Liverpool FC Forum

[bigmick]

WARNING-SCROLL DOWN. THIS IS QUITE A LONG POST!!!



This one has been doing the rounds for a couple of days now and it's stirred up quite a lot of emotion. On the one hand, people who I suppose can't reconcile how we keep going quite well in Europe but can't seem to get it together in the league, are starting to think that perhaps we aren't giving it our all domestically. On the other, people dismiss the theory as total b0ll0cks, we do try our best it's just circumstances or lack of quality or other reasons which have contributed to our relative failure.

I think we do try to win the league, Rafa does want to win the league. I think he wants to win every competition we enter, even including the Carling Cup. Those who suggest that saying otherwise is ridiculous are in this most basic sense, correct.

Surely though, the issue here is priority. Now if we were to reach the FA Cup final and the Champions League final in the same season, I remember from when we used to actually do stuff like that there's only a few days in between the matches. Now if Rafa was going to style/rotate/rest in either of the games, I would have thought it would be fairly sensible to do so in the FA Cup final. My suspicion is FWIW that he would probably play the same team in both games anyway, but you take my point. I don't think too many people on here would have any bother with that. Similarly, if we reached the Carling Cup final and the FA Cup final, if Lee Peltier was going to get a game in either, it'd be the Carling Cup all the way.


So no problems so far. We can conclude from that that the FA Cup is third in our priorities, the Carling Cup fourth. Some might say the Carling Cup is an irrelevance, but it isn't if you're out of everything else and get to the semi's. The crux of course is which one out of the Champions League and the Premiership is the number one priority.

My suspicion is, infact I'd be absolutely staggered if it wasn't the case, that Rafa thinks we have got more chance of winning the Champions league than we have the Premiership. Why? Because it is so, and Rafa isn't an idiot. Not only is it easier to win, but because it's a Cup competition even if you don't win it you can end up looking quite good (last year for example) and even if you feck it up a bit (the year we got done by Benfica) people forget about it fairly quickly.

Given we qualify practically automatically, we really only need to get out of the group for people to think "well that wasn't too bad". Getting out of the group is a bit like getting out of bed after a night on the p!ss, not always straightforward and potentially a bit of a pain in the erse, but you always seem to manage it in the end. Then you've got a two legger in the last sixteen with Twenty Enscheden, Dukla Prague, Lokomotiv Leipzig, Legia Warsaw, Red Star Belgrade, Nice (which of course is pronounced Neece which is just as well as it sounds cooler and there is no long term future in a football team named after a biscuit), Trabzonspor, IFK Gothenburg, Anderlecht or one of those outfits. (In truth the only reason I put that last bit was to give a mention to Locomotiv Leipzig, I always liked that name). Anyway it's one of those teams which before the advent of digital television you'd have had to listen to the Away leg on the radio and it would have sounded like the commentator was doing it through a telephone, with a piece of Town Centre public toilet bog roll over the mouthpiece. Having got past all that it's all up and anything could happen. Added in you've got the "Anfield factor", so once we get to the point where we're playing someone good, or we've fecked it up against someone rubbish and we really could do with winning a game, the crowd turn up and suck it into the net. Job done. 


In the League of course it's not so complicated, but not so simple either. You can't really slip under the radar in the league, if you ain't good enough you get shot down. Rafa thinks our best chance of winning a major trophy (discounting the domestic Cups) is the Champions league, and I agree with him. 'Course it's imperative that we come in the top four in the league, but as John says, first is everything and second is something else (or whatever the feck it is).

So do we prioritise the Champions League in terms of team selection and preparation? I think we slightly do yes if I'm honest. I think if Rafa knew from the owners and fans that we would be more than happy to forgive him a Champions league debacle (which would probably be not getting out of the group I guess) in return for a proper tilt at the league, then his team selections would be different. Put it this way, when he was resting blokes after six games this season it certainly as it turned out hasn't done an awaful lot for our league run in. I suppose charitably if you believe and sign up to "delayed gazelle" you might say it's going to help us finish six points and not three in front of Everton, but it's in the Champions League where if there is any benefit (and there isn't frankly so don't hold your breath:D) that we're most likely to see it.

So there you go. My conclusion, the Champions League is his number one priority, but I don't really blame him as that's our best chance of winning a big trophy. Next season though, I hope he is prepared to put our Champions League hopes in jeapordy in order to get as high as possible in the League.


*If you continued reading to this point and you are bored, you are an idiot. Not because it's a particularly good read, but because you should just have stopped reading it earlier on.

[skatesy]

I honestly think that if we would've showed some team selection consistency earlier on in the season we would've been able to finish off some games, not get so many draws and maybe even erase one of those unluckly losses. All that said, if that were the case I believe that we would've been right in the title race with Manchester United and Chelsea. And even if we would've kept that team selection consistency I still believe that we would've made it through the group stages of the CL and still been where we are.

