Liverpool FC Forum

by **Big Niall** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:36 pm

stmichael wrote:
Big Niall wrote:He showed great tactical awareness throughout that campaign - absolutely bollloxed up the final though (dropped Hamann for Kewell FFS and only pure luck, an injury to Kewell from memory forced him to bring on the mighty german).

absolute myth. smicer came on for kewell. hamann came on for finnan at half time as finnan was injured.

That's my point. The insane decision to drop hamann was only changed at half time due to injury.

by **Ben Patrick** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:01 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Bob, let's forget about about Rafa for a min... just answer this question...

Who is more pathetic? The people who are rejoicing that an ex-liverpool manager is doing well, or the people who are rejoicing the failings of an ex-liverpool manager? Especially if that ex-liverpool manager was the one who brought back to us European glory. Who lacks more class and decorum?

Another strange post, mate...'let's forget about Rafa for a minute' followed by 'which view on Rafa is more pathetic?'

If you'd like an honest answer, I'm equally fed up with both sides. I'm fed up with those who were rejoicing in the Spurs victory the other night because it seems petty and feels like a wind-up attempt, to be perfectly honest.

But, EQUALLY, I was fed up with those who were crowing loudly when Inter was 4-0 up a fortnight ago (although they quieted down rather quickly, as it turns out). Why? Because the comments weren't just 'hey, nice one Rafa' or 'made up for the man' kind of fare (which I would certainly go along with). No, instead we got a lot of the 'I told you so' attitude along with it, as if charging out to a 4-0 lead was definitive proof that Rafa was the The Man and we were absolute ingrates for parting company with him.

And that's where I have a problem, which I raised at the time. See, if Rafa truly was The Man he was being made out to be, why didn't we see Liverpool handing Spurs a caning more often during his tenure? If he was so peerless a tactician in the Champions League why did we fail to get out of one of the weakest groups in the competition last year? The comments struck me as distinctly lacking in perspective, as if we'd binned Rafa when he was at the absolute top of his game with us and were now seeing the folly of our ways. Unfortunately, from my perspective, Rafa's powers were on the wane with us at the end and it was time for him to go. Someone asked after Inter put the 4th one in that night to remind everyone why we got rid of Rafa as if it were a complete mystery. The answer, IMO, is that Rafa unfortunately helped get rid of himself by not being The Man very much at all last year. He gave the board an opening to part company by presiding over some very lacklustre football--a fact that seems too quickly forgotten by some who would look to rejoice when Inter do well. It's about balance, mate--something that's been all too rare around here for too long.

Brilliant post Bob.

by **jacdaniel** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:24 pm

Big Niall wrote:
stmichael wrote:
Big Niall wrote:He showed great tactical awareness throughout that campaign - absolutely bollloxed up the final though (dropped Hamann for Kewell FFS and only pure luck, an injury to Kewell from memory forced him to bring on the mighty german).

absolute myth. smicer came on for kewell. hamann came on for finnan at half time as finnan was injured.

That's my point. The insane decision to drop hamann was only changed at half time due to injury.

people beat the man with a stick for being "Too negative".
He tried to do something positive by playing Kewell. It backfired.

He changed it around. His tactical brilliance was there for all the see that night. A number of our players changed positions, formations etc to win that game.

Winning the Champions League with players like Traore, Biscan, Smicer, Pongolle, Mellor, Baros, Cisse and Le Tallec must rank alongside one of the greatest football achievements of all time.

by **maguskwt** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:54 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
maguskwt wrote:Bob, let's forget about about Rafa for a min... just answer this question...

Who is more pathetic? The people who are rejoicing that an ex-liverpool manager is doing well, or the people who are rejoicing the failings of an ex-liverpool manager? Especially if that ex-liverpool manager was the one who brought back to us European glory. Who lacks more class and decorum?

Another strange post, mate...'let's forget about Rafa for a minute' followed by 'which view on Rafa is more pathetic?'

