Liverpool FC Forum

[aCe']

okay.... seems like every thread at some point gets dragged out of track by talk about money spent and our owners not giving Rafa any sort of cash to spend..etc etc...
Even Rafa spoke about us being ManUtd in spending, which Ferguson denied but anyways... time to finally put this whole thing to bed and i thought we'd have it in a different thread rather than ruining other ongoing threads discussing this matter...

first off ill start with a table showing spending since 1992... this has nothing to do with Rafa before anyone starts typing their reply post now... its just to show things as they are and you make of it as you will i wont even comment on the figures below...

Just want to say, if anyone can spot any inaccuracies in the figures below just let me know and i'll change them if you make a valid point... for now the figures are as good as they come imo...
most are from http://transferleague.co.uk/ but i had to check some of the figures that didnt look right and i have to say they turned out correct.... still, if anyone knows otherwise ill check ..

1992-2010


Net Spend            Purchased                 Sold                           Nett                               Per Season
 
1 Chelsea                £556,690,000            £186,875,000            £369,815,000             £20,545,278
2 Man City             £364,110,000             £80,553,000           £283,557,000            £15,753,167
3 Liverpool             £392,615,000         £180,920,000             £217,695,000             £12,094,167
4 Man Utd             £410,350,000             £275,565,000            £134,785,000                 £7,488,056


**************************

Anyways.... back to our spending under Rafa...

     SPENT                                                      RECIEVED                                 NET

Season 04/05
           
Scott Carson £1,000,000                               El Hadji Diouf £4,000,000   
Fernando Morientes £6,300,000                       Vladimir Smicer Free   
Mauricio Pellegrino Free                                  Stephane Henchoz Free   
Antonio Nunez Swap                                     Chris Butler Free   
Xabi Alonso £10,500,000                                Michael Owen £8,000,000   
Luis Garcia £6,000,000                                   Danny Murphy £2,500,000   
Josemi £2,000,000                                        Markus Babbel Free   
     

Total           £25,800,000                           £14,500,000                           £11,300,000

Season 05/06          
Craig Bellamy £6,000,000                               Calum Woods Signed   
Robbie Fowler Free                                        Bruno Cheyrou Signed   
Daniel Agger £5,800,000                                 Zak Whitbread Free   
David Martin Signed                                       Conal Platt Free   
Nabil El Zhar signed                                        Fernando Morientes £3,000,000   J
an Kromkamp Swap                                        John Welsh Swap   
Paul Anderson Signed                                      Josemi Swap   
Jack Hobbs Signed                                          Mark Smyth Free   
Godwin Antwi Signed                                       Paul Harrison Free   
Peter Crouch £7,000,000                                  Milan Baros £6,500,000   
Mohamed Sissoko £5,600,000                            Ritchie Partridge Signed   
Antonio Barragan £240,000                                Antonio Nunez Signed   
Boudewijn Zenden Free                                     Gregory Vignal Free   
Mark Gonzalez £4,500,000                                 Jon Otsemobor Free   
Jose Reina £6,000,000                                       Mauricio Pellegrino Free   
Total          £35,140,000                                     £9,500,000                                    £25,640,000

Season 06/07         
Lucas Pezzini Leiva £6,000,000                             Danny O'Donnell £100,000   
Francisco Manuel Dura Signed                               Florent Sinama Pongoll £2,700,000   J
avier Mascherano £1,500,000                                Salif Diao Free   
Alvaro Arbeloa £2,600,000                                      Stephen Warnock £1,500,000   
Nabil El Zhar £200,000                                              Darren Potter £250,000   
Dirk Kuyt £9,000,000                                                David Mannix Signed   
Jermaine Pennant £6,700,000                                 Chris Kirkland £3,000,000   
Fabiano Aurelio Free                                                  Jan Kromkamp £1,500,000   
Gabriel Paletta £2,000,000                                      Neil Mellor £250,000       
                                                                               Djimi Traore £2,000,000       
                                                                               Antonio Barragan £680,000         
                                                                               Robbie Foy Free         
                                                                               Carl Medjani Signed         
                                                                            Dietmar Hamann £400,000     
                                                                              Ramon Calliste Free       
                                                                              David Raven Free   
Total       £28,000,000                                              £12,380,000                               £15,620,000