Overall, the team selection that Rafa has employed in the last two months, or so, has been very consistent and, as a result, our results have been very consistent. This goes to show that this consistency resolutes in our quality as we have seen over the last two months.

[Thingy]

Good post Mick, as per. I dont believe that if we would of played the same team consistantly from the start of the campaign we would of won the league. Maybe 6 points or so better off, just not enough to win it. Were not good enough yet. Reading away , he didnt try. But by then we were effectively out of it , so maybe he was right to. As Mick said we have more chance of winning the CL than any other competition. Why try to do something you know your not gunna be able to do? Thats not being a quitter, its being realistic. Resting players earlier in the season didnt benefit us then but it could do now, we should be able to rest players and not have the " He dosent care abot the league" people having a go. He wants to win the league, he just dosent have the squad capable to do so. Yet.

[skatesy]

I dont believe that if we would of played the same team consistantly from the start of the campaign we would of won the league.

Fair enough - and, expanding from my point I just believe that if we would've shown more consistency (less rotation) we would have been in the 'running' for the title, not necessarily a guaranteed win.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

I don't see why people get their knickers in a twist over the start of the season. We were unbeaten until December wasn't it. Top of the league early on. And to be frank, it was the european cup that was failing because of it...up until the Reading game (in the league) we'd won eight and drew five. But the Reading game changed the season. We gave up, plain and simple, for me Benitez gave up because of the european cup. For me he wasn't prepared to go out at the group stage, and concentrate on the league. This is where he "priorities" the european cup ahead of the league.

This will take some explaining...he put the league first (imo) up until the point that europe was about to go right out the window. Once he saw the european cup disappearing, the league became second on the priority list. If we'd taken 9 points from our opening three champions league games, then I don't think we'd be in the league position we currently find ourselves in. But to the fact that we picked up just one point in the opening three group games has forced the league to suffer IMO. This is where Benitez puts europe first, he's very happy to see the league slip away, but won't let europe go.

[Rush Job]

I dont believe that if we would of played the same team consistantly from the start of the campaign we would of won the league.

Fair enough - and, expanding from my point I just believe that if we would've shown more consistency (less rotation) we would have been in the 'running' for the title, not necessarily a guaranteed win.

At the start of the season did you know our best 11 and formation? Maybe he didnt either, seems to now though.

[Kharhaz]

WARNING-SCROLL DOWN. THIS IS QUITE A LONG POST!!!

I want more of this. More WARNING IM GOING TO BITCH or WARNING IM DRUNK THE REST ARE JUST RAMBLINGS !!! or WARNING IM HERE TO WIND YOU UP !

Ingenious !!

[account deleted by request]

I think its fair enough to say that due to the monetary demands, Rafa puts the CL as first on our list of priorities. I think its more the foreign players rather than Rafa that see the glory, excitement and fame of European nights and are more "up for it " than they would be playing against Wigan or Reading. You can hardly blame them when its obvious from the noise that the fans are more up for those nights also, even if we all "want the league more"

This is where I think we sometimes need a stronger leader both on and off the pitch. Neither Rafa or Gerrard seem to me to be great at the motivational side of the game. On the pitch we need someone who wont accept any player not giving 100% effort even against "little" teams and off the pitch a manager that sees a player not giving his all and drags him off even if its not half time.

Its probably not a concious thing on the part of the players, but especially our foreign players must find it hard to build themselves up mentally for a kicking match at Blackburn rather than a footballing display against Barca. Certainly I don't believe Rafa sends out the right message to the other players at times when he rests our best players. Maybe there is sometimes a little bit of complacancy and a subconcious sense of its not that important or Gerrard and Torres etc would be in the team. 

This doesn't explain our long line of poor results against the other top sides in the league but not in the cups though, as surely our players are "up" for any game against the other top clubs. Maybe we lack a little belief in the prem that we have in abundance in Europe?

Good post anyway Mick

[ruskiy playmaker]

I don't see why people get their knickers in a twist over the start of the season. We were unbeaten until December wasn't it. Top of the league early on. And to be frank, it was the european cup that was failing because of it...up until the Reading game (in the league) we'd won eight and drew five. But the Reading game changed the season. We gave up, plain and simple, for me Benitez gave up because of the european cup. For me he wasn't prepared to go out at the group stage, and concentrate on the league. This is where he "priorities" the european cup ahead of the league.

This will take some explaining...he put the league first (imo) up until the point that europe was about to go right out the window. Once he saw the european cup disappearing, the league became second on the priority list. If we'd taken 9 points from our opening three champions league games, then I don't think we'd be in the league position we currently find ourselves in. But to the fact that we picked up just one point in the opening three group games has forced the league to suffer IMO. This is where Benitez puts europe first, he's very happy to see the league slip away, but won't let europe go.

