Liverpool FC Forum

[Owzat]

I was thinking about how Gerrard, Hyypia, Carragher, Alonso and Reina have been here ages and are among our better players. So I thought it would be interesting to order the squad by date signed and see if anything interesting came out of it.

Top 10 Liverpool Players (08/09 Apps In Brackets)

01. 01/08/94 Jamie Carragher (39)
02. 01/08/98 Steven Gerrard (33)
03. 18/05/99 Sami Hyypia (16)
04. 01/08/04 Xabi Alonso (34)
05. 04/07/05 Jose "Pepe" Reina (36)
06. 12/01/06 Daniel Agger (18)
07. 05/07/06 Fabio Aurelio (23)
08. 26/07/06 Jermaine Pennant (4) - out on loan
09. 18/08/06 Dirk Kuyt (36)
10. 01/10/06 Nabil El Zhar (13)
11. 31/01/07 Alvaro Arbeloa (32)
11. 31/01/07 Javier Mascherano (25)
13. 01/07/07 Leiva Lucas (25)
13. 01/07/07 Charles Itandje (0)
13. 01/07/07 Andrei Voronin (0) - on loan
16. 04/07/07 Fernando Torres (26)
17. 12/07/07 Yossi Benayoun (30)
18. 13/07/07 Ryan Babel (31)
19. 01/08/07 Emilo Insua (7)
20. 31/08/07 Damien Plessis (5)
21. 11/01/08 Martin Skrtel (19)
22. 03/07/08 Phillipe Degen (2)
23. 04/07/08 Andrea Dossena (23)
24. 11/07/08 Diego Cavalieri (4)
25. 24/07/08 David N'Gog (11)
26. 31/08/08 Albert Riera (31)

Maybe just a list, but most of our best players/1st choice XI fall in the top 12 and were signed by end of 2007 January transfer window.

05. Reina
11. Arbeloa
07. Aurelio
01. Carragher
CB
09. Kuyt
LM
04. Alonso
11. Mascherano
02. Gerrard
CF

Missing Skrtel, Torres and Riera from our best XI. So most of our best XI weren't signed in the last two years, yet we've signed plenty of 1st team squad players in that period and spent a lot of time criticising a fair few of them - Keane, Babel, Lucas, Dossena and Voronin in particular. Cavalieri and Itandje don't play so much so they're not quite so heavily slated other than for their purchase. Leto has yet to play for us in competitive football, Degen has played twice and got injured twice or maybe he'd be mentioned more. I think it's fair to say a lot of signings in the past two signings have not impressed members of this forum, one or two of the better ones have.

Another interesting stat is the split involving seasons

Signed

Up to 05/06 : 5 players, 158 appearances (31.60 average)
06/07 : 5 players, 94 appearances (19.00 average)
07/08 : 11 players, 200 appearances (18.00 average)
08/09 : 5 players, 68 appearances (14.00 average*)

*Excludes Keane who would raise the average to 16.00 if included

Bear in mind Babel, Benayoun and Torres were signed in 07/08 so account for 87 of those 200 appearances. Riera accounts for nearly half the appearances made by players signed this season, Dossena most of the rest. If you split it in a slightly different way then it shows up how ordinary a lot of recent signings have been, with the odd exception of course :-

Top Five Long Serving : 5 players, 158 appearances (32.00 average)
Kuyt/Torres/Riera : 3 players, 93 appearances (31.00 average)
Everyone Else : 16 players, 265 appearances (17.00 average)

Note that Kuyt was signed 06/07, Torres 07/08 and Riera 08/09. I've excluded loanees Pennant and Voronin from the "Everyone Else" category. The eight split out into the top two categories aren't enough to make an XI, so the rest were bound to make a lot of appearances between them to make an XI plus subs. We've played 40 games this season, those five oldest serving players have played 80% between them, lowered by Hyypia playing less these days or it would be 35.50 average and therefore around 89% of all games this season.

I can't be bothered to find out how to add a quick graph I did of the order signed against appearances made, but the trendline dips from around 29 at the right to around 12 on the left ie indicates the longer serving the more appearances made - and quite significantly so by a dip of around 17.

[lakes10]

So what you are saying that all the money Rafa has spent in the last two years has been on lol.



Great Stats by the way, you never let us down.

[Effes]

Appreciate the time you've put into this Owzat.

