Liverpool FC Forum

by **SeaofRed** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:32 pm

How anyone can say David Beckham isn't/wasn't a great England player is beyond me. I think we have missed him at this World Cup.

I guess the greatest English player of all time will always bring about different opinions, but for me the greatest England player of my life time is Alan Shearer by a country mile.

by **In and Out** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:35 pm

Judge wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Gazza hasn't scored a goal from open play for England that I can remember.

did u not see his great goal against the scots in euro 96

he befuddled the scotch defence with marvellous skill and drilled the ball home

one of the best goals i have seen

then laid on the floor while the lads squirted water in his gob from those blue bottles

Fantastic goal an all that was.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:23 pm

Judge wrote:
Big Niall wrote:Gazza hasn't scored a goal from open play for England that I can remember.

did u not see his great goal against the scots in euro 96

he befuddled the scotch defence with marvellous skill and drilled the ball home

one of the best goals i have seen

then laid on the floor while the lads squirted water in his gob from those blue bottles

I was referring to the joke player David Beckham - how many goals from open play in competitions?

Gazza was class in his prime but the slow winger who cannot dribble or score from play is a joke.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 5:24 pm

SeaofRed wrote:How anyone can say David Beckham isn't/wasn't a great England player is beyond me. I think we have missed him at this World Cup.

I guess the greatest English player of all time will always bring about different opinions, but for me the greatest England player of my life time is Alan Shearer by a country mile.

Shearer was world class.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 6:36 pm

Big Niall wrote:Okay - Spain are an exception, I tipped them as contenders before the tournament.

While there is the rare talent outside of Spain in Europe, as a whole, they are poor. Don't believe the hype. Just because modern day footballers are famous and paid a lot of money doesn't make them top players.

You initially said that Italy, Germany, Spain, Argentina and Brazil were contenders for the title - three European sides, two South American. Since Italy got knocked out and the European picks stumbled you've moved on from criticising England players as being "technically inferior to most teams the competition incl. Algeria", and now group European sides as one "poor" bunch.

The reality of course is that between the European sides there are as many players who would get into a world XI as those from the South American contingent; most from Spain, but Gerrard, Ashley Cole (name me a better LB?), Rooney and Robben (name me a better left winger?) would all be pushing for a place. But as anyone who has a clue about the game knows, there is more to it than simply having gifted players - and Spain and England have enough of them; to be successful they have to play as a team and so far the South American sides have done that better than their European rivals.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:26 pm

I disagree

I don't think players like james,Johnson,upson,terry, even carra (top bloke),lampard,lennon,heskey,defoe, barry, SWP, Milner etc are top players - most of them nowhere close. Every tournament the manager gets the blame but those players are hype.

I agree Ashley cole is class, as is Rooney when on form, SG needs somebody like Alonso next to him to do his stuff.

I guess tradition blinded me that the Italians and Germans will do well.

by **SeaofRed** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 7:37 pm

My England team for after the World Cup would be -

-----------------------J.Hart-----------------------
Johnson-------Dawson-------Terry-------A.Cole-----

A.Johnson------Parker----Gerrard--------J.Cole-----

--------------Defoe---------Rooney-------------

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 8:46 pm

SeaofRed wrote:My England team for after the World Cup would be -

-----------------------J.Hart-----------------------
Johnson-------Dawson-------Terry-------A.Cole-----

A.Johnson------Parker----Gerrard--------J.Cole-----

--------------Defoe---------Rooney-------------

At least you are smart enough to realise that if SG and Lampard have been krap for a decade, they aren't going to suddenly click.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:06 pm

You speak as if 11 Rooneys, or 11 Messis are needed to challenge in the latter stages. What's needed is a sprinkling of world class players (Cole, Gerrard, Rooney at a minimum), a strong spine - players like Terry, Barry, Johnson are adequate (Defoe is good enough, too) - and experience (James, Terry, Lampard, Carra, Gerrard, Barry etc..) - plus of course a quality, experienced coach (Capello 7 x titles, 1 x UCL). Most of these are necessary qualities, but not sufficient - because then they have to play as a team. Look at the Italian side that won it in '06 and you see similar characteristics - Grosso, Materazzi, Gattuso, Toni, Camoranesi, Perotta, Pirlo, Zambrotta, Totti, Cannavaro, Buffon + Lippi. If England don't progress it won't be down to a lack of quality.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:31 pm

