Liverpool FC Forum

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Last night Hamann was saying that he thought the reason we do so much better in Europe than domestically is the style of play of European football, with the emphasis on good passing rather than the hardwork and commitment of the Prem.

I had put it down to a lack of motivation myself. Foreign players who could rise to the occasion when it was a big European night failing to respond when we play "lesser matches" in the Prem or domestic cups.

The thing that makes me think I am probably on the right lines is that when we play our rivals in the "big cup games" we seem to play well and win, when we play them in the league we seem to struggle and even when on occasion we are the better team somehow manage to lose. Luck or a missing ingredient (motivation) to give that little bit extra that is the difference between success and failure.

I don't want to get into the whole Rafa's man management argument, I was just wondering is it style or motivation or perhaps a combination of many things that sees us struggle against lesser lights but crush the best Europe has to offer?

[Leonmc0708]

Fair points from both the Kaiser and yourself.

I think we lack a couple (or at least one) older head who knows when to stand on the ball in those games against the dour sides. A Gary Mac or the like.

[RUSHIE#9]

I think it's a fair point to say a combination of the two.

It's pretty clear that Rafa is more adept/comfortable at setting up for a European game than a league or cup game on a cold Saturday against your Wigans and Barnsleys of this world.
At the same time you can see that a few of the players are more willing to get themselves up and motivated for the big crunch European and domestic cup games than just a bog standard league encounter. Whether or not this can be put down to a poor mentality on the players part thinking that it doesn't matter if they lose cos they can make the points up elsewhere could be one reason I suppose.

[stmichael]

One of the reasons is that teams give us more time and space in Europe, and we have good players who will always perform better because of that. In the league, you have yard-dogs kicking you all game and we still can't handle it. That's why we can't break down Birmingham, Wigan, Barnsley etc but we can Inter, Porto, Besiktas etc.


I think there's more to it than just having space and time though. I mean Arsenal and United's players are even more comfortable on the ball, yet once Christmas passes they struggle in the knock-out stages of the Champions League year after year. Rafa is clearly more tactically adept in Europe than Ferguson or Wenger.

Completely different discplines, and Rafa's mastered one but still struggles with the other.

[Sabre]

Motivation is much more important than rotation. As in tons of more importance. As comparing a sand dust to a mountain.

2 things I've read as of late has worried me, 1, Torres commenting that you can notice when there are European games even in the training. Well Torres, it must be seen also in the training pitch that we want the league.

Second, am I right if I yesterday I read somewhere that Rafa says that now who enters the team is because they won it?

It should have been that way always. Rotation is only for the players who deserve to play because they train well and/or play well. If Alonso isn't at his best or giving his best, he shouldn't enter rotations, that is.

Motivation is fundamental. Make no mistake Internazionale is a great team, and to beat them you need to be a good team. To beat them in the last 5 minutes you have to be well physically aswell. Their bench was scaring, but their starting eleven was great, good midfielders, a very good set pieces taker (Stankovic), Materazzi who's but a very good player. My point? Reaching CL finals is not in the hands of just anybody. You need a good managers, and also players like Gerrard, Reina, Mascherano, Alonso. Rafa needs to find a method to motivate the players for the league.

If the players only seem to be motivated 100% in european games, then tell them that he who doesn't perform in the league won't play the CL, end of. We can afford that policy in the qualification phases.

[stmichael]

i think the crowd plays a big part as well. it's always rocking on european nights and the kop almost sucks the ball into the goal at times. the league games these days are flat as a pancake.

[Big Niall]

I think that we find it hard to break down teams who pack their defense and want a draw (5 minutes away from draw last night, thankfully ten men tire faster than 11) as most CL teams are decent they fancy that they can give it a go which suits LFC more.

Also, when we play a slightly weakened team against the lesser sides, we find out that our fringe players are not that good, if you take SG and Torres out then we struggle against anyone. I think also that sending out a weakened team is a signal to the players that this game isn't that important.

Maybe a lack of belief that we can win the league and a belief that we're bound to finish top four (dodgy) also leads to a loss of motivation.

[Bad Bob]

Didn't Torres say in his recent interview as well that the players were too casual against Barnsley and didn't kill the game?  That certainly is a motivation problem.

I'm not saying that they are consciously taking the p!ss when they play "lesser" teams--more that they aren't quite as mentally committed.  When you play a team like Inter or Chelsea the other week, you know that one mistake will kill you and that you must score from the 2-3 half chances that come your way in those big games.  Naturally, players concentrate more under those circumstances.  Against the likes of Barnsley, I think there's a danger of thinking: "well, these are pretty poor footballers.  We'll get lots of opportunities and even if they score 1, we'll get it back and then some."  When you adopt that mentality, you're leaving yourself open to a sucker punch.

Now, that's on the players side but what about Rafa?  I, frankly, detest the notion that he only cares about Europe.  The man is a competitor and clearly wants to win every game.  What seems to let him down, as Big Mick has suggested in another thread, is that he can approach the big matches with utter concentration and careful attention to detail but, perhaps, he tends to look past the ho-hum matches to the next big match on the horizon.  That's not to say that his tactics are shoddy for small games and let the players down (although he is often at his most "experimental" with line-ups and esp. formations when big matches loom on the horizon).  Rather, it sends the message to the players that it is acceptable to go into a match with Barnsley with one eye on the Inter clash midweek.  We've always had that problem under Rafa, if I'm honest.  Maybe it's a product of his meticulousness.  Perhaps he's been training the players to face Inter for weeks and that means that the intervening league and cup matches are put on the mental back burners.  Again, I don't think it's Rafa consciously dismissing the league or domestic cups.  Rather, it's something more subtle than that, yet something significant all the same.