Season 07/08      
Javier Mascherano £17,100,000                                Lee Peltier Signed 
Martin Skrtel £6,000,000                                           Mohamed Sissoko £8,200,000   
Damien Plessis Signed                                                Gabriel Paletta Signed   
Emiliano Insua £1,300,000                                        Robbie Fowler Free   
Ryan Babel £11,500,000                                             Jerzy Dudek Free   
Yossi Benayoun £5,000,000                                      Mark Gonzalez £4,200,000   
Sebastian Leto £1,850,000                                        Craig Bellamy £7,500,000   
Fernando Torres £20,500,000                                   Djibril Cisse £6,000,000   
Charles-Hubert Itandje Signed                                 Boudewijn Zenden Free   
Andrei Voronin Free                                                  Luis Garcia £4,000,000   
Total           £63,250,000                                          £29,900,000                                         £39,350,00

Season 08/09         
Philipp Degen Free                                              Anthony Le Tallec Undisclosed   
Andrea Dossena £7,000,000                              Harry Kewell Free   
Diego Cavalieri £3,500,000                                Peter Crouch £10,000,000   
Robbie Keane £20,300,000                                Danny Gutherie £2,500,000   
Vitor Flora Signed                                                John Arne Riise £4,000,000   
Alberto Riera £8,000,000                                   Scott Carson £3,250,000   
David Ngog £1,500,000                                        Steve Finnan £1,000,000         
                                                                                Robbie Keane £15,000,000   
Total      £40,300,000                                            £35,750,000                                          £4,550,000

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Now for ManUtd because this seems to be the main debate...

Season 08/09     
  Demitar Berbatov £30,750,000                                Ritchie Jones Free 
Zoran Tosic £5,000,000                                               Chris Eagles £1,250,000   
Adem Ljajic £5,000,000       
Ritchie De Laet Undisclosed                                       Michael Lea Free       
                                                                                          Mikel Sylvestre £750,000         
                                                                                         Louis Saha Signed   
Total £40,750,000                                                          £2,000,000                                            £38,750,000             
Season 07/08       
Manucho Signed                                                        Gerard Pique £6,000,000   
Carlos Tevez £10,000,000                                          Kieran Lee Free   
Nani £13,500,000                                                        Phil Bardsley £2,000,000 
Tomasz Kuszczak £2,500,000                                    Ryan Shawcross £1,000,000   
Anderson £15,000,000                                               Adam Eckersley Free   
Owen Hargreaves £17,000,000                                Phil Marsh Free   
Raphael De Silva £2,500,000                                    Gabriel Heinze £8,000,000   
Fabio De Silva £2,600,000                                         Alan Smith £6,000,000   
Rodrigo Possebon Signed                                           Daniel Rose Signed         
                                                                                        Giuseppe Rossi £6,700,000       
                                                                                       Kieran Richardson £5,500,000   
Total £63,100,000                                                              £35,200,000                                          £27,900,000            
Season 06/07         
Michael Carrick £18,600,000                               Tim Howard £3,000,000         
                                                                                   David Jones £1,000,000       
                                                                                    Liam Miller Free       
                                                                                    Paul McShane Free       
                                                                                    Luke Steele Signed       
                                                                                    Ruud van Nistelrooy £10,300,000         
                                                                                    Quinton Fortune Free       
                                                                                   Sylvain Ebanks-Blake £200,000   
Total     £18,600,000                                                   14,500,000                                              £4,100,000           

