Liverpool FC Forum

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:56 pm

Reg wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:I understand your negativity but one thing Ive learned is that the only sure thing is that there is no sure thing.
I am hoping and dreaming at the moment I admit, but weve all seen teams who have been thought to be out of sight caught and overtaken. The glorious british winter weather is on its way and IF we can capitalise, who knows?

Its not 'negativity', its scepticism, doubts or concerns all the end product of evaluating the games and tactics so far this season. Negativism - on this forum - implies someone giving it both barrels without justification.

I dare say a 'few' people on this foum have 'grave concerns' the current strategy isn't working, and you've got to bring Steve Clarke into the equation.

We've got to get out of this League attitude rut we've been trapped in for years or, mediocrity beckons. How can Ure winning the league for the 19th time NOT act as a boost to take us back to victory at all costs?

Sir Reginald
I accept that you can have positive scepticism, positive doubts and positive concerns. But "woe is us" and the doom and gloom from some isnt positive at all.
Theres a subtle difference to questioning the validity of something, rather than dismissing it as being fact. Thats whats happening with some supporters who are revelling in the struggle we seem to be having at this moment. The money spent on players is only relevant when they have achieved or not, as the case may be. At this moment in time we have a leaderless group who need firing up and cajoled into becoming a winning force. We arent miles away from that scenario. Do we need more players? I dont believe it would help if we brought in even more new faces who would then have to acclimatise to their new club and team mates. We have a group of proven players, many if not all who are internationals. They should be good enough and our current position tells me that they are, but whether they believe that is another matter. I agree that the skanks should be the motivation to win the league but we have never been a club that has the ethos of "victory at all costs" That is what slows us down, and possibly holds us back, but its also what makes us who we are.

by **metalhead** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 12:58 pm

I really do agree with some of the skeptics on here, the strategy up till now isn't working but its still early into the season and we might click sooner rather than later. Yes we have spent over 100m on transfers, so did Man City under Mancini's first year but they still ended up without CL spot, but they gradually improved and look at them now. We might not have the money as Man City, but we do have strategy and a manager who will give his best to this club to turn things around. Kenny deserves to finish off his contract, he took us from the shyte last season he deserves to get his chance, no matter how much he spent! I have complete faith in him because he has done wonders to this club and he knows this club inside out. He has done more than Houllier and Rafa put together. Like everyone says judge the team in May. Kenny/Comolli might go back in the January market and rectify things, bring in some quality we need maybe ship out some players. We are still in a rebuilding phase, it will take time! Even Rafa in his first season struggled in a weaker league than this one.

Patience will reap rewards :;):

by **Octsky** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:05 pm

Redman in wales wrote:
Octsky wrote:i think fans nowadays need to chill out a bit, it been 10 plus games and we are talking
about doom and gloom.
so what if we draw a few games ?
this is Kenny first full season right ?
last season manu drew a total of 11 games and we drew 7 games for the whole season.
guess who won the league.

i am not saying we will win the league but 4 place or higher is still possible. hv some faith.

sorry but that's a cr@p argument. League positions are not decided by draws, they're decided on points which mainly come from wins. utd won 23 games, we won 17. So what's your point?!

we're talking doom and gloom because that's what our results have been. Not being able to beat Sunderland, Norwich or Swansea at Anfield is worrying and should be talked about.

exactly, it the points that counts.
then why the F are you talking about draws, when we are just 3 points off 4th place ?

by **red till i die!!** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:30 pm

i do fear our current form and our inability to kill off teams especially at home.vorn was in the paper today blowing about how great they were and how well they had us sussed out.he marked suarez as our only player they had to contain and even though most of the team had never even been to anfield before ,they didnt fear it.

people might think that its only 11 games in but that is almost a 3rd of the season gone.
things really need to improve from here on in if we are to be serious about the cl.my worry is that can these players raise their game enough to the level required?.
our next 5 games could very well define our season.

liverpool chelsea spurs arsenal newcastle.
chelsea(a) liverpool(h) villa(H) norwich(a) man-city(A).
man-city(H) wolves(H) west-brom(A) fulham(H) manure(A).
fulham(A) newcastle(A) bolton(H) wigan(A) chelsea(H).
Qpr(H) man-city(H) stoke(A) everton(H) norwich(A).
villa(A) wigan(A) sunderland(H) man-city(A) swansea(H).

these games take us up to the week before christmas.
newcastle have a tough few games coming up and we will see how they hold up,so hopefully they wont take any more than 6-7pts from those 5 games.
chelsea are inconsistent under avb and can be beaten but id fancy them to take 10 pts in that time.
spurs have the best of it with the form they are in all these are winnable and they will take 12pts min.
arsenal's next 4 are winnable also.10-12pts for them.
for ourselves 9-11pts is realistic providing we dont slip up at home to the last promoted team:( .

