Liverpool FC Forum

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:40 pm wrote:

7_Kewell » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:01 pm wrote:

ycsatbjywtbiastkamb » Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:52 pm wrote:what was he supposed to do at newcastle to be considered a success? win them their first league title since the days when people rode around on penny farthing bikes? is that all?
he finished 2nd with newcastle and took them to their first f.a cup final in a generation, he even beat barcelona in the CL, that is good going as manager of newcastle.
dalglish has an excellent managerial record.

He took Keegan’s free flowing, ultra attacking side and finished 2nd. He then employed his own players, tactics and approach that smothered the creative life out of them. Kenny transformed Newcaslte from a title challenger into mid table also ran in under 2 years. Sure he had some cup runs, just like he did at Celtic...but the bottom line is he’s struggled to get to grips with the league. Everyone talks about the 1980s...but conveniently forgets the failures that saw Kenny leave football management behind 12 years ago. How can he turn this around when his mistakes are EXACTLY THE SAME.

dalglish was a bit unlucky at newcastle, because he had shearer he let ferdinand (and ginola) go but then shearer got injured and was out practically the whole season. he brought in 2 strikers (stephane guivarch and jon dahl tommasson) and although they both flopped one of them (tommasson) came good eventually and ended up playing for AC milan and won serie A and the champions league with them, later on at the end of his milan career he came on against us in istanbul and was one of only 2 milan players who scored in the penalty shootout. it was a similar story with some of his other signings, the likes of hammaan, speed and solano all ended up firm fans favourites but after kenny had left. kenny didnt help himself though by bringing rush and barnes to the club, once that happened the newcastle fans thought he was just giving his mates a job.
if he would have had more time i think he could have done something at newcastle, a lot of his signings came good down the line.

From the toon fans i know, he was sacked because the fans hated his style of play. 1 up front at St James' Park and struggling to get goals after Keegan's era drove them mad. The results were also patchy, especially in the league. Sound familiar?

Roger Red Hat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:43 pm wrote:he bought players that we're playing well, week in week out, on top of their games at the respective clubs. can't fault the man for buying players that show the level of skill and class required.

With Carroll and Henderson he's brought potential, the problem with that is he's taken a massive gamble paying a total of £51m for two young individuals who may or may not become successful footballers and at the moment neither one can honestly claim to have lit the blue touch paper. He's spent £20m on a decent winger who this season has shown virtually no end product and he's spent £7m on a player who was a big fish in a small pond, who can only play in a midfield trio where there are two other players around him to support him, he doesn't have this at Liverpool and is struggling.

[quote="]

From the toon fans i know, he was sacked because the fans hated his style of play. 1 up front at St James' Park and struggling to get goals after Keegan's era drove them mad. The results were also patchy, especially in the league. Sound familiar?[/quote]

as i said after dalglish finished 2nd the following season he finished mid table but there were reasons for it, at the start of the season shearer got a terrible injury that kept him out for the season, well, until the f.a cup final anyway! he was never the same player after it thats how bad an injury it was.
the young striker he brought in to replace ferdinand jon dahl tommasson was only 21 and struggled to adapt to english football so the goals dried up and they finished mid table. that can happen, tomasson was a good player who went onto PSV and did so well there he got a move to AC milan it was just that he was a bit too inexperienced at the time. near the end of the season dalglish brought in the striker of france`s world cup winning side guivarch but he hardly played through injury, i think he only played 4 games and scored 1 goal (ironically against us)
dalglish did finish mid table with newcastle that season but there were reasons for it and he got them to a cup final that season dont forget even without shearer.

Who cares what Dalglish did at Newcastle in 1997? I care about what Dalglish does at Liverpool now. I can understand why he was appointed on a full time basis, but this season the honeymoon period is well and truly over and it's now time for Dalglish to re-group his men and strike up a new plan of action for next season. If we perform to a higher standard in the league (consistently) and end up making progress then I'll have no gripes, if it is more of the same, then bring in a new manager, either Rafa or Villas-Boas.

tubby » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:09 pm wrote:LFC2007 if you disagree with his points then tell us why? No use replying with 1 liners of pictures of f*cking sesame street characters mate. Kewell is making an attempt to explain why he feels how he does so as a courtesy you can at least afford him the same level of respect.

