Liverpool FC Forum

[Reg]

Marvellous mate, marvellous. Agree with every word, why didnt you say that before? 

[account deleted by request]

I also remember that when you were prompted about Ferguson's rotation, you made clear that Ferguson's rotation was not Rafa Style, so that's why that rotation didn't cost him the league. Which is fair enough... *but* then I'm a little confused when you open a Boom Boom Boom thread explaining how Fergie's rotation is the reason Barcelona ridiculed Manchester United. No, rotation wasn't the reason of Manchester being defeated because Barcelona had a lot of chopping and changing in that game. It was a matter of two teams playing attacking game and happening the unavoidable: the team with sensibly better quality won. The Carricks cannot be compared to the Xavis.

I do really enjoy the rotation discussions. I do have learnt a lot from them, and I do think you have a good part of truth. I've even changed my opinion on rotation these years, because right now I think massive rotation is a no-no, where as 3 years ago I thought it wasn't that negative.

But please, you two, let's not pretend we are totally right or wrong about something, because that's impossible.

Just felt I'd come back to this as it's quite an interesting point. The difference between Rafa style, Fergie Style and the effects it has on the teams performance.

Firstly it's not really a fair representation of what I said in the "boom boom boom" thread to say that THE reason Barcelona ridiculed Manchester United is rotation. It's not a fair representation because I never said it. The main reason Barcelona beat Man Utd as I've said consistently since, is that man U believed their own hypw and tried to have a festival of football with Barca. Had they played Hiddink style against them, they would probably have beaten them.

I did refer to rotation in the final on two counts. Firstly they went with a wierd little diamond formation with Giggs at it's point. The players were very clearly not comfortable with it, and it was the silliest piece of tactical tinkering I had seen in a Champions League final since we played AC Milan. The other point in which I couldn't resist wee mention for rotation and the delayed gazelle effect was despite the fact the Mancs had been tinkering for the last couple of months of the season, and had "rested" the whole team the previous weekend, they were knackered in the final. It just goes to show that chasing the football is tiring, delayed Gazelle or not .

As for "Fergie style", I don't think it does them any more favours that Rafa style used to do us. They very nearly threw the Premier League away the season before last whilst employing it, only a timely intervention by Steve Bennett on the last day saved them. Equally, their "resting" of the whole team in the league game at Chelsea did them no favours, as only John Terry falling on his erse prevented Chelsea winning the Champions League final.

And this season, my feeling is that they won the league despite not because of the silliness. Many times the original formation and set up was inept, only for the introduction of a spunky forward from the bench to change the game. I hardly think it's a ringing endorsement for silliness when you constantly have to dig yourself out of the sh!te in the dying moments.

And of course people say, "well they proved it worked" and it completely misses the point. They say in the next breath "but they've got a stronger squad than us, otherwise it would work for us as well". I always smile at this last point. My point has always been, if your squad isn't good enough to allow you to chnge six players per match, don't do it then. If you can't really cope with leaving both Torres and Gerrard on the bench, don't do it then. Life really is quite simple when you think about it.

Anyway for us the proof of the pudding really has been in the eating. Some of us have been saying for three seasons now that if we gave ourselves a chance by cutting down on the ridiculousness, the team was good enough to challenge. We cut down on the ridiculousness, and we challenged. Had we followed it through and not decided to give Martin Skyrtel a try at right back against Boro Away, we might even have won it. Mind you, we did have a golden opportunity to do so, and they don't come around every year.

You convinced me some while ago about rotation Mick, or maybe I should say you highlighted the problem and our results since have convinced me.

Certainly the last couple of seasons have changed my thinking on 4-2-3-1 also. I was always in favour of 4-4-2 with a creative second striker helping to take on some of the buffeting and harrying, but it seems that our new system works well with Torres, and just becomes something of a problem when he's not available.   

As for Fergie and his styling in the final, I think he fell into a similar trap to the one Mourinho did against us back in 2006 in the FA cup semi, changing the formation in an effort to surprise his opponents, rather that sticking with the formation that had got them there in the first place.

Like you I believe we have had a team strong enough to challenge for a few years now, but for one reason or another we have failed. Where we really differ is I am still not convinced that Rafa has really "seen the light". He still seems to make too many expensive mistakes for me. (I just hope I am wrong) Yes, he has cut back on some of the baffling team selections of previous seasons, but he still threw in some strange selections last season (Skrtel at fullback being the most obvious)

My other worry is our defence which has been the rock on which we have come to rely on. Carra is getting no younger and for the first time we started to see a few cracks in his armour. Skrtel and Agger while good young players are no where near the standard of Hyypia of a couple of years ago, never mind when he was at his peak. Which leads me on to our midfield, which I believe was in no small part responsible for helping us maintain our good defensive record.

While I believe we could cope with the loss of either one of Masch or Alonso, losing both would rip the heart out of our team, and leave our defence open to problems.

[Parkinson]

My other worry is our defence which has been the rock on which we have come to rely on. Carra is getting no younger and for the first time we started to see a few cracks in his armour. Skrtel and Agger while good young players are no where near the standard of Hyypia of a couple of years ago, never mind when he was at his peak. Which leads me on to our midfield, which I believe was in no small part responsible for helping us maintain our good defensive record.

While I believe we could cope with the loss of either one of Masch or Alonso, losing both would rip the heart out of our team, and leave our defence open to problems.

I can see you're concern in both the defence and the possibility of having Javier and Xabi leave for pastures new. Houllier's best bit of business in my opinion was signing Hyypia for 2.5M or whatever it was ten years ago. Like Mascharano and Alonso Hyypia will not be easily replaced and I am in two minds both about Agger and Skertel. Neither for my money are as good as the big Finn therefore we will be a little more vulnrable because of that alone. Added to that the unthinkable of Alonso and Javier leaving and this area along with our defence could quickly become our achillies heel like it was back in the mid 90's.