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:44 pm

Here red til I die, here are Vorn's comments on Sly.

Swansea goalkeeper Michel Vorm claims Liverpool rely on Luis Suarez too much.

Vorm produced fantastic late saves to deny Liverpool on Saturday and condemn Liverpool to their fourth draw in six home matches.

Suarez has arguably been Liverpool's best player since arriving from Ajax in January for £22.8million, but Vorm feels his ability means other Liverpool players are not stepping up.

He said: "We played well and Liverpool had a hard time to keep up with us, because of our shape and tactics.

"Maybe they rely too much on Suarez. He is a player with incredible qualities. He's a world-class player - I've played a lot of times against him in Holland (when Vorm was at FC Utrecht) and he has scored a few goals against me, so it is funny to see him again.

"But maybe they rely too much on him. He is a player who can make a difference, you know that. But he didn't, and they didn't score.

"Maybe because we kept him quiet they didn't have other options. Perhaps that is unlucky for them, because in the future he will score, you can see that.

"We did our homework and we worked hard for the full 90 minutes to deny him the chances, and that is what you have to do when you arrive at Anfield."

------------------------------------------

To be fair to Vorn, he isn't wide of the mark really is he? This side seem reliant on his individual brilliance, like our recent sides over the years relied (to an extent) on Gerrard.

Suarez's team mates aren't stepping up and doing their bit, and at the moment I can't honestly see where, or from whom (perhaps Bellamy) the additional quality is going to come from.
Be it clinical in front of goal, bossing the midfield or terrorising fullbacks.

by **Reg** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 1:53 pm

metalhead wrote:Even Rafa in his first season struggled in a weaker league than this one.

Patience will reap rewards

The similarities are striking, Rafa went out and bought Morrientes, Nunez and g*d knows who else, most of whom flopped - why is it so difficult to come to Liverpool and be a success?

The frustrating thing is we're having to pay top dollar to find out these lads cant adapt. We need the academy - as Roy Evans was lucky enough to have, to provide the backbone of the team then just buy in the missing pieces.

As whiskyface has done for 15+ years out of the last 25.

The pressure on Kenny is he cant afford to have a single flop.

Did you read that last article I posted in the Academy thread about the coach feeling under pressure because of the need to turbo the lads through the ranks? No surprise!

by **Roger Red Hat** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:07 pm

After the spurs game I think I said on here that we would go on a run of unbeaten games until into the new year. Well that was 6 league games ago and we haven't lost yet have we? that to me sounds like the unbeaten run I was talking about. I stand by my statement then, I think 3rd or 4th is well achievable.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:08 pm

metalhead wrote:Even Rafa in his first season struggled in a weaker league than this one.

Patience will reap rewards

But mate, Rafa is :censored:

...

by **metalhead** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:11 pm

Reg wrote:
metalhead wrote:Even Rafa in his first season struggled in a weaker league than this one.

Patience will reap rewards

The similarities are striking, Rafa went out and bought Morrientes, Nunez and g*d knows who else, most of whom flopped - why is it so difficult to come to Liverpool and be a success?

The frustrating thing is we're having to pay top dollar to find out these lads cant adapt. We need the academy - as Roy Evans was lucky enough to have, to provide the backbone of the team then just buy in the missing pieces.

As whiskyface has done for 15+ years out of the last 25.

The pressure on Kenny is he cant afford to have a single flop.

Did you read that last article I posted in the Academy thread about the coach feeling under pressure because of the need to turbo the lads through the ranks? No surprise!

That's why our academy have been poor in years, when was the last time we produced quality players from the academy? 13 years ago?

