Liverpool FC Forum

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:21 am

ethanr wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
The Good Yank wrote:All this talk that "we spent poorly" needs to be put in some perspective. From a "quick fix" perspective there may be some sort of decent point there. But we haven't spent for a quick fix. We have spent for the long haul. PATIENCE.

Its a sly way of saying KK hasnt got a clue and fits perfectly with the view that Carroll is a waste of money.
To be even questioning whether we will come 4th at this point of the season is ridiculous. Lets see where we are at christmas before we start the negative moaning

Adam has been trying to do too much and that is costly at times. However there are actually a lot of people who think Adam's done really well. He's gotten 3 assists and a goal so far this season as far as I'm aware, and some are really happy with him. I'm one that really backed him from the start, but I'm willing to admit he's been very inconsistent and way too wasteful at times.

Adam has played 7 times and got a goal and 3 assists
Lucas has been here since 2007, had 176 appearances and scored 6 times
Just a thought

by **Ola Mr Benitez** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 11:25 am

I think Adam had done really well. He has been involved in the majority of the goals we have scored.

We have nearly half a team of new players yet people think we are just going to start playing perfectly from day 1 and there will be no problems otherwise our manager is obviously clueless and has wasted 100 million. What a crock of $h|t.

Get real people, It easy to improve a team when you are only adding 1 player every transfer window but we have added Carroll, Suarez, Adam, Downing, Henderson as well as playing Kelly in nearly every game as Johnson has had a bad run of injuries. Does anyone really beleive everything is going to be great staright away?

We have had some games where things have really clicked, those games will happen more and more as the seaon progresses AND we have just got back Stevie. and all this after a REALLY bad start where we are only 6 points behinfd the leaders and sitting WAY down the league in 5th spot.

You couldnt make it up.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 1:13 pm

aCe' wrote:
The Good Yank wrote:All this talk that "we spent poorly" needs to be put in some perspective. From a "quick fix" perspective there may be some sort of decent point there. But we haven't spent for a quick fix. We have spent for the long haul. PATIENCE.

This whole notion of us \spending for the future\ has been thrown around quite a bit since we went out and bought all the new players and I dont quite get it. For me, when an owner gives the manager 100+ mill to spend in new players hes not doing that to build for the future or boost the academy. Its quite simple, you either buy players who are ready now or you dont. Some of the bigger clubs who have strong and established starting 11 (ManUtd, Chelsea and ManCity) can afford to spend 10+million on kids who sit on the bench and come on every now and then in hope of them becoming top players one day but besides that all the players they bring in are expected to be good enough to start and impress week in week out.

As things stood before the summer (and even before January to be honest), our starting 11 wasnt good enough to comprehensively achieve that 4th spot consistently. Our best player (Gerrard) is nearing the end of his career and if we dont start getting closer to our competition starting this season ( to enable to bring in more money through CL and better players) then the gap will only grow bigger.

Regardless, if some of the players are brought for the long term as you suggest, then Kenny should have no problems benching them if they are not performing at a high level today. The whole sticking by players in the starting 11 until they eventually improve despite the results thing is nonsense imo but it seems to be the way we're going about things.

It's not non-sense... Whiskey nose often does this to great effect... Andy Cole, Darren Fletcher, Anderson, Nani etc.

by **The Good Yank** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:15 pm

aCe do you not think we've closed the gap at all? And do you also think that the buys of Carroll and Henderson (21 &20 years old) were not made with the long term view? As far as Kenny playing all of the new signings due to pressure of prictetags (which it seems as where your arguement is heading), I say look at the fact that both Carroll and Henderson have started games on the bench. It will occur even more for Henderson with Gerrard coming back.

Until deadline day Carroll was one of 3 options we had to play up front, and with the versatility of Kuyt and Suarez, it was a natural decision for Carroll to get a large chunk of time on the pitch up top. With Bellamy now back and integrated into the team, Carroll will be used or subbed when needed.

by **maguskwt** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 2:35 pm

We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

by **The Good Yank** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 3:50 pm

maguskwt wrote:We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

Yes we may have overpaid. In Rubbles.

by **Thommo's perm** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 6:44 pm

maguskwt wrote:We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

Not ar'sed if we paid 50 mil for him
We can afford it so why moan?

by **aCe'** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:24 pm

maguskwt wrote:
aCe' wrote:
The Good Yank wrote:All this talk that "we spent poorly" needs to be put in some perspective. From a "quick fix" perspective there may be some sort of decent point there. But we haven't spent for a quick fix. We have spent for the long haul. PATIENCE.

This whole notion of us \spending for the future\ has been thrown around quite a bit since we went out and bought all the new players and I dont quite get it. For me, when an owner gives the manager 100+ mill to spend in new players hes not doing that to build for the future or boost the academy. Its quite simple, you either buy players who are ready now or you dont. Some of the bigger clubs who have strong and established starting 11 (ManUtd, Chelsea and ManCity) can afford to spend 10+million on kids who sit on the bench and come on every now and then in hope of them becoming top players one day but besides that all the players they bring in are expected to be good enough to start and impress week in week out.

As things stood before the summer (and even before January to be honest), our starting 11 wasnt good enough to comprehensively achieve that 4th spot consistently. Our best player (Gerrard) is nearing the end of his career and if we dont start getting closer to our competition starting this season ( to enable to bring in more money through CL and better players) then the gap will only grow bigger.

Regardless, if some of the players are brought for the long term as you suggest, then Kenny should have no problems benching them if they are not performing at a high level today. The whole sticking by players in the starting 11 until they eventually improve despite the results thing is nonsense imo but it seems to be the way we're going about things.