If you'd like an honest answer, I'm equally fed up with both sides. I'm fed up with those who were rejoicing in the Spurs victory the other night because it seems petty and feels like a wind-up attempt, to be perfectly honest.

But, EQUALLY, I was fed up with those who were crowing loudly when Inter was 4-0 up a fortnight ago (although they quieted down rather quickly, as it turns out). Why? Because the comments weren't just 'hey, nice one Rafa' or 'made up for the man' kind of fare (which I would certainly go along with). No, instead we got a lot of the 'I told you so' attitude along with it, as if charging out to a 4-0 lead was definitive proof that Rafa was the The Man and we were absolute ingrates for parting company with him.

And that's where I have a problem, which I raised at the time. See, if Rafa truly was The Man he was being made out to be, why didn't we see Liverpool handing Spurs a caning more often during his tenure? If he was so peerless a tactician in the Champions League why did we fail to get out of one of the weakest groups in the competition last year? The comments struck me as distinctly lacking in perspective, as if we'd binned Rafa when he was at the absolute top of his game with us and were now seeing the folly of our ways. Unfortunately, from my perspective, Rafa's powers were on the wane with us at the end and it was time for him to go. Someone asked after Inter put the 4th one in that night to remind everyone why we got rid of Rafa as if it were a complete mystery. The answer, IMO, is that Rafa unfortunately helped get rid of himself by not being The Man very much at all last year. He gave the board an opening to part company by presiding over some very lacklustre football--a fact that seems too quickly forgotten by some who would look to rejoice when Inter do well. It's about balance, mate--something that's been all too rare around here for too long.

Bob if every poster acted like you there will be less of these ridiculous flame wars. I agree totally with you that it's about balance and how much of a rare commodity it is on this forum.

But I think you misunderstand my question. What I meant was, let's forget for one minute that this argument was about Rafa, and let's just look at him as an ex-liverpool manager, ANY of our ex-managers (well maybe except for Sounness). Is it right for people to be rejoicing about the failings of a former liverpool manager of ours? I thought Houllier deserved to go but I wouldn't rejoice at his failings in his next assignments. TBH I wouldn't give a feck. It is extremely childish and petty. And these are the same people who are accusing other posters of lacking respect and class over Roy. I don't think that's right at all. Non of our former managers deserves this kind of treatment, especially not one who has made us into one of Europe's power houses again and also won us our 5th CL. So now, Mick says that he did it not directly against Rafa but to kind of get back at other posters.

To Mick: Isn't that considered 'putting the boot in' which you often accused other people of doing? Don't you think we need less of these kinds of behaviour?

I will tell you this I AM a pro-Rafa and honestly, hand to my heart, I didn't even know Inter beat Spurs 4-3! I didn't even know Inter was leading 4-0. I was too busy being p1ssed off with Roy for losing against Blackpool and Everton. Why? it's simple, Inter is not Liverpool. What concerns me more is Liverpool. So yeah I admit I don't know what these certain pro-rafa's did to infuriate the others and I can't really speak for them. I understand from your post Bob, that that is how you felt. So, fair enough.

But let me tell you this, I may be biased, but I have to say that these feelings and opinions of the pro-Rafa's come with perfectly good reasons.

Firstly, for me, I totally believed that when Rafa was sacked, it was a wrong decision. I said it back then that it will be like Newcastle sacking Sir Bobby Robson. I was told "we are not Newcastle FFS". I wasn't too impressed by the appointment of Roy as well for his track record. And true enough, until before we beat Blackburn, there was NOTHING whatsoever to disprove that my theory was wrong. We are TRUELY hopeless, football wise. Roy's tactics, mainly the sitting back defence was totally ridiculous.

Secondly, Roy hasn't helped himself with his press conferences. He took pot shots at the supporters who were protesting for the club, he declared himself one of the best managers in england, he ridiculed Rijkaard and he took pot shots at Rafa, all of which were unprovoked.