I'll check that article Reg, but if the coaches are feeling the pressure because the owners are using the same strategy they use in baseball.

by **Reg** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:12 pm

William Hill is normally a fair bell weather of opinion how someone is doing - today's prices:

First Premier League Manager To Leave (William Hill)
Steve Kean @ 1.61
Steve Bruce @ 3.25
Roberto Martinez @ 3.75
Mick McCarthy @ 8.0
Owen Coyle @ 10.0
Alex McLeish @ 15.0
David Moyes @ 17.0
Neil Warnock @ 26.0
Martin Jol @ 26.0
Harry Redknapp @ 34.0
Alan Pardew @ 34.0
Brendan Rodgers @ 34.0
Andre Villas-Boas @ 34.0
Paul Lambert @ 34.0
Arsene Wenger @ 34.0
Roy Hodgson @ 34.0
Kenny Dalglish @ 34.0
Tony Pulis @ 41.0
Roberto Mancini @ 51.0
Sir Alex Ferguson @ 51.0
No manager to leave @ 101.0

by **metalhead** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:13 pm

maguskwt wrote:
metalhead wrote:Even Rafa in his first season struggled in a weaker league than this one.

Patience will reap rewards

But mate, Rafa is ...

Your missing the point, my point that most of the fans gave Rafa a chance in his first season with Liverpool, even before he won the Champions League. The team struggled, despite having a better first team than than the one we have (Not squad, better first team) and playing in a weaker league than this year.

Why did we support him? because he deserves it, all new managers should see through their contracts and try their best achieving their goals.

by **Kenny Kan** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:19 pm

Roger Red Hat wrote:After the spurs game I think I said on here that we would go on a run of unbeaten games until into the new year. Well that was 6 league games ago and we haven't lost yet have we? that to me sounds like the unbeaten run I was talking about. I stand by my statement then, I think 3rd or 4th is well achievable.

by **Redman in wales** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:25 pm

Octsky wrote:
Redman in wales wrote:
Octsky wrote:i think fans nowadays need to chill out a bit, it been 10 plus games and we are talking
about doom and gloom.
so what if we draw a few games ?
this is Kenny first full season right ?
last season manu drew a total of 11 games and we drew 7 games for the whole season.
guess who won the league.

i am not saying we will win the league but 4 place or higher is still possible. hv some faith.

sorry but that's a cr@p argument. League positions are not decided by draws, they're decided on points which mainly come from wins. utd won 23 games, we won 17. So what's your point?!

we're talking doom and gloom because that's what our results have been. Not being able to beat Sunderland, Norwich or Swansea at Anfield is worrying and should be talked about.

exactly, it the points that counts.
then why the F are you talking about draws, when we are just 3 points off 4th place ?

i'm talking about draws because they are dropped points.

we have dropped too many points against the likes of Swansea, Norwich etc and we should be IN the top 4 at the moment considering our run of fixtures, not 3 points behind it.

Man city and Chelsea coming up. We need two wins there otherwise it'll be more than 3 points off first, and we will rue those missed opportunitites against Norwich/Swansea because those are the games we need to be winning if we are to make top 4

by **metalhead** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 2:40 pm

Reg wrote:
metalhead wrote:Even Rafa in his first season struggled in a weaker league than this one.

Patience will reap rewards

The similarities are striking, Rafa went out and bought Morrientes, Nunez and g*d knows who else, most of whom flopped - why is it so difficult to come to Liverpool and be a success?

The frustrating thing is we're having to pay top dollar to find out these lads cant adapt. We need the academy - as Roy Evans was lucky enough to have, to provide the backbone of the team then just buy in the missing pieces.

As whiskyface has done for 15+ years out of the last 25.

The pressure on Kenny is he cant afford to have a single flop.

Did you read that last article I posted in the Academy thread about the coach feeling under pressure because of the need to turbo the lads through the ranks? No surprise!

Again mate

.. your point in the bold made me think of Barcelona and their academy. Barcelona in the early 2000s struggled in La Liga and the champions league, they didn't have much of players coming out of their youth except for Xavi and Puyol then later Valdez, Reina, Iniesta etc... They shifted their whole strategy to produce quality players from their academy and fill out the missing pieces with players like David Villa and Dani Alves. I didn't state Messi because Messi was in the Barca academy when he was 15 years of age. Barca are dominating world of football because their core players and majority of their players comes out of their own youth system. They only spend money when they need to, unlike Real Madrid who are struggling against them because they spend shed load of money on super star players. I think Benitez was trying to shape the academy similar to Barca's, I don't know about it now but the new owners seem to stress the importance of younger players coming out of our academy and that's why the pressure is on the coaches to bring them up as fast as they can.

by **Reg** » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:56 pm

Exactly. Barca and ManU are the best examples of in-house bred success. Saved them tens and tens of millions but whats remarkable is these lads were good enough to take them to the top of world football - they weren't just 'good', they were superb. (Barca lads that is, the Mancs were all sh'ite :laugh:

)

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