first signed showed the lad has ability.

Downing has now had almost 2 full seasons and has scored around 7 goals. That's nowhere near good enough and with the age he is he is not likely to get any better.

With Allen I think people need to look at 2 other midefielders we have at the club that were written off very quickly and are now seen as important players in the squad.

Lucas and Henderson.

Nice read mate, and I echo your sentiments on Allen.

Ben Patrick » Wed May 08, 2013 11:47 am wrote:

Benny The Noon » Tue May 07, 2013 8:38 pm wrote::laugh:

So the point about Joe Allen and Downing and how you differ in attitude with each player ? This "unique trait" with you profess to have ?

I don't view anything as harsh or crave anything ? Just can't understand the difference in the support when it comes to two different players ?

Allen started the season in fine form and was arguably our best player the first month or so of the season.
His form did badly tail off but I am hopeful that it was more a tiredness issue as he was playing week in week out at a higher level than used to and more games with the Europa league included than used to.
He is also only 22.
Downing was signed as a 27 year old senior player that was expected to be a key performer right from the off.
There shouldnt need to be a bedding in period for someone with about 30 England caps and almost 10 years top flight football experience.

The reason I feel we should be more patient with Allen is - his relatively young age and experience at this level, and the fact that his perfomances when he first signed showed the lad has ability.

Downing has now had almost 2 full seasons and has scored around 7 goals. That's nowhere near good enough and with the age he is he is not likely to get any better.

With Allen I think people need to look at 2 other midefielders we have at the club that were written off very quickly and are now seen as important players in the squad.

Lucas and Henderson.

I'm really unsure about Allen tbh

I don't really know what sort of centre mid he is trying to be. I don't think he is strong enough to be a DM or dynamic enough to be an attacking mid.

I'm not sure which role he will play especially when we should be looking to get a "destructive DM" to play in the middle.

I'm not even sure he played that well at the start - it possibly was more that he wasnt playing as bad as others. It felt towards the end that BR was trying to shoe horn him into the team and it left the mid unbalanced so what is BR going to do with him next season ? Think one of Allen or Henderson will miss out - and going by this season it should be Allen.

I think he is as Rodgers said at the start of the season a Xabi like player.
He is a player who keeps the ball moving quickly.
I would say his movement is much better than the other midfielders we have in respect of making space for others.
Joe is a player that knits things together. He has reasonable pace and can beat a man in tight spaces. Clever little player.
You are right about Rodgers shoehorning him in in the second half of the season and i thought that was unfair on Henderson who at the time was playing well.
For me though its about having options and both Allen and Henderson are good options.
Football is definitely a squad game these days and too many of our players this season played too many games too close together. Sterling in the first half of the season and Johnson in the second half. They look shattered both physically and mentally.
I also agree about getting another midfielder with power in. I'd have Diame all day, the two games against us this season he has been the outstanding midfielder. The lad covers ground quickly and is technically good enough. He can also strike a ball well.

If we started next season with these as options for the 3 man midfield positions i would be happy.

Gerrard
Henderson
Lucas
Allen
Diame

One thing i will also say about Allen is he will love playing with Coutinho. The little brazilian is top quality in his movement between the lines as Rafa would say.
The two of them next season will love playing together.

I don't think he has the range of passing to play any Xabi role though and Lucas does the "continuity role" better and adds also a bit of steel and drive into his game

I just can't see what he will add in the middle.

Diame I wouldn't touch purely on medical grounds with regards his heart

Wanyama though is a better fit IMO

Allen was one of our better performers at the beginning of the season but sheesh it feels like a long time ago. Since then I've bared witness to him practically playing for the opposition such was the horrendous nature of his passing. His confidence was shot (that's what it looked like) and it got worse, then the groans of those misplaced passes were getting louder and imo Rodgers just exacerbated the issue, hell bent on forcing his young expensive signing into the side. It didn't do him any favours. His lack of height and physical stature also became more prominent as his poor run continued, being easily brushed off the ball like a kid - and unfortunately he just looked out of his depth.

He is/was useful at the beginning though and displayed intelligence and even composure by always finding an outlet and retaining possession in tricky/tight situations. I just have no idea where you'd fit him in, he seems, dare I say it a luxury midfielder. If you had a couple, or at least one ball playing enforcer in midfield behind him (ball playing in the sense they can get about a bit, more so than Gerrard and Lucas and have physical stature and presence about them) you could get a decent enough balance in midfield. But with Lucas and Allen as we saw, and an ever ageing Gerrard we literally were bullied off the park in many games this season and completely capitulated in midfield and subsequently made our defense look even worse than what they are.

I think Allen, as it stands is a good squad player and a useful option to have for us but the dynamics of the side IMO need to be exact when trying to fit him into the team, and that may mean changing one of the other two CM to properly accommodate him.

Kenny Kan » Thu May 09, 2013 10:01 am wrote:Allen was one of our better performers at the beginning of the season but sheesh it feels like a long time ago. Since then I've bared witness to him practically playing for the opposition such was the horrendous nature of his passing. His confidence was shot (that's what it looked like) and it got worse, then the groans of those misplaced passes were getting louder and imo Rodgers just exacerbated the issue, hell bent on forcing his young expensive signing into the side. It didn't do him any favours. His lack of height and physical stature also became more prominent as his poor run continued, being easily brushed off the ball like a kid - and unfortunately he just looked out of his depth.

He is/was useful at the beginning though and displayed intelligence and even composure by always finding an outlet and retaining possession in tricky/tight situations. I just have no idea where you'd fit him in, he seems, dare I say it a luxury midfielder. If you had a couple, or at least one ball playing enforcer in midfield behind him (ball playing in the sense they can get about a bit, more so than Gerrard and Lucas and have physical stature and presence about them) you could get a decent enough balance in midfield. But with Lucas and Allen as we saw, and an ever ageing Gerrard we literally were bullied off the park in many games this season and completely capitulated in midfield and subsequently made our defense look even worse than what they are.

I think Allen, as it stands is a good squad player and a useful option to have for us but the dynamics of the side IMO need to be exact when trying to fit him into the team, and that may mean changing one of the other two CM to properly accommodate him.

Cant disagree with that post.
I think like you said the other midfielders we have dont compliment him too well at the moment.
But over the course of a long season he will definitely be required and if we can bring in someone with a bit of power then we could have a bit of everything within our options.
Benny i havent seen enough of Wanyama to say if he is a good option but know he is highly rated.
Not sure on Diame's health issues but think he is a top player.

When Allen first played for the reds I thought we had a truly special player on our hands ,his use of the ball in tight spaces and his
distribution was top notch ,and he was lauded on the Kop for his ability to pass the ball quickly and effectively. So taken that into
account his fall from grace was a swift one ,but I still firmly believe next season with the right midfielder's on the field he can
regain the exuberance and promise he first showed. I also believe that with the personnel we have recruited he could be a stand
out performer next season.

Looking forward to seeing him on the same pitch as Coutinho, whose genius and the attention an opposing team needs to give him
makes a CM's job seem relatively simple.... I definitely don't believe Rodgers will sell the lad ,especially given Joe was one of his
first signings .