GBJH, when will you ever understand that it's not just Rafa's decision of what trophy we should go for.  It's not like he just favors the CL and nothing else.  The reason he gave up on the Reading game, was because Torres and Gerrard were getting kicked around and it would have been a disaster if one of them had gotten injured.  Plus, he would have been fired, if he did not qualify for the knock out stages.  Please tell me, what would you have done in his shoes?

[Kharhaz]

I don't see why people get their knickers in a twist over the start of the season. We were unbeaten until December wasn't it. Top of the league early on. And to be frank, it was the european cup that was failing because of it...up until the Reading game (in the league) we'd won eight and drew five. But the Reading game changed the season. We gave up, plain and simple, for me Benitez gave up because of the european cup. For me he wasn't prepared to go out at the group stage, and concentrate on the league. This is where he "priorities" the european cup ahead of the league.

This will take some explaining...he put the league first (imo) up until the point that europe was about to go right out the window. Once he saw the european cup disappearing, the league became second on the priority list. If we'd taken 9 points from our opening three champions league games, then I don't think we'd be in the league position we currently find ourselves in. But to the fact that we picked up just one point in the opening three group games has forced the league to suffer IMO. This is where Benitez puts europe first, he's very happy to see the league slip away, but won't let europe go.

GBJH, when will you ever understand that it's not just Rafa's decision of what trophy we should go for.  It's not like he just favors the CL and nothing else.  The reason he gave up on the Reading game, was because Torres and Gerrard were getting kicked around and it would have been a disaster if one of them had gotten injured.  Plus, he would have been fired, if he did not qualify for the knock out stages.  Please tell me, what would you have done in his shoes?

So what your saying is our best players cannot stand up to the physical side of the game, indeed when teams like reading are threatening our entire season it just makes sense to give up and wrap up our best in cotton wool?

[Bad Bob]

Well, based on past discussions, this whole question seems to turn on what kinds of teams Rafa fields in the league before CL matches.  Does he field weaker sides than usual?  In the interests of discussing the matter objectively, I've compiled the relevant teamsheets below.  I've even thrown in the Barnsley lineup ahead of the Inter match for interest sake.  So that's 11 league matches (and counting) to see whether Rafa fields a weakened side in the league ahead of European nights and, if he does, whether that means he over-prioritizes the Champions League (because that's what we're really discussing here):

1) Lineup v. Aston Villa (ahead of Toulouse away)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Gerrard, Alonso, Riise, Kuyt, Torres

2) Lineup v. Sunderland (ahead of Toulouse at home)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Arbeloa, Pennant, Sissoko, Alonso, Babel, Voronin, Torres  (Note: Gerrard injured)

3) Lineup v. Portsmouth (ahead of Porto away)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Agger, Arbeloa, Pennant, Sissoko, Alonso, Benayoun, Voronin, Crouch

4) Lineup v. Wigan (ahead of Marseille at home)
Reina, Arbeloa, Carra, Hyypia, Aurelio, Pennant, Gerrard, Mascherano, Riise, Kuyt, Torres

5) Lineup v. Everton (ahead of Besiktas away)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Riise, Gerrard, Sissoko, Mascherano, Benayoun, Voronin, Kuyt (Note: Torres injured)

6) Lineup v. Blackburn (ahead of Besiktas at home)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Riise, Gerrard, Sissoko, Mascherano, Benayoun, Babel, Kuyt (Torres still injured)

7) Lineup v. Newcastle (ahead of Porto at home)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Arbeloa, Gerrard, Sissoko, Leiva, Kewell, Kuyt, Torres

8) Lineup v. Reading (ahead of Marseille away)
Reina, Arbeloa, Carra, Hobbs, Riise, Gerrard, Sissoko, Mascherano, Voronin, Crouch, Torres

9) Lineup v. Barnsley (ahead of Inter at home)
Itandje, Finnan, Carra, Hyypia, Riise, Benayoun, Alonso, Leiva, Babel, Crouch, Kuyt

10) Lineup v. Newcastle (ahead of Inter away)
Reina, Arbeloa, Carra, Skrtel, Riise, Pennant, Gerrard, Alonso, Leiva, Benayoun, Torres

11) Lineup v. Everton (ahead of Arsenal away)
Reina, Carra, Hyypia, Skrtel, Riise, Alonso, Leiva, Kuyt, Gerrard, Babel, Torres

12) Lineup v. Arsenal (ahead of Arsenal at home)
Reina, Finnan, Carra, Skrtel, Arbeloa, Plessis, Leiva, Pennant, Benayoun, Riise, Crouch

[ruskiy playmaker]

I don't see why people get their knickers in a twist over the start of the season. We were unbeaten until December wasn't it. Top of the league early on. And to be frank, it was the european cup that was failing because of it...up until the Reading game (in the league) we'd won eight and drew five. But the Reading game changed the season. We gave up, plain and simple, for me Benitez gave up because of the european cup. For me he wasn't prepared to go out at the group stage, and concentrate on the league. This is where he "priorities" the european cup ahead of the league.

