Liverpool FC Forum

[115-1073096938]

imo roy evans would have done a better job but he lost his job because of collymore and the trouble he caused in a good young team, if you look back to the evans era we were a cracking team if just a little inconsistant,

houllier is up there with daglish for me, as a manager who was paper sucessful but did more harm than good, i know that might be abit contriversal but daglish was an amasing player but a terrible manager

I can't say I agree with that statement.

You can't say that Daglish was a terrible manager when he was the last manager to win us a League title.    True Daglish was managing the tail end of an era, that why he jumped ship. He left on a high.

Our team under Evans was good but his mangerial skills we're neglible. His emotion for the club blinded his reason, he couldn't make the big decisions needed. I mean what is Evans doing now, the fact he isn't managing a is testament to his inability to manage. From being manager to just scraping a job as assistant manager speaks volumes, IMO the board we're at fault for appointing him.

Houllier brought a breathe of fresh air to the team and a new 'winning' mentality. Initially his signings we're genius.

Hyypia - for a time our defence was the best in england, Hyypia as a signing was amazing for the price and talent signed.

Hamann - He is a true servant to the club and at times indispencable. A true liverpool great.

Henchoz and Smicer - Smicer became a cult hero and loved by the kop for his charisma and attitude, even when he couldn't hit a brick wall. Henchoz turned out to be inconsistent but did an adaquate job at his peak, and worked well with Hyypia.

Houlliers downfall was his failed signings, not only did he buy into a french market that had most of the best talent already bought by other clubs, but he paid well over the odds for fairly average players. All in all Liverpool will always thank Houllier because he began the transistion of the new liverpool team. The treble year epitomised that perfectly.

Benitez is moving liverpool back to greatnest, he is building a team to match the team of the 80s, he may never reach those heights but I am confident he will get close.

I'm quite sure you've got Henchoz and Smicer mixed up.

[metalhead]

every manager has some poor buys, its part of the game

even the like of wenger, mourinho and ferguson have bought bad players

i personally don't rate crouch, morientes or fowler (at this point in time)

if rafa had managed to find a henry or van nistelrooy with that money then the team would be doing much better

btw im not a scouser   

Sorry stu i disagree with you about ashton! Rafa made a good buy, buying crouch! He knew he needed a player to solve the away problem and found that Crouch is the player he wants. Look at the away games when crouch played, for example Aston Villa, it looked to me it was going to end 0-0, but when Crouch came in he changed the outcome of the game! He held up the ball so well and let the midfield go forward which ended alonso scoring the second goal. Another example is Betis away! his flicks and great passes contributed to garcia's goal. I agree with you about ashton that he can score more goals than crouch but i disagree with you that he can hold the ball like crouch and bring the midfield forward! Also Crouch is hard to defend against because he is a tall player! You did see England vs Uruguay? or England vs Argentina? he was a very hard to defend against and played as a distraction to let owen score the 2 goals. I don't think Ashton has the same technical abilities as Crouch! don't get me wrong but i like ashton he is a very good striker and i wouldn't mind him in our team (i bought him in Footy manager lol) but i think Crouch is better as a team player, technically and mentally better.

As for Penannt he can solve our right wing problem, but Benitez didn't make a mistake signing him because he was trying to sign SWP before Chelsea did or maybe Benitez didn't highly rated pennant alot.

Agreed about Traore and Cisse, they are not good enough.

[SouthCoastShankly]

imo roy evans would have done a better job but he lost his job because of collymore and the trouble he caused in a good young team, if you look back to the evans era we were a cracking team if just a little inconsistant,

houllier is up there with daglish for me, as a manager who was paper sucessful but did more harm than good, i know that might be abit contriversal but daglish was an amasing player but a terrible manager

I can't say I agree with that statement.

You can't say that Daglish was a terrible manager when he was the last manager to win us a League title.    True Daglish was managing the tail end of an era, that why he jumped ship. He left on a high.

Our team under Evans was good but his mangerial skills we're neglible. His emotion for the club blinded his reason, he couldn't make the big decisions needed. I mean what is Evans doing now, the fact he isn't managing a is testament to his inability to manage. From being manager to just scraping a job as assistant manager speaks volumes, IMO the board we're at fault for appointing him.

Houllier brought a breathe of fresh air to the team and a new 'winning' mentality. Initially his signings we're genius.

Hyypia - for a time our defence was the best in england, Hyypia as a signing was amazing for the price and talent signed.

