Liverpool FC Forum

[maguskwt]

Figures are way manipulated... since when is Torres transfer £26.5 million? It was £20 million. Aquilani's total value was 20 million Euros, not £20 millions. Probably a manc supporting Journo...if I have time I will look up at these values but unfortunately I don't... And who's gonna bet against Fergie not spending that 80 million from Ronaldo this summer, especially if they don't win the league. Anyway, whatever, like I said you guys deserve a new manager... probably one every 4 years...

Mags, you're being very flippant about a detailed article that (even if it is a few million off the mark) in many ways, completely debunks your argument. I don't know how you can simply say 'that was probably written by a manc journalist', particularly when the timeonline article arrives at the same conclusions. I would be interested to hear your comments on the article rather than your dismissal of it.

It does interest me and I will look into it and respond properly Scotts. It's just that right now I'm pretty occupied. And after my research the results show the same then I will admit I got it wrong.

What I know is though there are conflicting data on these transfer records. Just as many articles would highlight that Rafa has actually spent less than Fergie (not considering the Ronaldo transfer of course). What infuriates me is when people always highlight that we have spent more under Rafa as compared to Fergie and use it as a stick to hit Rafa with, completely ignoring the fact that they have been spending 30, 20 million net every year since 2000. If you say that doesn't matter because it's far off in the past how come 5-6 of their key players were bought during that period?

Anyway, I apologise to anyone if I was flippant and disrespectful. I know saint is a good poster and to a certain extent a fair poster . I guess it comes from my personality that I like to stick up for the underdogs. That's how I started supporting LFC anyway... when we were quite in the late 90's. And that's also why I also defended Kuyt fiercely last time when some people were just tearing him apart on the forums. Not that he's my favourite player... it's because I feel that he doesn't deserve the criticism. At the same time if Rafa is performing the way he's performing now and there is nobody criticising him, I will probably be the first to criticise him.

[radun5]

From The Sunday Times October 25, 2009

How Liverpool's transfer spending compares   Matthew Fearon
On the eve of this season, Liverpool manager Rafa Bentiez bemoaned his side’s lack of financial power. However, an analysis of the spending habits of the ‘Big Four’ since his appointment in June 2004 shows that the Spaniard has outspent Sir Alex Ferguson by £80m. Furthermore, when money raised through player sales is taken into account, Benitez’ net spending dwarves Ferguson’s by £95m and only Chelsea have spent more on player recruitment during the same five-year period.

Benitez wasted no time in splashing the cash on his arrival on Merseyside. In his first season at the club his net spending totalled £31m, including £20m on the misfiring strike partnership of Djibril Cisse and Fernando Morientes. At the same time, Ferguson was making an upfront payment – also of £20m – for Wayne Rooney, who has since confirmed that he was, and still is, the brightest prospect in English football.

With Roman Abramovich a year into his Chelsea spending spree at the time of Benitez’s arrival, only the West London club could match the Spaniard’s outlay. Their most expensive signing that summer was the £24m Didier Drogba but his 102nd goal for the club against Blackburn yesterday suggests much better value for money than the £6.3m Benitez paid for Morientes, who managed just 12 goals throughout his Liverpool career.

While Benitez was spending £41m on eight players in that first season – none of whom are still at the club – Arsene Wenger was splashing out £2m on four players, two of whom – Manuel Almunia and Emmanuel Eboue – have become crucial members of the Arsenal side, while a third, Vito Mannone has burst on to the scene this season. In fact, since June 2004, Wenger has earned his club £27m from his transfer dealings and has spent £154m less that Benitez.

The extent of the Liverpool manager’s spending comes as a surprise, his method of recruitment offers up a telling explanation; as the figures show he likes to spread his wealth thinly. Since joining the club, he has signed 23 players for less than £3m, while during the same period Ferguson has brought in just seven bargain-basement players, the last of whom was the out-of-contract Michael Owen – the first player Benitez allowed to leave the Anfield.