This will take some explaining...he put the league first (imo) up until the point that europe was about to go right out the window. Once he saw the european cup disappearing, the league became second on the priority list. If we'd taken 9 points from our opening three champions league games, then I don't think we'd be in the league position we currently find ourselves in. But to the fact that we picked up just one point in the opening three group games has forced the league to suffer IMO. This is where Benitez puts europe first, he's very happy to see the league slip away, but won't let europe go.

GBJH, when will you ever understand that it's not just Rafa's decision of what trophy we should go for.  It's not like he just favors the CL and nothing else.  The reason he gave up on the Reading game, was because Torres and Gerrard were getting kicked around and it would have been a disaster if one of them had gotten injured.  Plus, he would have been fired, if he did not qualify for the knock out stages.  Please tell me, what would you have done in his shoes?

So what your saying is our best players cannot stand up to the physical side of the game, indeed when teams like reading are threatening our entire season it just makes sense to give up and wrap up our best in cotton wool?

I'm saying that it would have been a big risk to keep Gerrard and particularly Torres (who had a big knock, before being subbed) on the field when the game was already lost and there was a career threating game coming up in midweek.

[Scottbot]

*If you continued reading to this point and you are bored, you are an idiot. Not because it's a particularly good read, but because you should just have stopped reading it earlier on.

Brilliant this bit, and i have to say it kinda applied to me!!! 




As for the topic. Not particularly, I guess it became a higher priority when it looked like we were gonna go out at the group stages. It's worth pointing out that countless posters on here and a good portion of the press were using the 'your about to go out of Europe' Stick at that time despite the fact our league form and position was pretty good at the same stage. If he'd thrown in the towel in Europe (via his team selection) and opted to put full focus on the league he would have been lambasted for it by the press and by most of the guys who post in here (and everywhere else) as well.

[Igor Zidane]

Top post mick again . Well mine is slightly shorter but you'll get the message.

This season alone ,back in November i think you might remember. We were doing ever so well in the league (we hadn't lost and all that )and i think most were thinking we were giving it a good go to win the fecker. On the downside of this we were in danger of going out of the champions league through some very poor results. Next thing we know ,our glorious club owners were talking to a certain Mr klinnsman about replacing rafa.

So as much as we fans might forgive Mr Benitez a feck up in Europe if it meant us sustaining a crack at the league ,i think the owners (whomever they are if i'm honest )would not . Wonger big mick ,it's all in the wonger mate imo.

Anyway if we are not good enough to win the league , it's always nice to bring a nothing trophy like the champions league home ,don't you think?   After all it's that easy to win ,the mancs ,chelsea, madrid ,barca and the two milans do it every year.  

[Owzat]

You should NEVER prioritise a domestic cup in the early stages, maybe when you get to the QFs or SFs. But just a slightly different way of looking at the whole "priority quandry" here are some key dates working on the QF being the absolute earliest you should focus on a domestic cup. Champions League is tougher to work in, you want to advance because of the money, but you might battle through the groups and go out to a fairly ordinary side in the last sixteen.

CUP SCHEDULE - KEY STAGES

------------------CHAMPIONS LEAGUE----------LEAGUE CUP--------------FA CUP
SEPTEMBER--GROUPS (18)--------------------------------------------------------------
OCTOBER----GROUPS (3 & 24)---------------------------------------------------------
NOVEMBER--GROUPS (6 & 28)---------------------------------------------------------
DECEMBER---GROUPS (11)-------------------QFs (18/19)--------------------------
JANUARY------------------------------------------SFs (8/9 & 22/23)-------------------
FEBRUARY---LAST 16 (19)-------------------FINAL (24)----------------------------
MARCH--------LAST 16 (5)--------------------------------------------------QFs (5/6)
APRIL----------QFs (2 & 8), SFs (22 & 30)--------------------------------SFs (8/9)
MAY------------FINAL (21)---------------------------------------------------FINAL (17)



Apart from April when we could play a possible FIVE cup fixtures, no other month has more than two cup fixtures (of importance) So Rafa must be thinking we rest players early season in order for them to play four or five extra in April.

Personally I don't think that is too many games extra per month. Play reserves up to or beyond the QFs of domestic cup competitions and play the league and CL by ear. We made the CL hard for ourselves, had we won against Marseille at home it would have been much more comfortable. But none of the domestic cups start in earnest until December by which time the Champions League is "on a break".