Liverpool FC Forum

[account deleted by request]

What do we do if they offer us £60million for Masch or £40million for Alonso? Is it worth getting more than the going rate if you are strengthening your enemy?

[GYBS]

think it would be crazy us selling them mate - yeah its good money but you cant strengthen your rivals that much

[Judge]

Priorities look good to me judge bar number 7 which we can all give a miss

chilled san miguel - rafa could not turn that down 

[bigmick]

The "golden opportunity" theory will get its true tester next season.

I pray to all that is holy we we start and finish in first so we do not have to hear this cr@p over and over and over...

I shouldn't worry too much about being proven right and the rest. You'll no doubt claim I called it wrong anyway even if the league is a bit tougher next season. Similar to the way in which you claimed I'd been wrong on rotation, despite the fact we radically altered our approach, largely dropped it as a policy and enjoyed immediate success doing it 

FWIW though I pray to all that is holy that we win the Premiership next season as well (although I don't really care if we lead from the start or not, just so long as we lead at the end) . At least we can agree on that part anyway.

[kazza]

Similar to the way in which you claimed I'd been wrong on rotation, despite the fact we radically altered our approach, largely dropped it as a policy and enjoyed immediate success doing it 

Actually I said you did not have all the facts on why players are rested and also said that Fergie rotated more than us yet still won the title.    so if you insist on telling me my own opinion at least get it right 

[bigmick]

Whatever Trevor. I'll leave it you to go find the relavent quotes. It was in the "you've been wrong on lots of things" post, although i must confess I can't remember the thread.

Anyways fingers crossed we win the league and then you can celebrate not only the victory but also the fact that we managed to win it despite the "golden opportunity" theory. Hopefully I'm more wrong about that than I was about Rafa style.

[Sabre]

Similar to the way in which you claimed I'd been wrong on rotation, despite the fact we radically altered our approach, largely dropped it as a policy and enjoyed immediate success doing it 

Actually I said you did not have all the facts on why players are rested and also said that Fergie rotated more than us yet still won the title.    so if you insist on telling me my own opinion at least get it right 

I don't want to get involved in the regular fights of two posters I appreciate (that is, I don't agree what Kazza says about Mick's personality, and I don't agree Kazza has any obsession with mick, it's just that they clash). Both top fellas IMHO!

But in rotation matters I can't help to enter the dicussion

I have to agree what Kazza says in that quote in bold because I remember what he said, which was similar to what I said: IMHO, rotation was not, is not, and won't be a key factor that explains our success or failures.

In that sense, I'll always disagree Mick. As I disagree him when he says we'll have a lot of years in a row of English dominance in Europe (I think it's cycles and this year could be different depending on where the biggest transfer stars end).

But my point is, Kazza, Mick, that there's no point of talking about you were right or wrong. We disagree and that's all.

Disagreeing with someone implies that you think he's wrong, but let's not get too carried away in discussions because we can reach to exagerations.

For instance Mick, if you say that we RADICALLY changed our approach to rotation, then I have to ask you whether you talked at some point of the season about a dimmer switch, and whether you did complain about us not rotating in the same way (almost zero) of the start of the season. IMHO Rafa rotated less at the start of the season than later. And I have to agree it seems it was good for the team. I hope he starts rotating little next season too!

I also remember that when you were prompted about Ferguson's rotation, you made clear that Ferguson's rotation was not Rafa Style, so that's why that rotation didn't cost him the league. Which is fair enough... *but* then I'm a little confused when you open a Boom Boom Boom thread explaining how Fergie's rotation is the reason Barcelona ridiculed Manchester United. No, rotation wasn't the reason of Manchester being defeated because Barcelona had a lot of chopping and changing in that game. It was a matter of two teams playing attacking game and happening the unavoidable: the team with sensibly better quality won. The Carricks cannot be compared to the Xavis.

I do really enjoy the rotation discussions. I do have learnt a lot from them, and I do think you have a good part of truth. I've even changed my opinion on rotation these years, because right now I think massive rotation is a no-no, where as 3 years ago I thought it wasn't that negative.

But please, you two, let's not pretend we are totally right or wrong about something, because that's impossible.

[Judge]

2 fellas? i thought Kazza was a bird

[Sabre]

2 fellas? i thought Kazza was a bird

No, no?

A bird is Kazza_1. This is Kazza.