Season 05/06           
Patrice Evra £5,500,000                                       John  Mikel Obi £12,000,000   
Nemanja Vidic £7,000,000                                  Eddie Johnson Free   
Ben Foster £1,000,000                                         Jonathan Spector £500,000 
Ji-Sung Park £4,000,000                                     Tommy Lee Free   
Edwin Van Der Sar £2,500,000                           Phil Picken Free         
                                                                                 Colin Heath Signed         
                                                                                 Neil Wood Free         
                                                                                David Fox Free         
                                                                                 Roy Keane Free         
                                                                                 Kleberson £2,500,000       
                                                                                 Phil Neville £3,500,000       
                                                                                 Michael Stewart Signed         
                                                                                 Paul Tierney Signed         
                                                                                 David Bellion Undisclosed         
                                                                                Daniel Nardiello Free   
Total    £20,000,000                                               £18,500,000                                                £1,500,000            
Season 04/05          
Florent N'Galula £0                                                    Steven Hogg Free   
Wayne Rooney £27,000,000                                      Ricardo Free   
Giuseppe Rossi £200,000                                           Roy Carroll Free         
                                                                                        David Poole Free 
                                                                                       Eric Djemba-Djemba £1,350,000         
                                                                                       Bojan Djordjic Free       
                                                                                       Diego Forlan £2,000,000         
                                                                                      Luke Chadwick Free         
                                                                                      Nicky Butt £2,500,000       
                                                                                       Mark Lynch Signed   
Total       £27,200,000                                                      £5,850,000                                                £21,350,00



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SOOOO.......

this is how the final thing looks like


Net Spend 04-10               Purchased                       Sold                           Nett                        Per Season   
1 Manchester City           £260,750,000           £49,900,000              £210,850,000              £35,141,667
2 Chelsea                           £266,450,000           £118,300,000           £148,150,000              £24,691,667
3 Liverpool                        £210,990,000           £105,280,000            £125,710,000             £20,951,667
7 Man Utd                         £188,650,000           £161,050,000            £27,600,000               £4,600,000
11 Arsenal                         £112,050,000             £114,820,000          -£2,770,000                  -£461,667


*************************************************

EDIT : Should probably add the 2009 because it figures in the list... going to Edit this as new transfer dealings are done to keep track of the spending......not a big difference in spending so far this summer but anyways....


LIVERPOOL
Season 09/10     
Glen Johnson £18,500,000                                          Sami Hyypiä Free   
Chris Mavinga Signed                                                    Jack Hobbs Signed         
                                                                                           Paul Anderson £250,000       
                                                                                          Sebastian Leto £3,000,000       
                                                                                          Astrit Ajdarevic Free     
                                                                                          Jermaine Pennant Free   
Total      £18,500,000                                                        £3,250,000                                             £15,250,000

MAN UTD
Season 09/10      
Antonio Valencia £16,000,000                                     Cristiano Ronaldo £80,000,000   
Michael Owen Free                                                         Lee Martin £1,500,000   
Gabriel Obertan £3,000,000                                          Fraizer Campbell £3,500,000   
Mame Biram Diouf undisclosed                                    Richard Eckersley Tribunal         
                                                                                             Manucho undisclosed   
Total £19,000,000                                                               £85,000,000                                    -- £66,000,000

[tubby]

But Fergie had most of his squad in place when Rafa first arrived. Rafa has had to rebuild the entire team. ANway not sure if you read these in the other thread but they are relevant. Plus you could have just bumped the 'how much have we really spent' thread

TOMKINS: FERGUSON IS WRONG

Thankfully, most media outlets seem to have seen the massive inaccuracy in Alex Ferguson's figures relating to Liverpool's spending.
That he should even choose to come out with such figures in the first place is interesting, given his rather undignified reaction to Rafa's 'fact' press conference a couple of months back.

I'm also still smiling over his 'we were the better side' comments following their total humiliation last week, which every neutral I've spoken to found hilarious. That United played so well was obviously the reason Old Trafford was so empty in the last 10 minutes. He's also had a pop by excluding Rafa's name from the best managers in the league, which seems a bit childish for a pensioner.

You can't argue with Ferguson's success as a manager, but you can with some of the things he says.

