Liverpool FC Forum

[metalhead]

There's been some confusion in other posts with folks stuck on the owners selling players to make money. Let me explain the strategy of club ownership in as few words as possible.

1. The owners do not make money from selling players, they save money both in terms of having a kitty to make adjustments elsewhere and less of a call on cashflow.
2.  The owners make their money from the VALUE of the CLUB not selling players, ie the business.
3. We built a new main stand, we have more sponsors, we are making more match day revenue, we're making more tv money all this adds to the value of the club. The players are simply the tool to raise the value of the club by creating more revenue opportunities.
4. The club reaches a plateau of effectiveness - tv income, sponsorship income, match day income etc.. until the team success propels us to a higher level of play/excitement/interest.
5. To do this we need the right manager, funds and decent players. And prawn sandwiches. The owners aren't stupid.
6. So behind the scenes Barca say to LFC 'we'll give you 143m for Couts' LFC say 'we'll have to make a dance of it but yes you can have him' and lock in Keita, VVD, Mo and the Ox. FSG ask Klopp what else he needs, he says probably a keeper but he's ok for now.
7. The team  and Mo do well and we're suddenly in the 'high interest' end of football - BINGO - sign new sponsorship deals, talk of the new Annie Road, Champions League revenue - the VALUE of the CLUB increases - owners happy, owners say to Klopp 'we need to keep this going, give Mo a new contract and speak with Dortmund or PSG to buy who you need to ensure we maintain this level and don't slip back'.
7. So the owners angle is now to give Klopp whatever he needs to win the league next season to maintain the growth in revenue and the value of the club.
8. Selling players for profit is not on the agenda unless dickwad Madrid come in with 200 for MO and Klopp says we can still maintain growth potential (haha that made you squirm) without him because he has another discovery lined up.

It's simple. The more we grow the value of the club, the more Klopp will have to spend, the better the playesr we'll bring in and hopefully the more successful we'll be. Easy.

All stand.

Hi reg!

You're spot on. The problem is a lot of fans are kind of naive when it comes to understanding how businesses operate. They think that taking loans or using intercompany loans are evil things because they expect owners to use personal money to invest, which never happens anywhere in the world, well at least in 2018!! A lot are still stuck in the past when owning a football club was more about passion and football and less about the business. I'm sorry to say but the truth is today clubs are businesses and if you don't manage your business properly you will put your club at risk of financial distress. We stagnated under Moores because he had no idea how to take the club forward in terms of revenues while clubs like Manchester United overhauled their business model and structure to keep up with the trends of the 90s and the early 2000s, that's why they were able to spend money bringing good players and expanding their stadium to a 75k seater stadium! With Moores we had a business model that is so outdated that even John Henry was shocked to see how it operated when he bought the club in 2010.

FSG are not and will never be the Abu Dhabi group of Man City, they don't have as much capital as they and probably never will, but all I know that FSG are a strong sports investment group with a track record of success in racing and baseball, so their idea is to have LFC successful in the long term.

Even Roman Abramovic doesn't give Chelsea his own cash just because he loves the club, he loaned Chelsea a lot of money to buy players and he is asking those money back with high interest! It's how it works.

[metalhead]

The club is worth considerably more than what FSG paid and rather than one in one out policy why not use that increased wealth to stretch out and build on what Klopps done already, have a right go at it.

On paper it wasn't because we were in the brink of administration.

Our assets were outdated and our debts were really high. FSG took a calculated risk and now it's paying off because they knew how to improve it and get it back on its feet. Something that H&G failed to do big time.

You need to have responsible owners.

[johnbarnes]

There's been some confusion in other posts with folks stuck on the owners selling players to make money. Let me explain the strategy of club ownership in as few words as possible.