If she's a bird, then I prompt her to send a photograph 

[bigmick]

You'd need to find Kazza's "you were wrong about everything post" Sabre to get the full picture  Like so much on the forum, there are wheels within wheels, history behind so much, comments within comments. I too enjoy the rotation theories and discussions, as I do all football discussions. As long as you are discussing the game with somebody who a) wants to discuss football and has not got some other strange agenda which only they can understand and b) they have even a basic grasp of the subject matter, a slight clue even, it's very enjoyable to discuss all aspects.

If either of the two criteria previously mentioned aren't able to be met though, it gets very tiresome very quickly.

[Sabre]

"you were wrong about everything post" Sabre to get the full picture 

Ah, fair enough. If Kazza said that, then he got carried away. For me, you're partly right, and partly wrong. 

[Judge]

2 fellas? i thought Kazza was a bird

No, no?

A bird is Kazza_1. This is Kazza.

If she's a bird, then I prompt her to send a photograph 

i know that, but kazza in its self is a birds name

[bigmick]

I also remember that when you were prompted about Ferguson's rotation, you made clear that Ferguson's rotation was not Rafa Style, so that's why that rotation didn't cost him the league. Which is fair enough... *but* then I'm a little confused when you open a Boom Boom Boom thread explaining how Fergie's rotation is the reason Barcelona ridiculed Manchester United. No, rotation wasn't the reason of Manchester being defeated because Barcelona had a lot of chopping and changing in that game. It was a matter of two teams playing attacking game and happening the unavoidable: the team with sensibly better quality won. The Carricks cannot be compared to the Xavis.

I do really enjoy the rotation discussions. I do have learnt a lot from them, and I do think you have a good part of truth. I've even changed my opinion on rotation these years, because right now I think massive rotation is a no-no, where as 3 years ago I thought it wasn't that negative.

But please, you two, let's not pretend we are totally right or wrong about something, because that's impossible.

Just felt I'd come back to this as it's quite an interesting point. The difference between Rafa style, Fergie Style and the effects it has on the teams performance.

Firstly it's not really a fair representation of what I said in the "boom boom boom" thread to say that THE reason Barcelona ridiculed Manchester United is rotation. It's not a fair representation because I never said it. The main reason Barcelona beat Man Utd as I've said consistently since, is that man U believed their own hypw and tried to have a festival of football with Barca. Had they played Hiddink style against them, they would probably have beaten them.

I did refer to rotation in the final on two counts. Firstly they went with a wierd little diamond formation with Giggs at it's point. The players were very clearly not comfortable with it, and it was the silliest piece of tactical tinkering I had seen in a Champions League final since we played AC Milan. The other point in which I couldn't resist wee mention for rotation and the delayed gazelle effect was despite the fact the Mancs had been tinkering for the last couple of months of the season, and had "rested" the whole team the previous weekend, they were knackered in the final. It just goes to show that chasing the football is tiring, delayed Gazelle or not .

As for "Fergie style", I don't think it does them any more favours that Rafa style used to do us. They very nearly threw the Premier League away the season before last whilst employing it, only a timely intervention by Steve Bennett on the last day saved them. Equally, their "resting" of the whole team in the league game at Chelsea did them no favours, as only John Terry falling on his erse prevented Chelsea winning the Champions League final.

And this season, my feeling is that they won the league despite not because of the silliness. Many times the original formation and set up was inept, only for the introduction of a spunky forward from the bench to change the game. I hardly think it's a ringing endorsement for silliness when you constantly have to dig yourself out of the sh!te in the dying moments.

And of course people say, "well they proved it worked" and it completely misses the point. They say in the next breath "but they've got a stronger squad than us, otherwise it would work for us as well". I always smile at this last point. My point has always been, if your squad isn't good enough to allow you to chnge six players per match, don't do it then. If you can't really cope with leaving both Torres and Gerrard on the bench, don't do it then. Life really is quite simple when you think about it.

Anyway for us the proof of the pudding really has been in the eating. Some of us have been saying for three seasons now that if we gave ourselves a chance by cutting down on the ridiculousness, the team was good enough to challenge. We cut down on the ridiculousness, and we challenged. Had we followed it through and not decided to give Martin Skyrtel a try at right back against Boro Away, we might even have won it. Mind you, we did have a golden opportunity to do so, and they don't come around every year.

[Reg]

Mick.... can you paraphrase that in four lines mate?

[bigmick]

I can do it one Reg. Rotation when practiced on a grand scale, is utter b0ll0cks.