People therefore has the right to be disenchanted with him. So when those who are upset voiced their discontent and opinions, there are posters like Dawson, coming out and lambasting alot of posters with numerous insults. People were accused of not getting behind the manager. People made fun of with digs like "Greatest fans on earth, yeah right". People are told they are a disgrace. What's more, apparently, we are told that the anti-Roy's will be happy if we lost to Chelsea. How ridiculous is that??? Aren't those accusations like winding up the other group?

And It will be well and good if these accusers treated Rafa last season with the same dignity they are saying the other group lacked. The reality was that these are the same posters who lambasted Rafa. And I remember there were alot of posters who were carded and banned. I now wonder are they holding a grudge? This kind of hypocricy and winding up is what really pisses me off.

Lastly, let me tell you that there are some of us who do believe that Rafa is a far better manager than Roy and with a good reason as well. He DID put us back on the map in Europe. And we WERE very successful in Europe for 5 years. And we DID break the record point total in the league two times and we DID challenge for the title. You will say that Rafa's powers are on the wane because of the previous season's results but let me remind you that Rafa WAS working under twit and tw@t and we all know that it was a sell to buy policy for Rafa's last 2 seasons. Fair enough, Rafa probably deserved the sack because his job is to secure 4th place and he failed in that. But it is also not too unreasonable to believe that a good manager doesn't become bad after just one bad season. I don't wanna go into those arguments anymore but my personal believe is that Rafa would have done alot better than Roy if he stayed on, and if you looked at it objectively, it is not too unreasonable to believe that.

by **bigmick** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:29 pm

Good post that Magus.

Just out of interest, if it's out of order to laugh at an ex Liverpool manager, why is it OK to hound and belittle the current one?

by **maguskwt** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 3:47 pm

bigmick wrote:Good post that Magus.

Just out of interest, if it's out of order to laugh at an ex Liverpool manager, why is it OK to hound and belittle the current one?

It is not Mick, but what is considered hounding and belittling? The difficulty in differentiating unwarranted hounding and belittling and warranted criticism is made worse because with the current manager it involves heat of the moment.

I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I am always :censored:

off with Roy up until our performance against Blackburn. And if I'm :censored:

off with him, I will be critical of him in my posts, is that considered hounding? It doesn't help matters that Roy, claiming to be one of the best in the country and yet he doesn't got a clue or doesn't give a sh1t how to handle the press.

I do admit that some posters seem to highlight every little wrong move that he does, which may seem to appear like nitpicking, but then I honestly am not in a position to judge them because they are far closer to the city, the club, and know the ins and outs more than I am.

In principal though I will not call Roy, the owl or Woy, even though I do admit the reference to the owl is somewhat amusing because he does look like an owl and I also find the Twee Twoo Twee Twoo joke funny...

by **worcester_red** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:01 pm

supersub wrote:
Big Niall wrote:[I have to disagree about the iconic status thing. He won the biggest trophey in club football in one of the most memorable finals in the history of the competition.

His tactical nous helped us get through some tough teams that year, former finalists and semi finalists, and not just that year either. Ok during his time we didn't have as much success in the league as we did in Europe but at least we were there mixing it up with the top teams midweek to the point where we were one of the most feared teams in Europe.

I don't know about you Mick but I treasure a lot of memories from those years, beating Barca in the Camp Nou, thrashing Real, knocking out Chelsea on more than 1 occasion when they were virtually buying their way to silverware. To me he will always be an icon and you know damn well there are plenty of other supporters that feel the same way even if you don't.

As for the celebrating after last night I think it's a bit of a disgrace tbh. I suppose it just goes to show how right we were all along this season that you felt the need to let loose 1 evening as youve been hiding under a owl shaped rock for the last few months.

de de de de de de de de

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v....ndex=48

He showed great tactical awareness throughout that campaign - absolutely bollloxed up the final though (dropped Hamann for Kewell FFS and only pure luck, an injury to Kewell from memory forced him to bring on the mighty german).

Cups are great, but the league is how a manager should be judged.