LFC2007 wrote:You speak as if 11 Rooneys, or 11 Messis are needed to challenge in the latter stages. What's needed is a sprinkling of world class players (Cole, Gerrard, Rooney at a minimum), a strong spine - players like Terry, Barry, Johnson are adequate (Defoe is good enough, too) - and experience (James, Terry, Lampard, Carra, Gerrard, Barry etc..) - plus of course a quality, experienced coach (Capello 7 x titles, 1 x UCL). Most of these are necessary qualities, but not sufficient - because then they have to play as a team. Look at the Italian side that won it in '06 and you see similar characteristics - Grosso, Materazzi, Gattuso, Toni, Camoranesi, Perotta, Pirlo, Zambrotta, Totti, Cannavaro, Buffon + Lippi. If England don't progress it won't be down to a lack of quality.

So what will it be down to?

They have never one a quarter final against a European or South African team on foreign soil.

I think only A.cole, Rooney (when on form - not now), and SG only when he has a player like Alonso next to him is top class.

James,Carra (nowdays), Lennon,SWP, Heskey, Barry are all farily poor in my opinion, that is half a team.

Capello is one of the best coaches in the world as you said - so if England get dumped out in the mid stages again , the problem is not the manager.

by **LFC2007** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 10:47 pm

The problem might be with the manager if he reverts to using Heskey or Lennon, or SWP (there are better players available - like Joe Cole, so I don't know why you keep mentioning them), and if we don't move Gerrard back into the centre. Why? Because tactics that don't make the most of the quality available absolutely put at risk whether England progress or not, and that falls squarely at the feet of Mr Capello. The bottom line is there is enough there, they - players and management - have to make it work, tactically and mentally. If you want another example of a team not blessed by quality but capable of progressing far - the German side that made it to the semis last time round; Lehmann, Friedrich, Kehl, Klose, Mertesacker, Ballack, Lahm, Borowski, Schneider, Podolski, Metzelder + Klinsmann.

by **Big Niall** » Fri Jun 25, 2010 11:54 pm

LFC2007 wrote:The problem might be with the manager if he reverts to using Heskey or Lennon, or SWP (there are better players available - like Joe Cole, so I don't know why you keep mentioning them), and if we don't move Gerrard back into the centre. Why? Because tactics that don't make the most of the quality available absolutely put at risk whether England progress or not, and that falls squarely at the feet of Mr Capello. The bottom line is there is enough there, they - players and management - have to make it work, tactically and mentally. If you want another example of a team not blessed by quality but capable of progressing far - the German side that made it to the semis last time round; Lehmann, Friedrich, Kehl, Klose, Mertesacker, Ballack, Lahm, Borowski, Schneider, Podolski, Metzelder + Klinsmann.

Do you agree that Joe Cole didn't have a great season (injury etc) and that SG was way below his standard without Alonso?

Bearing in mind that SG and Lampard have been terrible every single tournament, what team to do suggest are world beaters?

by **LFC2007** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 12:26 am

By recollection, Joe Cole has been dogged by injury throughout his career, but he usually comes up with the goods - like he did at OT, to stave off the Manc title challenge. He's a clever, crafty player who can make and score goals, what else is there to say other than that he really is quite a handy footballer?

What Gerrard did four years ago bears no relevance to 2010. What is of relevance is that he had a very good game against Slovenia, a pretty solid game against the states and besides that he's a world class player, and world class players who are motivated - and he seems to be so - can be very dangerous. Lampard, contrary to what I've heard, played well against Slovenia and is able enough to play in the midfield. Barry had a bit of a dodgy game but I'd keep him in because he's usually quite solid. Then it's Rooney, Cole and either Defoe or Milner. I suppose it just depends on how highly you rate these players. If you think Khedira, Mertesacker, Podolski etc.. are obviously better than Terry, Lampard and Cole, then I suppose there's no point discussing the merits of the England team because you're starting from a completely different set of assumptions. Looking at it from your perspective, though, you must surely find it bizarre that Chelsea would hang on to John Terry and Frank Lampard when they could just as well replace them with a Uruguayan centre back or a German midfielder.

by **In and Out** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 8:33 am

This is an interesting discussion. Like Niall I believe our players are over hyped individually by pundits, media and fans a like and therefore the team is pressured with expectations that maybe a little out of reach for the so called "Golden Generation". However, like LFC2007 though I concur that you don't need 11 world class players in every position to win major tournaments. Whether at club level or international level many teams down the years have proven that to win a major trophy 11 world class players are not essential. For instance we could look at our triumph in Istanbul 2005, Djimi Traore isn't world class and dare I say the Greek side that won the European Championships were not blessed with 11 world class players either.