This season may be a learning curve for Liverpool, with the league United's to lose even before their two main rivals were drawn against each other in the Champions League (which yet means the teams aspiring to catch United play each other in titanic, exhausting battles, as seen with Chelsea and Arsenal facing Liverpool last season while United get the easy draw.)

But the United manager is clearly worried, particularly as stability has been put in place at Anfield regarding the manager's future.

That the United manager should already be talking about Liverpool's future spending is fascinating. Why do so, unless he's worried?

Ferguson talks about the young players United have signed, and bizarrely says that Rafa, a man who started out in youth development, does things differently.

Perhaps Torres, Reina, Alonso, Mascherano, Agger, Lucas, Babel and Skrtel weren't all young players – aged 20-23 – when Rafa signed them after all, and all the teenage talent brought to the club, including Insua, Nemeth, Pacheco, Plessis and Ngog, is just a mirage?

How many players in their 30s has Rafa brought to the club? I can't think of one before or after Pellegrino, at 33, in 2005. Nor one as old as Henrik Larsson or Edwin van der Sar.

Robbie Keane was the oldest major signing Benítez has made, and perhaps the fact that he turns 29 this summer was why he was shipped out so quickly; at that age, if it doesn't look like it's working, you can't bide your time, particularly if a good offer comes in before the age-related depreciation takes place.

But the major flaw in Ferguson's argument is the fact that he already had half of his squad in place in 2004 when Rafa arrived.

He hasn't needed to rebuild an entire squad from scratch, merely add the £15m-£30m adornments. Rafa has clearly had to deal in quantity to cover all positions, but Ferguson has had the luxury of looking solely at quality.

So the two situations are poles apart. Ferguson had already spent big on players like Rio Ferdinand before Rafa pitched up.

He already had the players who emerged because of his youth system, which took almost seven years to bear fruit beyond one player (Giggs emerged in year five). Benítez would only be at that stage in 2011.

Indeed, if you add together every single player Rafa has bought (and there have been around 60, many of whom were mere kids), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.

Even if you also add the cost of those players Rafa inherited who are still at the club (and there are just three), it still does not reach the total cost of United's current squad.

Including players out on loan (but not the full Tevez fee due this summer), United's squad costs over £215m, compared with Liverpool's £134m.

Let me remind you of what I said a few weeks back:

“Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.”

Benítez is trying to overturn an established superpower, one that still has a dozen-or-so players who predate his arrival in England. Rafa has just three who were good enough and young enough to endure (not that Hyypia was young, but like Giggs he is evergreen).

As well as buy players, Rafa has had to change the culture of the club to fit in with his ideas, as all managers do; Ferguson did that 20 years ago. It's why it took him so long to win the title, as you cannot change things overnight.

Unless Benítez was going to try and compete for honours with the likes of Diao, Cheyrou, and Diouf, or players like Smicer, Dudek, Hamann and Henchoz, who are now all in their mid-30s (and therefore had a very short shelf-life), or injury-prone stars like Harry Kewell, Liverpool needed a fairly complete overhaul.

Particularly as Owen and Heskey had left, and Djibril Cissé was about to arrive, all of which had been pretty much decided before Rafa took the job. (Also, including Cissé as a Benítez signing only further skews the figures.)

So the inaccuracies are clear for all to see. But let's switch things a little.

How did Ferguson overtake Liverpool? The situation was very similar to that now, even if it was a long time ago now.

Remember, both Ferguson and Benítez arrived aged 44, and inherited squads that had averaged 4th over the previous four seasons, and finished 4th the season before they arrived. All the fours, then!

Each had a massive burden of expectation, brought about by a desperately long wait for the title. Alex Ferguson's average league position in his first five seasons at United was 8.6 (11th, 2nd, 11th, 13th, and 6th). Benítez's, if Liverpool finish only 3rd this season, will be 3.6.

But Ferguson faced in Liverpool in the '80s an established team with a top-class manager. He couldn't get close to Dalglish during their time in the respective dugouts.