1. The owners do not make money from selling players, they save money both in terms of having a kitty to make adjustments elsewhere and less of a call on cashflow.
2.  The owners make their money from the VALUE of the CLUB not selling players, ie the business.
3. We built a new main stand, we have more sponsors, we are making more match day revenue, we're making more tv money all this adds to the value of the club. The players are simply the tool to raise the value of the club by creating more revenue opportunities.
4. The club reaches a plateau of effectiveness - tv income, sponsorship income, match day income etc.. until the team success propels us to a higher level of play/excitement/interest.
5. To do this we need the right manager, funds and decent players. And prawn sandwiches. The owners aren't stupid.
6. So behind the scenes Barca say to LFC 'we'll give you 143m for Couts' LFC say 'we'll have to make a dance of it but yes you can have him' and lock in Keita, VVD, Mo and the Ox. FSG ask Klopp what else he needs, he says probably a keeper but he's ok for now.
7. The team  and Mo do well and we're suddenly in the 'high interest' end of football - BINGO - sign new sponsorship deals, talk of the new Annie Road, Champions League revenue - the VALUE of the CLUB increases - owners happy, owners say to Klopp 'we need to keep this going, give Mo a new contract and speak with Dortmund or PSG to buy who you need to ensure we maintain this level and don't slip back'.
7. So the owners angle is now to give Klopp whatever he needs to win the league next season to maintain the growth in revenue and the value of the club.
8. Selling players for profit is not on the agenda unless dickwad Madrid come in with 200 for MO and Klopp says we can still maintain growth potential (haha that made you squirm) without him because he has another discovery lined up.

It's simple. The more we grow the value of the club, the more Klopp will have to spend, the better the playesr we'll bring in and hopefully the more successful we'll be. Easy.

All stand.

[metalhead]

The club is worth considerably more than what FSG paid and rather than one in one out policy why not use that increased wealth to stretch out and build on what Klopps done already, have a right go at it.

What has the value of the club got to do with how much is available for transfers (assuming that's what you were getting at)? What money is out there that is being kept away from transfers or wages?

Exactly, value of the club has nothing to do with transfer availability, but it has to do a lot with what we generate in terms of revenue. If you make 500m of revenue a year then you have more purchasing power than another who makes 350m a year in revs.

[maguskwt]

that's all well and good... but in the mean time just win some feckin trophies... do you want to be an elite club that wins trophies or do you just want to be a sustainable business? Ok maybe they needed 7 years to make the club a sustainable high earning business, but now it is time to win some feckin trophies... and if they don't move on to that another level, maybe they are not the right owners for the long run...

[7_Kewell]

There's been some confusion in other posts with folks stuck on the owners selling players to make money. Let me explain the strategy of club ownership in as few words as possible.

1. The owners do not make money from selling players, they save money both in terms of having a kitty to make adjustments elsewhere and less of a call on cashflow.
2.  The owners make their money from the VALUE of the CLUB not selling players, ie the business.
3. We built a new main stand, we have more sponsors, we are making more match day revenue, we're making more tv money all this adds to the value of the club. The players are simply the tool to raise the value of the club by creating more revenue opportunities.
4. The club reaches a plateau of effectiveness - tv income, sponsorship income, match day income etc.. until the team success propels us to a higher level of play/excitement/interest.
5. To do this we need the right manager, funds and decent players. And prawn sandwiches. The owners aren't stupid.
6. So behind the scenes Barca say to LFC 'we'll give you 143m for Couts' LFC say 'we'll have to make a dance of it but yes you can have him' and lock in Keita, VVD, Mo and the Ox. FSG ask Klopp what else he needs, he says probably a keeper but he's ok for now.
7. The team  and Mo do well and we're suddenly in the 'high interest' end of football - BINGO - sign new sponsorship deals, talk of the new Annie Road, Champions League revenue - the VALUE of the CLUB increases - owners happy, owners say to Klopp 'we need to keep this going, give Mo a new contract and speak with Dortmund or PSG to buy who you need to ensure we maintain this level and don't slip back'.
7. So the owners angle is now to give Klopp whatever he needs to win the league next season to maintain the growth in revenue and the value of the club.
8. Selling players for profit is not on the agenda unless dickwad Madrid come in with 200 for MO and Klopp says we can still maintain growth potential (haha that made you squirm) without him because he has another discovery lined up.