Hamann - He is a true servant to the club and at times indispencable. A true liverpool great.

Henchoz and Smicer - Smicer became a cult hero and loved by the kop for his charisma and attitude, even when he couldn't hit a brick wall. Henchoz turned out to be inconsistent but did an adaquate job at his peak, and worked well with Hyypia.

Houlliers downfall was his failed signings, not only did he buy into a french market that had most of the best talent already bought by other clubs, but he paid well over the odds for fairly average players. All in all Liverpool will always thank Houllier because he began the transistion of the new liverpool team. The treble year epitomised that perfectly.

Benitez is moving liverpool back to greatnest, he is building a team to match the team of the 80s, he may never reach those heights but I am confident he will get close.

I'm quite sure you've got Henchoz and Smicer mixed up.

No, i do think that Henchoz was inconsistent thats why he was sold. I think Smicer in some ways reminded me of Garcia. Both can be irritating beyond belief regarding c0ckups in important games. But I think Smicer sealed his cult status with his goal in the champions league final - made up for his years of errors!

[SouthCoastShankly]

The players where there for us to sign at the start of the season.

Rafa made a mistake signing Crouch instead of Ashton. He made a mistake signing Morientes and he's made a mistake not signing Pennant.

Pennant has tremendous potential and someone like Rafa can help him realise that. With players like Alonso, Gerrard and Carragher around him it would only benefit him as a person and a player.

Ashton can do everything Crouch can do and more. He's a better alround player with more physical presence and pace, far greater goalscoring ability and just probably very similar in terms of link up play. He's better at receiving balls with a defender around him aswell.

Crouch has four league goals.
Ashton has three in five games for West Ham.

This summer we should test West Ham's resolve and try and get Asthon and we should go in for Pennant, they're the right players at the right price. I would be suprised if you couldn't get Pennant for 6.5million and i would be suprised if you can't get Ashton for 10million.

Those two players would leave us lacking one top quality striker. The squad would have strength and depth and we'd be able to challenge.

Traore and Cisse must go as they aren't good enough. We aren't a team that can afford one weak link in a game, when the two of them play as against Charlton, it costs us the game. Between them they don't contribute enough and ruin the rhythm of the other good players around them when they conceed possession and do stupid things.

I like Ashton, my fear is that his form could be a one off. So many strikers have promised and never delivered consistently over the seasons. Look at Michael Ricketts, everyone was raving about him - he even got an england call-up. Look at him now, dwindling in the championship. I'd like to monitor Ashton for another season before shelling out the cash, lets see him become a proven premiership scorer. I'm sick of us buying 'potential' - we need to start buying guaranteed quality. I'd have Owen back over Ashton anyday.

Pennant is good, very good but he just doesn't help himself with all the sh!t he gets himself into all the time. You'd think prison would of proved that. I just think you wouldd't get the level of commitment out of him.

[115-1073096938]

every manager has some poor buys, its part of the game

even the like of wenger, mourinho and ferguson have bought bad players

i personally don't rate crouch, morientes or fowler (at this point in time)

if rafa had managed to find a henry or van nistelrooy with that money then the team would be doing much better

btw im not a scouser   

Sorry stu i disagree with you about ashton! Rafa made a good buy, buying crouch! He knew he needed a player to solve the away problem and found that Crouch is the player he wants. Look at the away games when crouch played, for example Aston Villa, it looked to me it was going to end 0-0, but when Crouch came in he changed the outcome of the game! He held up the ball so well and let the midfield go forward which ended alonso scoring the second goal. Another example is Betis away! his flicks and great passes contributed to garcia's goal. I agree with you about ashton that he can score more goals than crouch but i disagree with you that he can hold the ball like crouch and bring the midfield forward! Also Crouch is hard to defend against because he is a tall player! You did see England vs Uruguay? or England vs Argentina? he was a very hard to defend against and played as a distraction to let owen score the 2 goals. I don't think Ashton has the same technical abilities as Crouch! don't get me wrong but i like ashton he is a very good striker and i wouldn't mind him in our team (i bought him in Footy manager lol) but i think Crouch is better as a team player, technically and mentally better.

As for Penannt he can solve our right wing problem, but Benitez didn't make a mistake signing him because he was trying to sign SWP before Chelsea did or maybe Benitez didn't highly rated pennant alot.

Agreed about Traore and Cisse, they are not good enough.

Right so Liverpool's away form this season is down to Crouch?