Ferguson spent more money between 1986 and February 1991 (£12.8m gross, £9.87m net) than Dalglish managed in his six seasons (£12.5m gross, but only £5.77m net), but got nowhere near to toppling the Reds in that time.

So United's net spend was virtually twice that of Liverpool, and yet Ferguson still didn't trouble Dalglish. The money Ferguson spent wisely in the late '80s on players like Ince, Pallister, Hughes and Bruce took four years to have any effect on the league title. This is only Torres and Mascherano's second season.

So why did Ferguson spend so much more than Dalglish?

Well, Dalglish (like Ferguson in 2004) had a lot of his squad already in place.

Grobbelaar, Hansen, McMahon, Whelan and Nicol all spanned the entire period when Dalglish and Ferguson managed the two English superpowers.

(Liverpool raised £3.2m from selling Ian Rush in 1987, but the Reds also spend almost as much to bring him back a year later.)

Those men formed the heart of Dalglish's Liverpool.

They were five players who didn't need to be signed between 1986 and 1991; the kind of quality that could cost a king's ransom if they hadn't already been snapped up before at the top of their powers.

Ian Rush, the sixth name, also had a Liverpool connection which meant that although he needed to be re-signed, it was a relatively easy deal because of his time at Anfield.

Of course, Rush's initial departure led to the greatest influx of talent seen under Dalglish: the wonderful quartet of Aldridge, Beardsley, Barnes and Houghton. So Dalglish was partly 'blessed' in that Rush, whom he inherited, at least raised enough money to rebuild the attack upon his transfer.

Ferguson has enjoyed similar bonuses more recently: selling his best players for big fees as they approached their 30s (such as Stam, Beckham and Van Nistelrooy). Such sales now help keep Ferguson's net spend down, but in his first five years he couldn't get such impressive sums for Ron Atkinson's flops. So his net spend was very high for the times.

Again, make the comparison with Benítez and the likes of Diao and Cheyrou, who raised nothing.

Benítez never had such a luxury. Owen's value wasn't great due to his contract situation, leaving £10m less coming in. The only seriously saleable asset was Steven Gerrard.

The biggest profits Rafa has made have been on players he himself bought: Crouch, Bellamy, Sissoko. Of course, he hasn't been in the job long enough to sell his real gems, in the way Ferguson and Wenger (with Henry and Vieira) have picked the perfect time to cash in on world-class players aged 29/30/31.

If Rafa wanted to sell Torres he could make a massive profit, but thankfully the striker still has five years before he even reaches 30. So it's not relevant. Ideally, Torres would score loads of goals, win Liverpool titles, and return to his beloved Atletico no earlier than 2014 for a big fee.

Therefore you cannot ignore the way Ferguson overcame Liverpool – not by spending more, but by spending twice the amount.

So there you have it. It took the resignation of Dalglish to open the way for Ferguson, who had spent twice as much money but only averaged 9th place between 1986 and 1991. No wonder United fans wanted him out in 1990. But it just goes to show how difficult it is to overtake a side that already has the momentum, but that the best managers get there in the end.

If Ferguson is thinking back to how he did so, then no wonder he's feeling worried.

TOMKINS: END SHOCKING TRANSFER MYTH
Paul Tomkins 04 March 2009

I've tried in the past, but the media misinformation continues to gather pace like some ill-founded rumour. It's dangerous, because it causes unjust criticism.

Let's make one thing clear: Liverpool have nowhere near the most expensive squad in the Premiership.

No. Where. Near.

Indeed, there are three clubs who have spent at least 50 per cent more on their current squad than Liverpool.

Shocked? Well, you should be if you believe what's spouted out on TV. But it's true. And one of the clubs is not a name you'd necessarily expect.

It doesn't help that some people – such as Jamie Redknapp last night – focus on Rafa's gross spend, rather than the net amount. Effectively, this means counting all the right-backs he's bought as one big outlay, rather than looking at how he's replaced one with another for roughly the same £2m fee.