It's simple. The more we grow the value of the club, the more Klopp will have to spend, the better the playesr we'll bring in and hopefully the more successful we'll be. Easy.

All stand.

What a post. Spot on Reg.

[eds]

that's all well and good... but in the mean time just win some feckin trophies... do you want to be an elite club that wins trophies or do you just want to be a sustainable business? Ok maybe they needed 7 years to make the club a sustainable high earning business, but now it is time to win some feckin trophies... and if they don't move on to that another level, maybe they are not the right owners for the long run...

No point arguing logic to the cultists Mags.

FSG have done an absoulate number on these types of “fans”, who now define success purely based on financial metrics off the field and not the obvious, trophies won.

Watch them pop the champagne corks when we sell Salah for a world record profit as we keep “growing” the club. What ever the f**k that means?!?

It’s a sad indictment of our club, aspirations and these so called supporters that have drank the FSG kool aid.

[7_Kewell]

that's all well and good... but in the mean time just win some feckin trophies... do you want to be an elite club that wins trophies or do you just want to be a sustainable business? Ok maybe they needed 7 years to make the club a sustainable high earning business, but now it is time to win some feckin trophies... and if they don't move on to that another level, maybe they are not the right owners for the long run...

No point arguing logic to the cultists Mags.

FSG have done an absoulate number on these types of “fans”, who now define success purely based on financial metrics off the field and not the obvious, trophies won.

Watch them pop the champagne corks when we sell Salah for a world record profit as we keep “growing” the club. What ever the f**k that means?!?

It’s a sad indictment of our club, aspirations and these so called supporters that have drank the FSG kool aid.

Do you consider this a bad season?

[maguskwt]

that's all well and good... but in the mean time just win some feckin trophies... do you want to be an elite club that wins trophies or do you just want to be a sustainable business? Ok maybe they needed 7 years to make the club a sustainable high earning business, but now it is time to win some feckin trophies... and if they don't move on to that another level, maybe they are not the right owners for the long run...

No point arguing logic to the cultists Mags.

FSG have done an absoulate number on these types of “fans”, who now define success purely based on financial metrics off the field and not the obvious, trophies won.

Watch them pop the champagne corks when we sell Salah for a world record profit as we keep “growing” the club. What ever the f**k that means?!?

It’s a sad indictment of our club, aspirations and these so called supporters that have drank the FSG kool aid.

Do you consider this a bad season?

I have 3 scenarios for this question.
If we finish 3rd (likely) in the league and do not progress in the CL, I'd consider this a bang average season. Even though I do admit that in view of Klopp's team building we have made progress by finishing top 4 in the league in successive seasons.
If we finish top 4 (2-4) and win the CL, I'd consider this a very successful season for obvious reasons.
If we finish 2nd and progress to CL final, I'd consider this a good season for showing much progress.

Under Rafa, and Houllier, top 4 is a norm and now we are supposed to be grateful and say "yeeea it's not too bad, we are top 4".

Look, A football club is a business as well as a football club. We cannot forget that it is STILL a football club. And LFC is one with global fame, tradition, of competing, winning trophies, of being one of those elite european clubs. Yes, I agree that being financial strong is necessary, a good foundation to chase for success on the field. But success on the field MUST NOT be forgotten. At this point in time, selling your best player to grow the business is just a wrong strategy. It is taking a step forward and 2 steps back. Why? For one, we are having a reputation as a selling club. Two, players who join us sees us as a stepping stone. Three, your team's growth suffers tremendously. Four, it is not that easy to find world class players. Five, how long will the re-build take? one or two more seasons to consider a top 4 finish and no trophies as a 'success'? one or two more seasons to say we are still in a re-building stage? Six, how long will Klopp's patience last before he says "Feck it, I'm going back to Germany and coaching Bayern Munich or the national team. If Klopp leaves, I tell you we are well and truly fecked.

The longer we go on without wining trophies and selling our best players, the more we go down this path where Arsenal is.

[eds]

Preach it Mags, preach it.

Trophies won will ALWAYS dictate success.

Not revenue, not sustainability, not profit and loss statements.

We are supporters of a Football Club, not shareholders in a business!