[LegBarnes]

Didn't Torres say in his recent interview as well that the players were too casual against Barnsley and didn't kill the game?  That certainly is a motivation problem.

I'm not saying that they are consciously taking the p!ss when they play "lesser" teams--more that they aren't quite as mentally committed.  When you play a team like Inter or Chelsea the other week, you know that one mistake will kill you and that you must score from the 2-3 half chances that come your way in those big games.  Naturally, players concentrate more under those circumstances.  Against the likes of Barnsley, I think there's a danger of thinking: "well, these are pretty poor footballers.  We'll get lots of opportunities and even if they score 1, we'll get it back and then some."  When you adopt that mentality, you're leaving yourself open to a sucker punch.

Now, that's on the players side but what about Rafa?  I, frankly, detest the notion that he only cares about Europe.  The man is a competitor and clearly wants to win every game.  What seems to let him down, as Big Mick has suggested in another thread, is that he can approach the big matches with utter concentration and careful attention to detail but, perhaps, he tends to look past the ho-hum matches to the next big match on the horizon.  That's not to say that his tactics are shoddy for small games and let the players down.  Rather, it sends the message to the players that it is acceptable to go into a match with Barnsley with one eye on the Inter clash midweek.  We've always had that problem under Rafa, if I'm honest.  Maybe it's a product of his meticulousness.  Perhaps he's been training the players to face Inter for weeks and that means that the intervening league and cup matches are put on the mental back burners.  Again, I don't think it's Rafa consciously dismissing the league or domestic cups.  Rather, it's something more subtle than that, yet something significant all the same.

yeah i like to see rafa just play 4-2-4 vrs a lower league club and say to the players ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK.

about motivation i think this is a key point with all the tv and stature of the CL rafa dont really have to say much to the players to get them up for it but when it comes down a FA cup game with a champ team this is where a manger with some mouth on him earns his money rafa i feel dont have a dressing room gab.

[LegBarnes]

in fact mabye rafa just needs a 2nd in command with a massive mouth any ideas ?

Mabye Chris Rock

[ConnO'var]

Definitely a combination of both.

Though I would say that I lean a little more to the "style of play" aspect of it.
The slightly slower paced and more methodical and technical nature of European football plays a big part largely due to the fact that pace is not one of the stronger points of the current squad barring a few players of course.

The "hell for leather" approach in premiership matches doesn't quite suit us at the moment and that consequently may affect the motivation of some of the players..... Probably they don't fancy being kicked in the shins too many times I suspect..   

[Big Niall]

Now, that's on the players side but what about Rafa?  I, frankly, detest the notion that he only cares about Europe.  The man is a competitor and clearly wants to win every game.

Wrong!

when losing to Reading didn't he take SG and Torres off? was that an attempt to win that game as you claim or did he surrender in order to keep them fresh for the European game coming up?

[Bad Bob]

Now, that's on the players side but what about Rafa?  I, frankly, detest the notion that he only cares about Europe.  The man is a competitor and clearly wants to win every game.

Wrong!

when losing to Reading didn't he take SG and Torres off? was that an attempt to win that game as you claim or did he surrender in order to keep them fresh for the European game coming up?

I'm not going to defend that decision too much--the formation was a mess that game and the substitutions were definitely not ideal.  That said, I think Rafa was feeling tremendous pressure from the owners at that time (they'd already spoken to Klinsmann by then, if you'll remember) and felt that it was better to ensure that Torres and Gerrard were fit to face Marseille and Man United the following weekend.

[god_bless_john_houlding]

Now, that's on the players side but what about Rafa?  I, frankly, detest the notion that he only cares about Europe.  The man is a competitor and clearly wants to win every game.

Wrong!

when losing to Reading didn't he take SG and Torres off? was that an attempt to win that game as you claim or did he surrender in order to keep them fresh for the European game coming up?

I'm not going to defend that decision too much--the formation was a mess that game and the substitutions were definitely not ideal.  That said, I think Rafa was feeling tremendous pressure from the owners at that time (they'd already spoken to Klinsmann by then, if you'll remember) and felt that it was better to ensure that Torres and Gerrard were fit to face Marseille and Man United the following weekend.

We were still in a reasonable position in the league though bob, lets not forget we were still unbeaten up to that point (if YOU'LL remember  )

I've stated this fact elsewhere on here, the next manager to win the league for Liverpool, including Benitez, won't be sacked no matter how else the season turns out. The fans wouldn't allow them to, and think what you like that the owners don't care, trust me that if the fans are backing the manager then the manager stays. Benitez is the prime example there, the owners were expecting him to walk and were hoping that by saying this the fans would turn on Benitez and give them the chance to get rid of him. The fact that it backfired and the fans went in favour of Benitez is why he kept his job. The owners realised that if they'd sacked him then they would have mutinty on their hands. So they've wisely listened to the fans and kept Benitez.

Now that fans are starting to get uneasy towards Benitez, the owners can probably feel that they wouldn't be turned on by the fans if they sacked Benitez.

So back to the point, Benitez should of tried to win the Reading game rather than think about Marsielle or United. Let's face it these players are fully fit super human beings, they don't need rests for games. 3 days seperating the games is more than enough rest.

[RUSHIE#9]

I think the motivational angle has taken on a new importance today in the wake of Kuyt's comments in the press that he was happy to settle for 1-0 until Stevie G said to keep going for 2-0.
If Kuyt has this kind of mentality then how many of the other squad members (other then Gerrard and probably Carra) are like this?
Does this possibly explain why so many of our games this season have ended in draws were we've taken the lead and then been pegged back?

On a side note I am surprised at the idiocy of this comment. Kuyt has had a tough time of late with poor form and the fans (me included) voicing our belief that he isn't good enough. He scores a couple of goals and starts to improve his standing amongst the supporters and then he shows himself up like this!