That simple is it?

How about we sign a player to make us amazing in europe then? And a player for when we play Chelsea?

Ashton isn't as good technically and mentally as Crouch?

Behave.

Technically he's outstanding, his touch and hold up play are his main strengths. The lads a class act and a far far better player than Crouch will ever be.

I like Crouch, he's got his uses and i back him 100 percent but if i had to pick one of the two its a no brainer. Its the same difference in Gerrard and Lampard and Carrick and Alonso. Theres a massive gap in class.

I find it quite amusing when people talk about "proven" players. Its not about proven, its about quality. Xabi was unproven, who'd take Lampard over him? Gallas was unproven, 5million and one of the best, as was Hyypia.

This isn't Earnshaw or Ricketts, this isn't a limited player i'm talking about, its a lad who's proven his class every game he's played near enough over the last 5 years.

He's got ability, reasons players fail is simply down to bad use or they don't have it in the first place. Ashton has it, Rafa knows how to use good players.

Thats the end of it.

[bigmick]

This isn't Earnshaw or Ricketts, this isn't a limited player i'm talking about

Hey I sense a sideways swipe in my direction here  (mind you the little ponce can't buy a goal since his move to Norwich. Doesn't he realise my reputation's on the line here?).
As for Ashton, he has by all accounts settled very well. I know Pardew really rates him and he's generally been getting rave reviews all round. I must confess I'm itching to see him play a full game myself but the time they were on the telly I was working.
The one thing I would say is that he's in that bracket now where he really needs to be good. What I mean by that is for West Ham to pay 7.5 million for him is a massive outlay and you'd expect him to deliver. Rafa paid 7 million for Crouch who whatever anybody thinks, is a certainty for the World Cup squad so in those terms Ashton is now in a new bracket to what he has been previously. That said he has scored a couple of goals already and his target must surelybe to emulate that other 7 million pound "unknown", Yakubu and continue to enhance both his value and his reputation.

[Lando_Griffin]

Well having seen the compilation of his goals this season, I'd take David Villa over just about anyone TBH.

He reminded me so much of Fowler in his peak.

[banburyred]

Anyway... Banbury? What the frigging hell are replying to a tool like this for anyway? Another know nothing, out of town shirt wearer who comes on here claiming to support the local side yet all he wants to do is slag us off.

Exactly the same as BavLondon, people like this don't respect the club and are quite simply glory hunters. Enough said. 


Houllier, he left years ago, get over it.

Stu the Red - Sorry if I caused offence that was not the intention at all.  I'd never slag off the club but it was an opinion on what Houllier had done and been given by the board.  Just merely trying to have a constructive debate about the board backing Rafa.  As you say I am an out of town and regrettably don't get to as many homes games as I used to.  Got more involved with the non league game over the years and watch the reds away more these days. But you can support the club from a distance and care about what is going on.  However I take on board what you say and respect your opinion.

[SouthCoastShankly]

This isn't Earnshaw or Ricketts, this isn't a limited player i'm talking about

Hey I sense a sideways swipe in my direction here  (mind you the little ponce can't buy a goal since his move to Norwich. Doesn't he realise my reputation's on the line here?).
As for Ashton, he has by all accounts settled very well. I know Pardew really rates him and he's generally been getting rave reviews all round. I must confess I'm itching to see him play a full game myself but the time they were on the telly I was working.
The one thing I would say is that he's in that bracket now where he really needs to be good. What I mean by that is for West Ham to pay 7.5 million for him is a massive outlay and you'd expect him to deliver. Rafa paid 7 million for Crouch who whatever anybody thinks, is a certainty for the World Cup squad so in those terms Ashton is now in a new bracket to what he has been previously. That said he has scored a couple of goals already and his target must surelybe to emulate that other 7 million pound "unknown", Yakubu and continue to enhance both his value and his reputation.

Now Yakubu is a case of proven talent. A 'promising' signing who has translated his potential into consistent goals for both Portsmouth and Boro. I can't see Rafa going for Ashton in the summer, maybe next season aftew he has proven his worth in the premiership. He has shown his worth in the championship, his premiership form could be temporary thats why he need to be monitored for another season, or at least January 2007.

[115-1073096938]

As i've said. Proven means nothing. Its got all to do with anything at all. Proven doesn't garentee success.

Morientes is "proven" all over Europe, whats he done?
Gerrard and Carragher weren't proven when they first came into the side.