Working with just the gross spend, you add the £2m of Josemi to the £2m value of Kromkamp (even though it was a swap), to the £2.6m paid for Arbeloa. But none of these players were at the club at the same time, and each was traded to get to the point where an outright success was secured, as happened with the final purchase.

So even though the total cost of getting Arbeloa was just the £2.6m paid, people will use a figure almost three times as high. That is illogical.

(Another note, Jamie: Liverpool have three right-backs on the books, not just one; but the promising Darby, like Arbeloa, was injured and Degen has had a first season ruined by various ailments. So it's wrong to criticise the manager for an unbalanced squad and playing a midfielder out of position when three right-backs are unavailable.)

It's like the housing market: you don't just go in and buy a mansion straight from school. (Okay, so maybe some footballers do, but not the normal people of this world. As someone stuck with renting, I'm speaking generally here!)

You start with an affordable house; you then use the money from selling that to buy your next property. Most people can only get to own a big house having traded their way up over a number of years.

Yet when someone asks how much you spent on your house, you don't add all the houses you've ever bought together, do you?

If you own a £220,000 house, you don't say £470,000 because you add the £90,000 starter home and the £160,000 step up. That would be moronic.

According to the excellent and reliable www.LFCHistory.net, Rafa's gross spend is approximately £188m, but his net spend is only £108m, given that around £80m has been recouped.

(I'd hazard a guess that a large proportion of the £108m net spend has also been recouped through Champions League progress rewards, particularly with the Reds being the top-ranked team based on his five-year tenure.)

So it's easy to pluck a figure of '£195m' from the air, live on air, and make it seem like that should make a team champions, or ultra-close challengers.

But it's only the cost of the current squad that counts. Because that's all a manager can choose from; he can't go back in time and select a player he sold in order to trade up, just as you can't just turn up to one of your old houses and let yourself in.

You simply cannot add Rafa having spent £5.8m on Sissoko to the £18m on Mascherano, because the two were never part of the same set-up; one was bought and sold for a profit, and as with a house, the money reinvested in a step-up. If Sissoko isn't bought and then sold, Mascherano probably doesn't arrive.

Is that really too tough to grasp?

From my own experience in writing 'Dynasty', I can attest that researching transfer fees is never easy, given the amount of undisclosed fees and various add-ons (for various things, like appearances, trophies won, national caps and the cultivation of unexpectedly daring hairstyles).

But taking each fee as the most a club has expect to pay when add-ons are activated, I've calculated the cost of the most expensive squads in the league, and listed them below.

(Note: while it's impossible to be 100 per cent accurate with the figures in the public domain, I'd say that overall it's at least 95 per cent of the true amount, and with rival teams I've actually been generous and excluded a couple of players whose cost just isn't listed anywhere I could find.)

The most expensive squads (excluding players out on long-term loan) are as follows:

Chelsea £207m
Manchester United £206m*
Spurs £188m
Manchester City £140m
Liverpool £127m

(*£226m if Carlos Tevez's deal made permanent, given that it is initially a unique two-year £10m agreement, and very different from 99.9 of transfer deals. Effectively United are winning games with a £30m player.)

So what does this tell us?

Let's start with the leaders. United's squad contains the most home-grown players, such as Giggs, Scholes, Neville, O'Shea, Brown and Fletcher, who all arrived for free.

So that shows that it is a long-established core supplemented by a lot of expensive signings added one by one to a unified collection. In other words, classic, spot-on building of a squad when already established at the very top.

But it shows that even if you work with the unfair use of Rafa's gross spend, it still doesn't match what Ferguson has spent on his current squad, let alone those who have been bought and sold for record fees in the past.

And this is utterly, utterly critical, and beyond the grasp of some people who cannot analyse things with common sense.

After all, what does it matter how much Rafa has spent since 2004 if Ferguson is currently fielding players like Ferdinand (£30m) and Ronaldo (£12.8m) who were bought before then?

Isn't Rafa – in the real world – competing with a team whose construction started well before he arrived?