[johnbarnes]

Preach it Mags, preach it.

Trophies won will ALWAYS dictate success.

Not revenue, not sustainability, not profit and loss statements.

We are supporters of a Football Club, not shareholders in a business!

Success is a preconceived notion of the individual.
Defeat can proved to be more successful than victory if one chooses to believe this philosophy!
When we lost to both Sevilla and $hitie in Cup Finals, one can argue strongly that both defeats are now proving to be the reason why we are now awaiting to play a CL 2 leg 1/4 final against $hitie.
---
In the modern era of football, a CL 1/4 Final can be viewed as important than winning either the League Cup or winning the Europa Cup... And it is only the latter than now has a real value attached to it, as the winner now plays in the CL the following season.
---
As an LFC fan I can define success very easy because I lived through the golden years - when success was a known given fact.
Life doesn't change - Life's cycle change.
---
IMO the life cycle of LFC is on the change... Towards success.

[Ghost of Shankly]

Our clubs progress is still way behind Manchester Utd in terms of increasing revenue. They make 1m+ per game, more than us, just in matchday ticket sales. Revenues of 500m, ours is about 300m.
Selling our players is also part of the business model, as they are expendable assets. Just selling Coutinho alone would have paid for the cost of the new main stand (100m).
But investing in the team is the most important issue, as success on the pitch links directly to our ticket sales/revenues and sponsorship Deals etc.
Selling top players gives you a chunk of cash to balance the books, but you still have to invest to replace your sold players at market value.

Football has always been a results business. We have been stagnant for years. We haven't won the league, the league cup, FA Cup or champions league for years. Until that changes, our financial success is also limited.
We can expand the Annie Road end for 50-100m yes. But that won't guarantee success either.

Investing in the team is what guarantees success, strength and depth and keeping hold of your best players. Success on the pitch is DIRECTLY linked to financial success, as the mancs showed when they won the league consistently, they increased capacity, increased worldwide turnover, brand awareness etc etc.

I doubt FSG will bankrupt the club either, paying over 100m for players either. Finding bargains like salah for 38m is probably the best option.

How are the owners going to solve the puzzle of us winning the league again!!?? Some one answer me that.

[Ghost of Shankly]

There's been some confusion in other posts with folks stuck on the owners selling players to make money. Let me explain the strategy of club ownership in as few words as possible.

1. The owners do not make money from selling players, they save money both in terms of having a kitty to make adjustments elsewhere and less of a call on cashflow.
2.  The owners make their money from the VALUE of the CLUB not selling players, ie the business.
3. We built a new main stand, we have more sponsors, we are making more match day revenue, we're making more tv money all this adds to the value of the club. The players are simply the tool to raise the value of the club by creating more revenue opportunities.
4. The club reaches a plateau of effectiveness - tv income, sponsorship income, match day income etc.. until the team success propels us to a higher level of play/excitement/interest.
5. To do this we need the right manager, funds and decent players. And prawn sandwiches. The owners aren't stupid.
6. So behind the scenes Barca say to LFC 'we'll give you 143m for Couts' LFC say 'we'll have to make a dance of it but yes you can have him' and lock in Keita, VVD, Mo and the Ox. FSG ask Klopp what else he needs, he says probably a keeper but he's ok for now.
7. The team  and Mo do well and we're suddenly in the 'high interest' end of football - BINGO - sign new sponsorship deals, talk of the new Annie Road, Champions League revenue - the VALUE of the CLUB increases - owners happy, owners say to Klopp 'we need to keep this going, give Mo a new contract and speak with Dortmund or PSG to buy who you need to ensure we maintain this level and don't slip back'.
7. So the owners angle is now to give Klopp whatever he needs to win the league next season to maintain the growth in revenue and the value of the club.
8. Selling players for profit is not on the agenda unless dickwad Madrid come in with 200 for MO and Klopp says we can still maintain growth potential (haha that made you squirm) without him because he has another discovery lined up.

It's simple. The more we grow the value of the club, the more Klopp will have to spend, the better the playesr we'll bring in and hopefully the more successful we'll be. Easy.