Sometimes, mate, I just can't be a'rsed trying to reason with people who are barely open to reason themselves. You can only learn if you are prepared to challenge your own views, but posters like kewell only show an interest in trying to confirm their views, as evidenced by the posts he has made in this thread and in countless others. Anything that goes against his theory that Kenny is past it gets short shrift, so entrenched are his views about the manager.

If he was such a reasonable poster, then it begs being asked why it is he is so dead set against Kenny and was (keen as he is to remind us) so dead set against his appointment to begin with, yet totally open to the appointment of Roy Hodgson, a man who couldn't even manage to win a single one of those "Mickey Mouse" trophies he likes to refer to at any time over the course of his long managerial career. His opinions may be sincere, but it doesn't mean they are sensible.

The reason kewell dwells on Kenny's time at Newcastle and Celtic is because that's where he finds justification for his views. He'd have you believe that those experiences prove beyond doubt that Kenny isn't capable of managing in the modern era, despite the fact that Kenny won the title with Blackburn less than two years prior to taking the Newcastle job. Likewise, according to kewell, all the success Kenny had with us as manager in the late 80s does little to nothing to inform us about Kenny ability to manager a team in the modern era, despite the fundamental principles of the game being no different back then to what they are today. A balanced poster would address precisely these points, but he isn't and he doesn't.

If some significant aspects of the game have changed, and they undoubtedly have, then do a better job of explaining why you believe Kenny is so obviously incapable of adapting to those changes as to make it futile for the club to persist with him, than simply giving a partial account of his previous managerial record or his present spell as manager (Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, disaster, disaster, disaster, tends to be the gist of it).

If Kenny has made some serious mistakes in the transfer market, and I believe he has, as well as having some notable successes, then explain your reasons for believing with such certainty that he cannot rectify those mistakes in future transfer windows. 

Moreover, explain why, if the manager is so incapable of ever managing us to success in the modern era, he managed to get the team playing to a top four standard at the back end of last season, and why it is not possible for him to get the team performing to a similar standard next season.

If people like kewell want to be treated seriously, then they could start by answer some of these questions.

LFC2007 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:57 pm wrote:

tubby » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:09 pm wrote:LFC2007 if you disagree with his points then tell us why? No use replying with 1 liners of pictures of f*cking sesame street characters mate. Kewell is making an attempt to explain why he feels how he does so as a courtesy you can at least afford him the same level of respect.

Sometimes, mate, I just can't be a'rsed trying to reason with people who are barely open to reason themselves. You can only learn if you are prepared to challenge your own views, but posters like kewell only show an interest in trying to confirm their views, as evidenced by the posts he has made in this thread and in countless others. Anything that goes against his theory that Kenny is past it gets short shrift, so entrenched are his views about the manager.

If he was such a reasonable poster, then it begs being asked why it is he is so dead set against Kenny and was (keen as he is to remind us) so dead set against his appointment to begin with, yet totally open to the appointment of Roy Hodgson, a man who couldn't even manage to win a single one of those "Mickey Mouse" trophies he likes to refer to at any time over the course of his long managerial career. His opinions may be sincere, but it doesn't mean they are sensible.

The reason kewell dwells on Kenny's time at Newcastle and Celtic is because that's where he finds justification for his views. He'd have you believe that those experiences prove beyond doubt that Kenny isn't capable of managing in the modern era, despite the fact that Kenny won the title with Blackburn less than two years prior to taking the Newcastle job. Likewise, according to kewell, all the success Kenny had with us as manager in the late 80s does little to nothing to inform us about Kenny ability to manager a team in the modern era, despite the fundamental principles of the game being no different back then to what they are today. A balanced poster would address precisely these points, but he isn't and he doesn't.

If some significant aspects of the game have changed, and they undoubtedly have, then do a better job of explaining why you believe Kenny is so obviously incapable of adapting to those changes as to make it futile for the club to persist with him, than simply giving a partial account of his previous managerial record or his present spell as manager (Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, disaster, disaster, disaster, tends to be the gist of it).

If Kenny has made some serious mistakes in the transfer market, and I believe he has, as well as having some notable successes, then explain your reasons for believing with such certainty that he cannot rectify those mistakes in future transfer windows. 

Moreover, explain why, if the manager is so incapable of ever managing us to success in the modern era, he managed to get the team playing to a top four standard at the back end of last season, and why it is not possible for him to get the team performing to a similar standard next season.

If people like kewell want to be treated seriously, then they could start by answer some of these questions.