Unless Ferguson is banned from fielding players like Ferdinand and Ronaldo (which would be illogical), or forced to start from scratch in 2004 (again illogical), it is not a fair comparison, is it? – I mean, come on, use your brain for a second here.

After all, how much as Harry Redknapp spent since he took over at Spurs? I make it almost £50m. How much has Rafa spent since Harry Redknapp took over at Spurs? Nothing. But only a nutter would compare the two in this deeply skewed way.

Rafa has been in his job about five times as long as Harry, so you obviously wouldn't dare compare their teams. And yet Ferguson has been in his job about five times as long as Rafa, and yet the Spaniard is expected to have Liverpool as champions by now.

Chelsea and Spurs are actually the more interesting examples in many ways. I knew Spurs had spent a lot, but to have a current squad that cost almost £200m shocked me. Add together the cost of Bentley, Pavyluchenko, Palacios, Bale, Defoe, Bent, Keane and Modric and you more-or-less end up with the cost of Liverpool's entire squad.

I could be sarcastic – or media-style sensationalistic – and say that with that much spent, any manager should be able to win almost all of his matches, but it wouldn't be fair or logical. It's far more complex than that, and even a good manager like Redknapp has his work cut out.

Chelsea and Spurs have had seven managers between them since 2007. This means different men making expensive signings and ending up with a mixed squad. Based on expenditure, both of these clubs are massively underachieving this season. Almost certainly to blame for that is the hierarchy having itchy fingers when it comes to firing managers.

Of course, this analysis doesn't include wages, either. You don't get the very top players in the world without also having to pay them a king's ransom. Michael Ballack must be most expensive free transfer ever, with wages reported to be around £130,000 a week, or about £30m over five years. Again, Liverpool are no way near the highest payers, either.

So there you have it. By all means print it out and pass it around; 'pass it on', as the saying goes, including to those in the media who could do with reading it. By all means quibble over some of the finer details, as there is a tolerance of a few percent on the accuracy of the figures, but the overall gist is very much sound and robust.

Note: as all good schoolteachers tell you to do, my workings are there to see, and will be available to view on my website.
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[aCe']

Tomkins talks BS mate and everyone knows it.... the figures are up there for everyone to check.... no 10000 word article to prove a point or anything... just simple facts... if you find any wrong figures or any of that let me know....

As i said, this is about as unbiased and accurate as you'll find... hopefully it'll put all the nonsense about spending to bed...

JUST TO MAKE THINGS CLEAR : this isnt about Fergusons team before Rafa took over, not about us having a sht squad before Rafa took over, not about the owner... not about Chelsea buying the league..etc etc...

Simply stating facts as they are with regards to money spent under Rafa....

[sajven]

The difference with Fergie and Raffa seems to be that Fergie ends up getting away with what he says because he is winning trophies even when the stars leave and it worries me if real ever came in for Nando, what would happen to the team.

[Flight]

Care to share where you got the figures from, because it looks like that site that had our spending on it's front page and had a host of information.


A number of our players sold are either missing, have no price next to them  or have less than we got for them listed. Diarra, Nunez, Paletta, Anderson, Cheyrou and Whitbread, off the cuff while we got more for Kromkamp and Mellor than is listed.


No way Nando was £26.5 mill.

The listed £1.5mill loan fee listed for Mascha was part of the final purchase fee, so shouldn't be listed.

And if you are loooking at Rafas spend, as your post title suggests, its more than disingenuous listing the £14mill for Cisse under Rafa as it was signed and agreed before he got here.



As for the Mancs, I've not looked into it at all, but for a start I can tell you the two lads they bought last summer are listed at £5mill each, when they were over £8mill each.

It's also more than generous gifting Ferguson with the £12mill for Mikel.

[tubby]

Tomkins talks BS mate and everyone knows it.... the figures are up there for everyone to check.... no 10000 word article to prove a point or anything... just simple facts... if you find any wrong figures or any of that let me know....

As i said, this is about as unbiased and accurate as you'll find... hopefully it'll put all the nonsense about spending to bed...