The key(s) for me re the England team boils down to a few fundamentals that have been missing for over a good decade now. Balance, mentality and responsibility.

The mentality of the England side is quite strange especially when it affects the sides technical ability. These players (some of them, Lampard and Rooney especially) have appeared to forget how to control and lay off a simple ball. An essential element all good sides need, is to be able to retain possesion for long periods of time and dictate the tempo of a game. I cannot honestly remember the last time I saw an England player who didn't treat the ball like a hot potatoe (Paul Gascoigne). And I suppose this incorporates responsibility, where a player in the England side is confident in his ability that he'll go looking for the ball, pick it up and go on a run with it. Rarely does this happen anymore, perhaps our current players are not akin to the Barnes/Gascoigne mould in where they're naturally gifted at ghosting past oppossing players with the ball at their feet.

But what we have seen from Gerrard especially and Lampard a little less

at club level is the inability to carry their club form over to the national side. I think there is a natural fear in the England side of taking on the resposibility to break a game with a moment of brilliance. I think these players are tentative about making mistakes and of course failing, in their cavelier decisions of taking responsibility. Maybe the rivalry at club level has something to do with this but it doesn't seem to affect other national sides. Gerrard is the big fish in the Liverpool pond, Lampard likewise at Chelsea, Rooney at Man U too, when these bigfish are gathered up for the national side it seems as though neither one of them know what their roles are at international level, thus seeming reluctant to carry the mantle for their country.

With this rivalry at club level does it make 'togetherness' problematic when it comes to the national side. These fellas are rivals week in week out and no love loss is apparent when the likes of said players and Premiership teams collide. Is this in the back of their mind? The Premier league for example has so many foreigners in it, that when these fellas (foreigners) meet back up with their national side, where many of their team mates ply their trade in Italy, France, Spain and Germany. There perhaps isn't a reluctance to bond/gel with one another as their is with the English players and perhaps it is easier for them to come together and unite. Hardly any English players infact none at all in our squad play outside of the Premiership.

Add to that the balance of the English side, although I've harped on about Lampard in this post for me he shouldn't be playing alongside Gerrard in midfield, the balance is wrong. I think the mentality and responsibilty of the players themselves is more important as we've seen sides like Australia (before) reach the quarter-finals of the world cup with (to be honest) very little ability; their mentality more or less carried them that far, like wise with the Kiwis in this tournemant (even though they didn't get out of their group). If England had that spirit/mentality or half as much as these two sides do we'd go a lot further. But as we don't the balance of the team has bee flagged. I cannot, will not, ever fathom why and how the England coaches have deployed Steven Gerrard into the grave yard shifts over the years. Arguably Lampard is more talented than a player like Carrick, but when you put together a team its got to be just that... a team, not individuals. Carrick is probably the closest player we've got that would compliment the talents of Gerrard in midfield. He, Carrick (isn't World class) but I'd bet my mortgage that him and Gerrard would prove to be a more productive midfield pairing than Gerrard and Lampard. Carrick would sit for starters and has the ability to dictate the tempo of a game and move the ball around Alonso-esk which would allow Gerrard to play his game. Lampard doesn't, won't, can't do this for England and Gerrard 9/10 is asked to sit more and of course we immediately loose his final third influence on the game, while Lampard huff n puffs instead.

Left midfield is a slight problem too, and the persistance with roller skate Heskey upfront makes matters worse. Of course these are managerial decisons that influence the balance of the team. But for me, first and foremost the issue that needs addressing is the mentality and the balls to take on responsibility amongst the players first.

by **Big Niall** » Sat Jun 26, 2010 1:54 pm

SG was one of the best "midfielders" in the world when he had Alonso next to him. SG isn' a traditional centre midfielder, he charges forward a lot which is fine when Alonso is there to spread the ball around and control that area of the pitch. Lampard similar (though not as good) when Makelele and then Ballack held the middle.

This is why SG and Lampard have ensured England NEVER control a game (I missed the Slovenia one but they are minnows anyway).

Without a player of the ability of makele,ballack,alonso etc SG and Lampard are very kick and rush (to quote Der Kaiser).

In 3 games against USA,Algeria and Slovenia (easy group as the media said in december) only 2 goals scored.

I'd make Germany favourites tomorrow but only slight as the germans aren't great either.

I just think the very top teams are in a different class.

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