Neither was Owen or Fowler. Bergkamp, Henry, Hyypia etc.

You either have it or you don't.

You need to fit into the system or it won't work. Players with the ability to suit a system play well, players that don't have that ability fail. It doesn't mean a players bad, or good if they fail at one club or if indeed they are n great form for another.

Systems and formations make players.

Getting the best use out of players at this level is essential.

Ashton is miles better than Crouch. As i've said in a previous post, its like comparing Carrick and Alonso, Gerrard and Lampard, Cisse and Henry. There is a massive gap in class between the two players, Ashton can do near enough everything Crouch can do and a whole lot more.

[Sabre]

That's right Stu, but then, haven't you seen players that in the same club play a season, and they do explode after two seasons? Perhaps it doesn't happen that often in top level clubs that want inmediate results, but it happens often.

That need of inmediate results, might have something to do with the so called "Anfield curse" For instance I think that Crouch will be much more valuable in the future than now, and I think we'd best not to get rid of him.

[tel]

houllier is up there with daglish for me, as a manager who was paper sucessful but did more harm than good, i know that might be abit contriversal but daglish was an amasing player but a terrible manager

Dalglish won the double in his first year as manager, only the 2nd time it was ever achieved in England.

You are a nob

daglish is a hero as a player in my eyes but the fact that he took over a great team and won the double doesn't make him a great manager.

liverpool   took the reigns as player manager and we went down hill into transition from there

blackburn  bank role the league by a dying millionaire

newcastle  don,t mention his name there

celtic    another great job

tv pundit 


being called a nob by you isn't so bad because you have no idea what you are taking about

feck off ladyboy 

You have no idea. Dalglish brought in players like Barnes and Beardsley. We were unstoppable the year Rushie went to Juventus.

And he would have left with another title under his belt if we werent robbed by Michael Thomas. Were you even old enough to have seen that game?

You are a nob

[65-1140560321]

Hi everyone I'm a newcomer to this forum but have read with interest a lot of the comments made over the past few months.  The question what I've been pondering is what funds the club will give Rafa in the summer, so that he can buy the quality of strikers that we need to win the premiership.  When thinking about the sum needed I couldn't stop being reminded of the £34M spent by Houllier on Cisse, Cheyrou, Diouf and Diao. Rafa would never have wasted this amount so easily and I just hope the board show the same trust in Rafa and back him heavily this summer as they did with Houllier.

this is an interesting point.

but the thing is...Rafa probably wont get the cash that Houllier got, as the cost of the new stadium is up over 100m at the moment, and they need to secure funding for that.

[SouthCoastShankly]

As i've said. Proven means nothing. Its got all to do with anything at all. Proven doesn't garentee success.

Morientes is "proven" all over Europe, whats he done?
Gerrard and Carragher weren't proven when they first came into the side.

Neither was Owen or Fowler. Bergkamp, Henry, Hyypia etc.

You either have it or you don't.

You need to fit into the system or it won't work. Players with the ability to suit a system play well, players that don't have that ability fail. It doesn't mean a players bad, or good if they fail at one club or if indeed they are n great form for another.

Systems and formations make players.

Getting the best use out of players at this level is essential.

Ashton is miles better than Crouch. As i've said in a previous post, its like comparing Carrick and Alonso, Gerrard and Lampard, Cisse and Henry. There is a massive gap in class between the two players, Ashton can do near enough everything Crouch can do and a whole lot more.

My point was proven Premiership scorer. The credentials needed to suceed here are different that the continent, Morientes has shown that.

Ashton is good but someone like Yakubu has shown his ability to score consistently at the top level. Ashton hasn't done that. Thats why I said leave it another year to see his worth. You can't say he will be great in the premiership from seeing him in 6 odd games for West Ham (a promotion team). He may be great but time will tell. Shelling out money like that on Ashton is too much of a risk, the best of players can flop. Look at Cisse and Morientes - we all we're ranting at the start of the season about how good they're gunna be but look how its turned out.

[Big Niall]

A good manager is one who leaves the club better than he joined it.

Dalglish took over the best team in England and left a team on the slide. Not good.

Souness - nuff said

Evans - played good football, top 4 every year, if only he wasn't so soft we could have been champtions, left us better though so he was good.

GH - had the discipline Evans lacked but left a team on a par with Evans (league worse, second rate trophies better) but spent a fortune so not a good manager.

Nobody can argue with this analysis!!!!