It's not non-sense... Whiskey nose often does this to great effect... Andy Cole, Darren Fletcher, Anderson, Nani etc.

Not sure whether you're agreeing here or disagreeing to be honest.
Andy Cole did well for United from the get go (12 goals in 18 games his first season) while Anderson is only starting to get regular first team football this season after having to prove over the past 4 years that he is worth his place in the side. Nani is somewhere in between but I wouldnt say he was a regular at the beginning despite showing great potential (16, 7, and 19 starts in the league his first 3 seasons).

As for Fletcher, I wouldnt say his game changed much since he started playing for them and what he offers today is pretty much the same as what he offered when he first came into the scene.Regardless, he too was somewhat eased into the first team.

Its actually funny that you would bring Ferguson up as an example of someone who sticks young talent in and persists with them despite under-performing, its quite the opposite the way I see it.

ManUtd are a good example of a side who can afford to pay big money for younger players and slowly bring them into the side as they begin to prove their worth. Just look at some of the players you brought up, also add the likes of Ronaldo, Welbeck, Smalling..etc to the list.

by **aCe'** » Tue Oct 11, 2011 8:44 pm

The Good Yank wrote:aCe do you not think we've closed the gap at all? And do you also think that the buys of Carroll and Henderson (21 &20 years old) were not made with the long term view? As far as Kenny playing all of the new signings due to pressure of prictetags (which it seems as where your arguement is heading), I say look at the fact that both Carroll and Henderson have started games on the bench. It will occur even more for Henderson with Gerrard coming back.

Until deadline day Carroll was one of 3 options we had to play up front, and with the versatility of Kuyt and Suarez, it was a natural decision for Carroll to get a large chunk of time on the pitch up top. With Bellamy now back and integrated into the team, Carroll will be used or subbed when needed.

Its a bit too early to judge on whether we improved enough to close the gap or not but from what I've seen so far, its certainly not implausible to suggest that both Manchester clubs and even Chelsea have improved from last year more than we did.

On the issue of players being benched, Henderson has started all but 1 game in the league and even then he was brought on as a substitute. We sold one of our best players (Meireles) to accommodate him and in more than one occasion this season he was the preferred starting choice ahead of others who perhaps deserved the start ahead of him. Carroll is a player I like and I've gotten behind the kid even when he was being criticized for not performing. My main criticism when it comes to Carroll is with the way hes being asked to play and not with his contribution. Its a similar situation to that facing Torres at Chelsea. If the side isnt setup to play to his strengths, he'll struggle to get into games and Boas seems to be addressing the issue. Kenny in the last couple of games has also started to address the issue by changing Downings game a little and adjusting the shape of the side which is promising but yet again, surely beforing buying the player he should have known that we'd be facing such problems ?

On the long term view thing, theres no doubt that you get more by signing young players at least in financial terms, but that doesnt mean that the quality of the starting 11 in the short term should be jeopardized because of that. We paid big money for those young players and that money isnt just for the potential that they provide. Theres a time, a place, and a cost for developing young talent but sticking with them in vital games despite poor performances isnt the way to go imo.

Hopefully you're right about Kenny benching players who arent performing from now on but I cant see it happening to be honest. I can see Adam, Henderson and Carroll all starting most games for us this season and hopefully we'll still make the top4 and perhaps add a few quality players next season and maybe even see marked improvements from all our younger players.

by **dundreamin** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:02 am

If we were even discussing things like this 12 months ago,I would of thought I had died and gone to heaven. Amazing how the last year has gone. Time to thank NESV, and of course the king too.YNWA

by **Igor Zidane** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:53 pm

Think were doing alright up to now . We are in the mix and i fully expect us to be in the mix come the end of the season . Some players are taking longer to settle than others but again i fully expect all our players to be contributing 100% by chrimbo and then we can charrrrrrrrgggggggeeeeee

by **maguskwt** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 1:43 am

Thommo's perm wrote:
maguskwt wrote:We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

Not ar'sed if we paid 50 mil for him
We can afford it so why moan?

because we can get better talent for 35 million who can contribute alot more to the team than Andy right now? :Oo:

by **Thommo's perm** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 10:55 pm

maguskwt wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
maguskwt wrote:We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

Not ar'sed if we paid 50 mil for him
We can afford it so why moan?

because we can get better talent for 35 million who can contribute alot more to the team than Andy right now?

Name someone
Then give me the evidence they would do better
Cheers

:eyebrow

by **maguskwt** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 1:23 am

Thommo's perm wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
maguskwt wrote:We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

Not ar'sed if we paid 50 mil for him
We can afford it so why moan?

because we can get better talent for 35 million who can contribute alot more to the team than Andy right now?

Name someone
Then give me the evidence they would do better
Cheers

old tricks

feel free to live in denial... :rasp

by **Thommo's perm** » Fri Oct 14, 2011 7:45 am

maguskwt wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
maguskwt wrote:
Thommo's perm wrote:
maguskwt wrote:We shouldn't dismiss Carroll just yet... but very few will argue against the fact that we have overpaid for his talents...

Not ar'sed if we paid 50 mil for him
We can afford it so why moan?

because we can get better talent for 35 million who can contribute alot more to the team than Andy right now?

Name someone
Then give me the evidence they would do better
Cheers

old tricks

feel free to live in denial...

The great leveller "put up or shut up"

On a serious note, this is what many conversations I have been involved in consist of:
"We could have got better"
"Like who?"
"Anyone"
"Like who?"
"I dont know, but they would have been better"
"Oh. Ok"
Pretty pointless, no?
:;):

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