I think your memory is suffering, Hamman did not replace the injured Kewell.......but why let real facts get in the way of pure hatred and bitterness :laugh:

[/quote]
but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.
Rafa did many things right but he is no icon of LFC, not even close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan etc in my book.

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:20 pm

maguskwt wrote:Bob if every poster acted like you there will be less of these ridiculous flame wars. I agree totally with you that it's about balance and how much of a rare commodity it is on this forum.

But I think you misunderstand my question. What I meant was, let's forget for one minute that this argument was about Rafa, and let's just look at him as an ex-liverpool manager, ANY of our ex-managers (well maybe except for Sounness). Is it right for people to be rejoicing about the failings of a former liverpool manager of ours? I thought Houllier deserved to go but I wouldn't rejoice at his failings in his next assignments. TBH I wouldn't give a feck. It is extremely childish and petty. And these are the same people who are accusing other posters of lacking respect and class over Roy. I don't think that's right at all. Non of our former managers deserves this kind of treatment, especially not one who has made us into one of Europe's power houses again and also won us our 5th CL. So now, Mick says that he did it not directly against Rafa but to kind of get back at other posters.

To Mick: Isn't that considered 'putting the boot in' which you often accused other people of doing? Don't you think we need less of these kinds of behaviour?

I will tell you this I AM a pro-Rafa and honestly, hand to my heart, I didn't even know Inter beat Spurs 4-3! I didn't even know Inter was leading 4-0. I was too busy being p1ssed off with Roy for losing against Blackpool and Everton. Why? it's simple, Inter is not Liverpool. What concerns me more is Liverpool. So yeah I admit I don't know what these certain pro-rafa's did to infuriate the others and I can't really speak for them. I understand from your post Bob, that that is how you felt. So, fair enough.

But let me tell you this, I may be biased, but I have to say that these feelings and opinions of the pro-Rafa's come with perfectly good reasons.

Firstly, for me, I totally believed that when Rafa was sacked, it was a wrong decision. I said it back then that it will be like Newcastle sacking Sir Bobby Robson. I was told "we are not Newcastle FFS". I wasn't too impressed by the appointment of Roy as well for his track record. And true enough, until before we beat Blackburn, there was NOTHING whatsoever to disprove that my theory was wrong. We are TRUELY hopeless, football wise. Roy's tactics, mainly the sitting back defence was totally ridiculous.

Secondly, Roy hasn't helped himself with his press conferences. He took pot shots at the supporters who were protesting for the club, he declared himself one of the best managers in england, he ridiculed Rijkaard and he took pot shots at Rafa, all of which were unprovoked.

People therefore has the right to be disenchanted with him. So when those who are upset voiced their discontent and opinions, there are posters like Dawson, coming out and lambasting alot of posters with numerous insults. People were accused of not getting behind the manager. People made fun of with digs like "Greatest fans on earth, yeah right". People are told they are a disgrace. What's more, apparently, we are told that the anti-Roy's will be happy if we lost to Chelsea. How ridiculous is that??? Aren't those accusations like winding up the other group?

And It will be well and good if these accusers treated Rafa last season with the same dignity they are saying the other group lacked. The reality was that these are the same posters who lambasted Rafa. And I remember there were alot of posters who were carded and banned. I now wonder are they holding a grudge? This kind of hypocricy and winding up is what really pisses me off.

Lastly, let me tell you that there are some of us who do believe that Rafa is a far better manager than Roy and with a good reason as well. He DID put us back on the map in Europe. And we WERE very successful in Europe for 5 years. And we DID break the record point total in the league two times and we DID challenge for the title. You will say that Rafa's powers are on the wane because of the previous season's results but let me remind you that Rafa WAS working under twit and tw@t and we all know that it was a sell to buy policy for Rafa's last 2 seasons. Fair enough, Rafa probably deserved the sack because his job is to secure 4th place and he failed in that. But it is also not too unreasonable to believe that a good manager doesn't become bad after just one bad season. I don't wanna go into those arguments anymore but my personal believe is that Rafa would have done alot better than Roy if he stayed on, and if you looked at it objectively, it is not too unreasonable to believe that.