First class post.

Kewell has nailed his colours to the mast firmly in regards Kenny and his just says the same thing over and over again. I find it quite amusing that Liverpool fans can so easily dismiss a trophy !! That is the domain of opposition fans when they don't win it. He calls it the mickey mouse trophy because it doesn't fit in with his theory.

the league cup always has, and always will, be a micky mouse cup. It's rare that any of the top 4 take it seriously and for us to paper over the cracks with it is kidding ourselves that we've made progress. Benny's obsessed with some secret agenda going on, but it's nonsense...some of us just arn't convinced that our club is heading in the right direction  on the pitch, and that's been the case for a few years now.

If Kenny turns this around, then great. But my fear is a league cup will be accepted as success. My fear is, if we play like this next season, we'll be battling relegation

The League cup can't be that small of a trophy seeing as Paisley won it three years running.

Chelsea under Maureen took it seriously ( because they won it ), they also took it seriously this season when we played them, same with Man City. So that suggests your talking ***** ( as per ) .

When we won it through the 80's it wasn't a mickey mouse trophy .

You fear might be in a relegation battle yet we were 16th under Hodgson and you didn't seem to be very vocal asking him to go the same way you are with Kenny and previously with Rafa.

Having met Bob Paisley, and read about his demand for success, i can assure you finishing mid table and winning the league cup wouldn't have been considered a success.

And now we're back to Roy again

7_Kewell » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:22 pm wrote:the league cup always has, and always will, be a micky mouse cup. It's rare that any of the top 4 take it seriously and for us to paper over the cracks with it is kidding ourselves that we've made progress. Benny's obsessed with some secret agenda going on, but it's nonsense...some of us just arn't convinced that our club is heading in the right direction  on the pitch, and that's been the case for a few years now.

If Kenny turns this around, then great. But my fear is a league cup will be accepted as success. My fear is, if we play like this next season, we'll be battling relegation

7_Kewell are you also saying that the FA Cup is a mickey mouse cup? Hypthetically suppose we win it this season beat Spurs or Chelsea in the final and finish 10th-12th with 50 points you don't think that with a couple of decent acquisitions in the summer Kenny could transfer the cup form to the league next year so that we push on?

I'm not saying that will happen or it's what I think I'm just putting up the question.

friendlyguy33 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:42 pm wrote:

7_Kewell » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:22 pm wrote:the league cup always has, and always will, be a micky mouse cup. It's rare that any of the top 4 take it seriously and for us to paper over the cracks with it is kidding ourselves that we've made progress. Benny's obsessed with some secret agenda going on, but it's nonsense...some of us just arn't convinced that our club is heading in the right direction  on the pitch, and that's been the case for a few years now.

If Kenny turns this around, then great. But my fear is a league cup will be accepted as success. My fear is, if we play like this next season, we'll be battling relegation

7_Kewell are you also saying that the FA Cup is a mickey mouse cup? Hypthetically suppose we win it this season beat Spurs or Chelsea in the final and finish 10th-12th with 50 points you don't think that with a couple of decent acquisitions in the summer Kenny could transfer the cup form to the league next year so that we push on?

I'm not saying that will happen or it's what I think I'm just putting up the question.

no, for the record, i rate the FA Cup.

LFC2007 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:57 pm wrote:

tubby » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:09 pm wrote:LFC2007 if you disagree with his points then tell us why? No use replying with 1 liners of pictures of f*cking sesame street characters mate. Kewell is making an attempt to explain why he feels how he does so as a courtesy you can at least afford him the same level of respect.

Sometimes, mate, I just can't be a'rsed trying to reason with people who are barely open to reason themselves. You can only learn if you are prepared to challenge your own views, but posters like kewell only show an interest in trying to confirm their views, as evidenced by the posts he has made in this thread and in countless others. Anything that goes against his theory that Kenny is past it gets short shrift, so entrenched are his views about the manager.

If he was such a reasonable poster, then it begs being asked why it is he is so dead set against Kenny and was (keen as he is to remind us) so dead set against his appointment to begin with, yet totally open to the appointment of Roy Hodgson, a man who couldn't even manage to win a single one of those "Mickey Mouse" trophies he likes to refer to at any time over the course of his long managerial career. His opinions may be sincere, but it doesn't mean they are sensible.