So in the last 2 years we've signed:

13. 01/07/07 Leiva Lucas (25)
13. 01/07/07 Charles Itandje (0)
13. 01/07/07 Andrei Voronin (0) - on loan
16. 04/07/07 Fernando Torres (26)
17. 12/07/07 Yossi Benayoun (30)
18. 13/07/07 Ryan Babel (31)
19. 01/08/07 Emilo Insua (7)
20. 31/08/07 Damien Plessis (5)
21. 11/01/08 Martin Skrtel (19)
22. 03/07/08 Phillipe Degen (2)
23. 04/07/08 Andrea Dossena (23)
24. 11/07/08 Diego Cavalieri (4)
25. 24/07/08 David N'Gog (11)
26. 31/08/08 Albert Riera (31)

13 player, with 4 (Bennayoun, Torres, Skrtel, Riera) being first 11 regulars.

The other 9 were cheap or on loan, besides Babel and Dossena (£18M in total).
So, despite only providing 4 regulars it could be argued that he hasn't wasted too much?

Not sure the stats show anything conclusive?

What do you conclude from this Owz? You haven't really said in your post.

[bigmick]

What about Keane Eff? Maybe someone can run that "we only lost 1 million on the deal" equation by me again, I've never understood it yet .

[Effes]

What about Keane Eff? Maybe someone can run that "we only lost 1 million on the deal" equation by me again, I've never understood it yet .

It's a bit like that brain teaser - 3 blokes book into a hotel, pay too much at reception, then the porter goes to their room to give them their money, divdes it among them, he gets a fiver, where's the £2 (or however it goes, of course this will seem like an inane ramble if you've never heard of it) 

[lakes10]

What about Keane Eff? Maybe someone can run that "we only lost 1 million on the deal" equation by me again, I've never understood it yet .

The Kean deal is a strange one, when all the money is sorted out from both deals (dont forget we still had not given spurs all the money in the first place) we would not has lost or made any money from the deal, Spurs would also not made or lost money from the deal, both side set money aside from the deals and the intrest on that money covered any money lost.

[bigmick]

No I know the one mate In this version, we pay 20 million quid for a striker but only pay a portion of it off. They agree to take him back for 15 million or 12 million depending on who you believe. Now in my book, that means there's a difference of either 5 million or 8 million quid. Because though we've only so far paid 10 million, and they owe us 5, then we add on the 20 which we paid, take away what they paid and take that off the five, we break even, or something like that I can never get my head round it.

If I'd have been Spurs, this is what I would have done. I'd have said look, you paid 20 million quid. We are giving you 12 back, so out of the whole transaction you need to give us 8 million quid and we're squits. Given you've already paid us 10, we'll give you back your 2 million quid change, and we'll take Keane off your hands. It would have been much simpler that way, and it would have all balanced out. As it is, somehow we're millions and million of pounds better off than we would have been if they'd used my system. Come to think of it, we should get Parry back if he brokered that deal. Fecking genius it was, like feeding 5000 people with a couple of tuna sandwiches.

All that said, there is another possibility. Perhaps in reality the people went hungry, the theory is b0ll0cks and we spunked either 5 million or 8 million quid.

It's definately a toughie trying to work it out.

[112-1077774096]

its not hard mick, we signed him for 20, we paid 12 so we still owed 8.

we then sold him for 15, out of that 15 we still owed 8, this leaves 7 to us from spuds. Add this 8 that we owed to the 12 that we had already paid and that adds up to 20, we got 15 back so we lost 5 million

[kazza]

It was never 20 million Mick it was 17.5 million taking it to (shy of) 20 million with the add-ons. These add-ons(appearance and performance) were never invoked as he never appeared enough or performed enough. We then sold him for (?) but with add-ons taking the deal to 16.5 million. So the deal is not fulfilled until the add-ons are  (probably next year) That is how we will lose only a million, it is all about the add-ons. We did not pay the add-ons and they probably will.

I still think 16.5 million for Keane is too much.

[lakes10]

No I know the one mate In this version, we pay 20 million quid for a striker but only pay a portion of it off. They agree to take him back for 15 million or 12 million depending on who you believe. Now in my book, that means there's a difference of either 5 million or 8 million quid. Because though we've only so far paid 10 million, and they owe us 5, then we add on the 20 which we paid, take away what they paid and take that off the five, we break even, or something like that I can never get my head round it.