Fair enough, mate. You've highlighted the crux of any sensible debate over Rafa's last season: was it a one-off bad season that he should have been given a chance to improve upon or was it evidence of a good manager on the wane, who's time at the club was up? There are, of course, no shortage of views on this question, which means that there is no definitive and clear cut answer. Where we tend to get into bother is when people--from either direction--address the question as though it has a clear and obvious answer and, further, that anyone who doesn't accept the clear and obvious answer as the truth is some sort of numpty worthy of scorn. There are no absolutes...especially when it comes to discussing Rafa.

Oh, and on the question of dignity, I have a better sense of where you're coming from and I do agree: a former Liverpool manager is worthy of more respect than Rafa sometimes gets from some on here. That's part of the vaunted Liverpool Way after all. Equally, however, I think the current manager is worthy of more respect than he's sometimes been getting on here for the exact same reason: Liverpool supporters are supposed to be a different breed.

Now, I've read a few defenses mounted against the Roy p!ss-takes that argue that respect needs to be earned and that Roy is fair game because he hasn't earned that respect. I disagree in the sense that his role within the club--the institution of manager--should afford him a certain level of respect from the outset and should guard against the 'O Rly?' type of silliness. I've also heard it said that Liverpool fans, being knowledgeable about the game and not ones to suffer fools gladly (but who does, I ask?), have the right to voice their concerns about Roy. Well of course they do! No one's suggesting for a second that we should all sit here and pretend that things are going well and that Roy's really got to grips with the job: they aren't and he hasn't. IMO, though, there's a big difference between voicing dissatisfaction (even nasty outbursts in the heat of the moment) and taking the p!ss in such a sustained fashion. What I'd find refreshing is if the p!ss-takes and wind-ups could stop: whether they're focused on our current manager or our former one. There are plenty of good discussions we could be having about both men if the handbags weren't flying.

by **supersub** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:22 pm

worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.
Rafa did many things right but he is no icon of LFC, not even close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan etc in my book.

The Hamann change wasn't a forced change...he took Finnan off and brought Didi on at half time....pushing Gerrard further up the field and thus allowing him more freedom to get at Milan....

I will admit Crouch should have been introduced earlier in the Athens final...

Rafa deserves his place in the hall of fame

by **Bad Bob** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:28 pm

worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.

You know, one of the things that makes me laugh most when I read stuff like this (which crops up way more than you'd imagine around here) is the failure to account for the big picture. 'The critical Hamann switch was forced on him,' 'we got lucky that Milan switched off,' 'Rafa dropped a bollo.ck by leaving Crouch on the bench' etc. etc. gets trotted out like we were whisked through a worm hole into two Champions League finals and poor, bumbling Benitez found himself out of his depth. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that, in each case, we had to play a fair few games to make it to these finals, beating a few good teams along the way. Either Rafa's got a horseshoe the size of the Arc de Triomphe up his backside or he's by and large a bl.oody good tactician when it comes to the cut and thrust of European cup football.

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:32 pm

Bad Bob wrote:
worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.

You know, one of the things that makes me laugh most when I read stuff like this (which crops up way more than you'd imagine around here) is the failure to account for the big picture. 'The critical Hamann switch was forced on him,' 'we got lucky that Milan switched off,' 'Rafa dropped a bollo.ck by leaving Crouch on the bench' etc. etc. gets trotted out like we were whisked through a worm hole into two Champions League finals and poor, bumbling Benitez found himself out of his depth. It would be nice if people could acknowledge that, in each case, we had to play a fair few games to make it to these finals, beating a few good teams along the way. Either Rafa's got a horseshoe the size of the Arc de Triomphe up his backside or he's by and large a bl.oody good tactician when it comes to the cut and thrust of European cup football.

The year is 2007 and little bluenose Duncan is talking to his bluenose Dad.