All stand.

So let me just clarify, I might be slightly confused.....

How much experience do you have of running football clubs again!?

FFS Every man and his dog thinks they are a football guru expert.

[johnbarnes]

I have 3 scenarios for this question.
If we finish 3rd (likely) in the league and do not progress in the CL, I'd consider this a bang average season. Even though I do admit that in view of Klopp's team building we have made progress by finishing top 4 in the league in successive seasons.
If we finish top 4 (2-4) and win the CL, I'd consider this a very successful season for obvious reasons.
If we finish 2nd and progress to CL final, I'd consider this a good season for showing much progress.

Under Rafa, and Houllier, top 4 is a norm and now we are supposed to be grateful and say "yeeea it's not too bad, we are top 4".

Look, A football club is a business as well as a football club. We cannot forget that it is STILL a football club. And LFC is one with global fame, tradition, of competing, winning trophies, of being one of those elite european clubs. Yes, I agree that being financial strong is necessary, a good foundation to chase for success on the field. But success on the field MUST NOT be forgotten. At this point in time, selling your best player to grow the business is just a wrong strategy who's that then? . It is taking a step forward and 2 steps back. Why? For one, we are having a reputation as a selling club. Two, players who join us sees us as a stepping stone. Three, your team's growth suffers tremendously. Four, it is not that easy to find world class players. Five, how long will the re-build take? one or two more seasons to consider a top 4 finish and no trophies as a 'success'? one or two more seasons to say we are still in a re-building stage? Six, how long will Klopp's patience last before he says "Feck it, I'm going back to Germany and coaching Bayern Munich or the national team. If Klopp leaves, I tell you we are well and truly fecked.

The longer we go on without wining trophies and selling our best players, the more we go down this path where Arsenal is.[/quote]


Your 3 scenarios read like a spoilt child who won't get what they want for Christmas, despite the fact it's only March 
Your only consideration at this time should be:
LFC are still fighting for the CL title with as good a chance of winning it as any team left in the tournament. A 1/4 final spot proves this.
YET YOU AND OTHERS STILL MOAN!
Why not wish that we lose to $hitie just so you can prove that 1 of your 3 scenarios were correct?
PLEASE, take your fortune cookie and crystal ball and wish for us to WIN the CL THIS SEASON instead!
---
Under RAFA as you wrote it:
FACT:
Manchester City 2004-5 season finished 8th
Manchester City 2005-6 season finished 15th
Then a steady decline out of Englands Premier Football League
REALLY SUCCESSFUL!

Chel$ea - WIN THE LOTTERY! (and later Man $hitie)
Yet despite being able to buy the whole football world and any players it desired. Still could not beat RAFA’s men over 2 legs!

FACT:
MONEY has changed football and certain teams position in the Premier League. Not the buying or selling of any LFC player.
---
That said. The only thing you wrote which I can agree with is the manager. WHY, because the prove of LFC's 'successes' have ALWAYS been under a STRONG managerial leadership.
KLOPP is pivotal to the future success of LFC. The same can be said of Pep, Maureen and Pochettino!
THIS can always be said of any club, during any time period...
STRONG manager + STRONG players bring success - NOT just STRONG players
---
If 'we' could accuse LFC of one thing in the last 5 years, was to allow the  Spuds to now be mixing it up with the BIG BOYS!
BUT this is also the failings of Arsenal and Manure. WHY? Because we along with the other two are the real brothers of my brother keep.
FACT: Based on the cycle of time and success.
---
So the next time you watch SKY Sports and they talk about THE BIG 6... Please have the common decency and respect to yell at the TV whilst kicking the dog and say FECK-OFF, TOP 6 MY *****!   
---
MONEY has created the so called TOP 6
NOT SUCCESS.

[Reg]

So let me just clarify, I might be slightly confused.....

How much experience do you have of running football clubs again!?

FFS Every man and his dog thinks they are a football guru expert.

I don't pretend to run a football club but I do know how to look at a business and understand how to create value. If I owned LFC you wouldn't like me any more than you do FSG.