If I'd have been Spurs, this is what I would have done. I'd have said look, you paid 20 million quid. We are giving you 12 back, so out of the whole transaction you need to give us 8 million quid and we're squits. Given you've already paid us 10, we'll give you back your 2 million quid change, and we'll take Keane off your hands. It would have been much simpler that way, and it would have all balanced out. As it is, somehow we're millions and million of pounds better off than we would have been if they'd used my system. Come to think of it, we should get Parry back if he brokered that deal. Fecking genius it was, like feeding 5000 people with a couple of tuna sandwiches.

All that said, there is another possibility. Perhaps in reality the people went hungry, the theory is b0ll0cks and we spunked either 5 million or 8 million quid.

It's definately a toughie trying to work it out.

lol yep and we dont have the time or the brains to do that.

[Rockthekop]

Appreciate the time you've put into this Owzat.

So in the last 2 years we've signed:

13. 01/07/07 Leiva Lucas (25)
13. 01/07/07 Charles Itandje (0)
13. 01/07/07 Andrei Voronin (0) - on loan
16. 04/07/07 Fernando Torres (26)
17. 12/07/07 Yossi Benayoun (30)
18. 13/07/07 Ryan Babel (31)
19. 01/08/07 Emilo Insua (7)
20. 31/08/07 Damien Plessis (5)
21. 11/01/08 Martin Skrtel (19)
22. 03/07/08 Phillipe Degen (2)
23. 04/07/08 Andrea Dossena (23)
24. 11/07/08 Diego Cavalieri (4)
25. 24/07/08 David N'Gog (11)
26. 31/08/08 Albert Riera (31)

13 player, with 4 (Bennayoun, Torres, Skrtel, Riera) being first 11 regulars.

The other 9 were cheap or on loan, besides Babel and Dossena (£18M in total).
So, despite only providing 4 regulars it could be argued that he hasn't wasted too much?

Not sure the stats show anything conclusive?

What do you conclude from this Owz? You haven't really said in your post.

Don't forget Lucas was 6m, so theres 24m which would have bought a top quality player.

Rafa has wasted millions buying lots of average players rather than spending it on fewer quality players.  It's no surprise that we are STILL lacking quality in several positions.  It's temporary fix after temporary fix and we aren't getting anywhere.

In fairness though he has bought some top players but we need more of the same in wide positions and up front.

[Salty Sock]

Inspirational insight Owzat. You enforce your opinion with great fact. I like it, great input
I can't believe you go so far to even consider making a graph.. that would be amazing. Your football analyse mind is brilleant, you should invest all your shanks deep into it!!

[simolonge]

Appreciate the time you've put into this Owzat.

So in the last 2 years we've signed:

13. 01/07/07 Leiva Lucas (25)
13. 01/07/07 Charles Itandje (0)
13. 01/07/07 Andrei Voronin (0) - on loan
16. 04/07/07 Fernando Torres (26)
17. 12/07/07 Yossi Benayoun (30)
18. 13/07/07 Ryan Babel (31)
19. 01/08/07 Emilo Insua (7)
20. 31/08/07 Damien Plessis (5)
21. 11/01/08 Martin Skrtel (19)
22. 03/07/08 Phillipe Degen (2)
23. 04/07/08 Andrea Dossena (23)
24. 11/07/08 Diego Cavalieri (4)
25. 24/07/08 David N'Gog (11)
26. 31/08/08 Albert Riera (31)

13 player, with 4 (Bennayoun, Torres, Skrtel, Riera) being first 11 regulars.

The other 9 were cheap or on loan, besides Babel and Dossena (£18M in total).
So, despite only providing 4 regulars it could be argued that he hasn't wasted too much?

Not sure the stats show anything conclusive?

What do you conclude from this Owz? You haven't really said in your post.

Don't forget Lucas was 6m, so theres 24m which would have bought a top quality player.

Yes, but left us with little or nothing on the left hand side of out team ?

[Rockthekop]

Of all the signings Rafa has made since he arrived, how many players have actually improved our first team?

Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Mash, Alonso, Torres

The rest are squad players at best and some never good enough to start with.

Rafa has bought more donuts than croissants.

[Bad Bob]

Rafa has had bought more donuts than croissants.

Never heard that one before and don't know if it's a common expression on your side of the Atlantic.  In these parts, however, that would be high praise for Rafa.   Mmmmm, donuts!