SON “Dad, my mates in school told me that Liverpool won the European Cup for the 5th time in 2005 – are they right dad?

DAD “Yes SON , it’s true, but they were dead lucky SON , all the way through the tournament”

SON “Why dad?”

DAD “Well in the group stages …..”

SON “What dad, did they have a team from Azerbaijan, Israel, and Ireland in their group?”

DAD “Well no, they had Monaco, Deportivo la Coruna, and Olympiakos”

SON “Well they still sound like 3 easy teams to me dad”

DAD “Actually Monaco reached the final the year before, Olympiakos had won their league 7 times out of the previous 8 seaSON s, and Deportivo finished above the galacticos of Real Madrid in their league”.

SON “Jeez dad, that sounds like quite a difficult group then”.

DAD “yeh I suppose your right SON , but they were still lucky – it took a mishit shot by Gerrard against Olympiakos to get through”.

SON “oh is that the goal were your hero Andy Gray goes berserk shouting “you beauty, you beauty, what a hit SON , what a hit!!!!”

DAD “yes SON it is”

SON “oh ok. Well what happened in the last 16 dad, who did they draw?”

DAD “Bayer Leverkusen”

SON “Bayer who?”

DAD “Exactly SON , but they had beaten Real Madrid 3-0 at home, and won their group that included Dinamo Kiev and Roma too.”

SON “bloody hell dad, they sound good”.

DAD “yes, I suppose you’re right SON ”

SON “so did they win on away goals or something”

DAD ”errrrr, no, they won both legs 3-1 each”

SON “oh – well who next then dad”

DAD “Juventus”

SON “How the f#ck did they get past them Dad?”

DAD “Well they did – they won 2-1 at home, and cruised to a 0-0 away draw without Juve having hardly any chances”.

SON “were Juve sh#t at that time – had all their decent players gone or something?”

DAD “well actually they still had players like Del Piero, Nedved, Ibrahimovic, Thuram, and Buffon in the side. And they won Serie A a few weeks later.”

SON “wow, they beat the Italian champions elect – which :censored:

easy team did they get in the semi then?”

DAD “Chelsea”

SON “Chelsea – for f#cks sake – what a :censored:

easy draw – they’ve won nothing, Everton have won more than them”.

DAD “well that seaSON they won the Premiership and League Cup but the Red :censored:

didn’t let them score in 180 minutes of football”

SON “Jesus Christ – so Liverpool beat the English Champions elect too”

DAD “yes SON , they bloody well did”.

SON “so after all that I suppose all the good teams had been knocked out”

DAD “not quite SON , AC Milan awaited them in the final”

SON “no way – aren’t they the 2nd most successful team in the competition’s history”.

DAD “yes SON they are”

SON “so were Liverpool lucky because Milan had all their good players out with injuries”

DAD “no – they had Shevchenko, Crespo, Maldini, Nesta, Cafu, Kaka, Stam, Dida, Gattuso, Pirlo, and Seedorf”.

SON “your ‘avin a laff”

DAD “it gets worse SON , Milan were cruising 3-0 up at half-time”.

SON “what happened, did they have 3 men sent off in the second half – how did Liverpool get back into the game?”

DAD “no, Milan had no men sent off, the Red :censored:

scored 3 goals in 6 minutes”

SON “against the best defence in Europe”

DAD “yes!!!, against the best defence in Europe”

SON “so what happened next - extra time?”

DAD “yes SON , and Dudek made the luckiest save ever to stop a Shevchenko shot from a yard”

SON “why was it lucky dad – did it hit him on the :censored:

, nose, shoulder or something”

DAD “no SON , his hand”

SON “well aren’t goalies meant to save shots with their hands”

DAD “yeah but that’s besides the point”

SON “then what”

DAD “penalties!”

SON “English teams are :censored:

at penalties”

DAD “not this f#ckin time they weren’t – they only missed one. And that’s how Liverpool became the luckiest team to win the European Cup”.