The reason kewell dwells on Kenny's time at Newcastle and Celtic is because that's where he finds justification for his views. He'd have you believe that those experiences prove beyond doubt that Kenny isn't capable of managing in the modern era, despite the fact that Kenny won the title with Blackburn less than two years prior to taking the Newcastle job. Likewise, according to kewell, all the success Kenny had with us as manager in the late 80s does little to nothing to inform us about Kenny ability to manager a team in the modern era, despite the fundamental principles of the game being no different back then to what they are today. A balanced poster would address precisely these points, but he isn't and he doesn't.

If some significant aspects of the game have changed, and they undoubtedly have, then do a better job of explaining why you believe Kenny is so obviously incapable of adapting to those changes as to make it futile for the club to persist with him, than simply giving a partial account of his previous managerial record or his present spell as manager (Andy Carroll, Jordan Henderson, disaster, disaster, disaster, tends to be the gist of it).

If Kenny has made some serious mistakes in the transfer market, and I believe he has, as well as having some notable successes, then explain your reasons for believing with such certainty that he cannot rectify those mistakes in future transfer windows. 

Moreover, explain why, if the manager is so incapable of ever managing us to success in the modern era, he managed to get the team playing to a top four standard at the back end of last season, and why it is not possible for him to get the team performing to a similar standard next season.

If people like kewell want to be treated seriously, then they could start by answer some of these questions.

great post mate, i wish i could express myself in a clear manner like that, i wouldnt be grafting my @r$e off on building sites if i could write like that, thats for sure

Boxscarf » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:03 pm wrote:

Roger Red Hat » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:43 pm wrote:he bought players that we're playing well, week in week out, on top of their games at the respective clubs. can't fault the man for buying players that show the level of skill and class required.

With Carroll and Henderson he's brought potential, the problem with that is he's taken a massive gamble paying a total of £51m for two young individuals who may or may not become successful footballers and at the moment neither one can honestly claim to have lit the blue touch paper. He's spent £20m on a decent winger who this season has shown virtually no end product and he's spent £7m on a player who was a big fish in a small pond, who can only play in a midfield trio where there are two other players around him to support him, he doesn't have this at Liverpool and is struggling.

thats if those transfers were 100% his decision, but putting that argument aside for the moment when you buy potential you have got to at least give it a chance, our fans at the moment are treating henderson like they did lucas and like the newcastle fans treated jon dahl tomasson when kenny took him to newcastle at 21. when dalglish left the north east tomasson was laughed out of newcastle but he went on to win the dutch title, the dutch cup and the uefa cup with feyenoord (i mistakenly said he went to psv before, it was feyenoord), the german bundesliga title with stuttgart and then serie a, the italian cup, the italian super cup and the champions league with AC milan, he had a very good career but newcastle made their minds up about him when he was 21.

aCe' » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:16 pm wrote:

Tim LFC » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:36 pm wrote:I think if he can amend his wrong doings this Summer in the window then he should stay. Everyone knows what we lack. A top ST and a RW winger. Put those 2 players into the team and it looks a lot better. He's spent a lot, some like Carroll and Hendo I think will turn out good. Unsure on Downing but I think Adam should be sold as I don't think he's going to cut it.

You dont like Downing, and want us to bring in replacements for Carroll and Henderson. In essence what you're saying is that you want the board to give Kenny more money to spend because our 80+ million trio of signings are only good enough to warm the bench. It's absurd just thinking about the fact that a club that can't even make the top4 would have 3 players they bought recently for over 80million sitting on the bench. I don't see us spending big yet again, especially not with Kenny in charge. We'll probably get around 10-20mill plus whatever we make from player sales (which won't be much).

The time to get it right was last summer. We failed to do so, and now we have to suffer the consequences. On a side note, I agree that we need a finisher and a decent option out wide. We could also do with another good CB but again, will we have the balls to sell some of our new players for 50% or less of what we paid for them ?

Hold on! I said I was unsure on Downing, I would give him another season though personally. I also said I think Carroll and Henderson will come good. Carroll isn't even in his prime and I think he's been good recently when he has had a run of games. Henderson is still young and really is acclimating to the expectations. I don't think we need to spend 80m again at all. I would say however we wouldn't lose as many games with as Carra who is not a liability and we should be playing Coates. Hendo does need to buck up as Shelvey deserves more game time. I would also put more faith in the youth especially as we have nothing to play for except the FA Cup. I