JUST TO MAKE THINGS CLEAR : this isnt about Fergusons team before Rafa took over, not about us having a sht squad before Rafa took over, not about the owner... not about Chelsea buying the league..etc etc...

Simply stating facts as they are with regards to money spent under Rafa....

Mate you cannot dimisss that article like that saying he talks bs. If it is BS then take a few mins, quote the whole article bit by bit and tell me each point is wrong. He is using figures too. It's just that the way you portray the figures gives a skewed view because you do not take other factors into consideration.

[tubby]

The difference with Fergie and Raffa seems to be that Fergie ends up getting away with what he says because he is winning trophies even when the stars leave and it worries me if real ever came in for Nando, what would happen to the team.

Well Fergie is able to spend 20-30Mil on individual players where as that is usually our overall budget that needs to be spread out over a few players.

[Nando26]

1. Wheres this info come from........seems to me

2. Rafa had to build up his squad minus afew players Fergie already had a team full of 20 mill plus players which hes keep building on throughout the time Rafas been here

3. Nando would neva go Real he hates them so no danger there

[Nando26]

The difference with Fergie and Raffa seems to be that Fergie ends up getting away with what he says because he is winning trophies even when the stars leave and it worries me if real ever came in for Nando, what would happen to the team.

Well Fergie is able to spend 20-30Mil on individual players where as that is usually our overall budget that needs to be spread out over a few players.

Spot on m8 im glad thiers more supporters on here like you then ace who seem to lack any type of logic

[Flight]

Frankly, that whole list is a load of made up rubbish and from an unsound source.


I'm certain you've cut and paste them from the site that Manc tw@t put together, with the front page dedicated to making Rafa look like he has spent much more than he has.


And, just to underline how much bullsh1t that list is you've used, I can remember that the 'authority' they list for the '£26.5mill' fee for Nando was actually the Echo which made up the figure when it published the rumour we were in for him a few days before the story broke. As I recall, there is a footnote linked next to the figure which is linked to the Echo story.

In short, if you want to look into this properly, start from a better source.

[tubby]

The difference with Fergie and Raffa seems to be that Fergie ends up getting away with what he says because he is winning trophies even when the stars leave and it worries me if real ever came in for Nando, what would happen to the team.

Well Fergie is able to spend 20-30Mil on individual players where as that is usually our overall budget that needs to be spread out over a few players.

Spot on m8 im glad thiers more supporters on here like you then ace who seem to lack any type of logic

It's not so much ace personally mate but I notice often people just take figures for their face value without looking at the bigger picture. When Rafa arrived he was left with a squad bar a few players so he could not make that much selling them. Fergie had to do the same thing when he first came and if you look at the spending in he first 5 seasons on average we finished higher than Utd so £ for £ Rafa has done well imo.

But not everyone can be arsed to look at the details they just see a bunch of figures, grab their c.ocks and jump around saying all sorts of silly things.

[Flight]

As i said, this is about as unbiased and accurate as you'll find... hopefully it'll put all the nonsense about spending to bed...

It's actually as biased and inaccurate, not to mention incomplete, a list as you will find.

[aCe']

pathetic bunch but anyways.. this was done to prove a point and twist it any way you want but it still wont change the fact that we spent what we did and thats the end of it....

just to clear up a few things.. if a fee is undisclosed it will either say so or it will say "signed" which means it was initially a loan deal... the Mascherano BS if you bothered looking it up newbie, it shows the reduced figure in the final transfer... the Torres thing is as cited in the most credible source available.. you want to take goal.com's reported figure then by all means go ahead..

this isnt a dig at Rafa and it has nothing to do with what Fergie had before 2004... its just to clear up a few misconceptions that apparently even facts wont be able to alter but anyways...

make of it what you will... if you have anything meaningful to contribute with regards to the figures above then by all means ill change the above but from what i've seen its just BS from a bunch of rambling buffoons so far...

[tubby]

Sorry mate but those figures are bs. The only thing this proves is some people are too lazy to look for the old thread to bump.

[fivecups]

Source! Source! Source!