SON “but I bet when they brought the cup home there was hardly anyone to watch as all Liverpool fans live anywhere but Liverpool you say. How many was there, 5,,000 or so?”

DAD “1 million people lined the streets”.

SON ”so let’s get this straight dad – Liverpool had 3 good teams in their group, they then knocked out a team who had beaten Real Madrid 3-0, they then knocked out the future Serie A champions, then knocked out the future Premiership champions, before coming back from 3-0 down to beat the 2nd most successful club in Europe. And then the whole population of Liverpool came out to welcome them home!!!!

DAD “that about sums it up SON ”

SON “dad?”

DAD “yes SON ”

SON “can I have a Liverpool shirt for my birthday next week, and can you stop calling me Duncan – I’m Stevie from now on”

by **dawson99** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:37 pm

supersub wrote:
worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.
Rafa did many things right but he is no icon of LFC, not even close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan etc in my book.

The Hamann change wasn't a forced change...he took Finnan off and brought Didi on at half time....pushing Gerrard further up the field and thus allowing him more freedom to get at Milan....

I will admit Crouch should have been introduced earlier in the Athens final...

Rafa deserves his place in the hall of fame

yeah he does, definately, but it also needs to be known he aint here anymore, so he doesnt need to be in all peoples sigs and pics.. the guys a legend, but that was then

by **Benny The Noon** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:39 pm

dawson99 wrote:
supersub wrote:
worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.
Rafa did many things right but he is no icon of LFC, not even close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan etc in my book.

The Hamann change wasn't a forced change...he took Finnan off and brought Didi on at half time....pushing Gerrard further up the field and thus allowing him more freedom to get at Milan....

I will admit Crouch should have been introduced earlier in the Athens final...

Rafa deserves his place in the hall of fame

yeah he does, definately, but it also needs to be known he aint here anymore, so he doesnt need to be in all peoples sigs and pics.. the guys a legend, but that was then

What about if people have pics or statements of Fagan or Bob or Shanks or Evans or GH or Kenny or Keegan or Thommo ? Should they be gone as well .

by **maguskwt** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:40 pm

supersub wrote:
worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.
Rafa did many things right but he is no icon of LFC, not even close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan etc in my book.

The Hamann change wasn't a forced change...he took Finnan off and brought Didi on at half time....pushing Gerrard further up the field and thus allowing him more freedom to get at Milan....

I will admit Crouch should have been introduced earlier in the Athens final...

Rafa deserves his place in the hall of fame

Agreed SS... It is fair to say that he is not close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan and Daglish... but in his own right Rafa was an icon... Liverpool FC is about winning the league and the CL and he achieved one half of it. The FA Cup is also not a small deal to english clubs and he also won that. If he had won the league, he would have achieved something which no other liverpool manager has done before...

by **dawson99** » Thu Nov 04, 2010 4:41 pm

Benny The Noon wrote:
dawson99 wrote:
supersub wrote:
worcester_red wrote:but it is true that it's only after Hamann came on that the game changed isn't it and it's also true that that change was forced on Rafa. It's also a fact that in the final 2 years later Rafa fecked up by not playing Crouch.
Rafa did many things right but he is no icon of LFC, not even close to Shanks, Paisley, Fagan etc in my book.

The Hamann change wasn't a forced change...he took Finnan off and brought Didi on at half time....pushing Gerrard further up the field and thus allowing him more freedom to get at Milan....

I will admit Crouch should have been introduced earlier in the Athens final...

Rafa deserves his place in the hall of fame

yeah he does, definately, but it also needs to be known he aint here anymore, so he doesnt need to be in all peoples sigs and pics.. the guys a legend, but that was then

What about if people have pics or statements of Fagan or Bob or Shanks or Evans or GH or Kenny or Keegan or Thommo ? Should they be gone as well .

no, but the whole 'he'll be back, here are pics of him, all inter related, for the good of the forum, to calm it down.. but ur right, it should be allowed, but not with the wind up parts some have (no, cant remember who)

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