It is worth noting that the world record fee of £80m Manchester United received from Real Madrid for Cristiano Ronaldo this summer undoubtedly massages their 2004-09 net spending figure, although such largesse did not stop Florentino Pérez boosting Liverpool’s coffers by £30m in return for the services of Xabi Alonso.

While in the six months before Bentiez’s appointment, Ferguson spent £26.7m on Louis Saha, Alan Smith and Gabriel Heinze, he was at least dipping into a £40m war chest funded by the sales of David Beckham to Real Madrid for £25m and Juan Sebastian Veron to Chelsea for £15m. Even taking Ferguson’s pre-Benitez spending into account, the Liverpool boss still comfortably outspends the Scot.

In conclusion, he could only have been referring to Chelsea when he said on the eve of this season that: “It is always difficult to compete in the Premier League with clubs who have more money.” And even then, Benitez’s net spending over the last five transfer windows eclipses even that of Abramovich. Perhaps now it is time he turned to some more imaginative excuses.

Liverpool total net spend 2004-09: £122m loss 

2004-05 Net spend: £31.05m loss in total
Players in + fee: Djibril Cisse £14m, Josemi £2m, Luis Garcia £6m, Xabi Alonso £10.5m, Antonio Nunez £2m, Mauricio Pellegrino free, Fernando Morientes £6.3m, Scott Carson £0.75m.
Players out + fee: Markus Babbel free, Danny Murphy £2.5m, Michael Owen £8m, Stephane Henchoz free.

2005-06 Net spend: £23.4m loss
Players in + fee: Pepe Reina (£6m), Mark Gonzalez (£4.5m), Boudewijn Zenden (free), Antonio Barragan (£0.25m), Mohamed Sissoko (£5.6m), Peter Crouch (£7m), Godwin Antwin (£0.5m), Jack Hobbs (£0.75m), Paul Anderson (£1m), Jan Kromkamp (Swap), David Martin (£0.5m), Daniel Agger (£5.8m), Robbie Fowler (Free).
Players out + fee: Vladimir Smicer (Free), El Hadji Diouf (£1.5m), Mauricio Pellegrino (Free), Gregory Vignal (Free), Antonio Nunez (£0.5m), Ritchie Partridge (Free), Milan Baros (£6.5m), Josemi (Swap).

2006-07 Net spend: £32.85m loss
Players in + fee: Craig Bellamy £6m, Gabriel Paletta £2m, Fabio Aurelio Free, Jermaine Pennant £6.7m, Dirk Kuyt £9m, Nabil El Zhar £1m, Alvaro Arbeloa £2.6m, Francisco Manuel Duran Free, Javier Mascherano £18.6m.
Players out + fee: Fernando Morientes £3m, Bruno Cheyrou (£0.5m), Dietmar Hamann (£0.4m), Carl Medjani Free, Antonio Barragan (£0.7m), Djimi Traore (£2m),Neil Mellor £1m, Jan Kromkamp £1.7m, Chris Kirkland £2m, Darren Potter £0.25m, Stephen Warnock £1.5m, Salif Diao Free.

2007-08 Net spend: £23.3m loss
Players in + fee: Andriy Voronin Free, Krisztian Nemeth £0.5m, Charles-Hubert Itandje £3.5m, Fernando Torres £26.5m, Yossi Benayoun £5m,Ryan Babel £11.5m, Emiliano Insua £2m*, Damien Plessis (£1m), Martin Skrtel (£6m).
Players out + fee: Florent Sinoma Pongolle £2.7m, Danny O’Donnell £0.1m, Luis Garcia £4m, Boudewijn Zenden Free, Djibril Cisse £6m, Craig Bellamy £7.5m, Mark Gonzalez £4.2m, Jerzey Dudek Free, Robbie Fowler Free, Mohamed Sissoko £8.2m, Gabriel Paletta Swap.

2008-09 Net spend: £6.45m loss
Players in + fee: Philipp Degen free, Andrea Dossena £7m, Diego Cavalieri £3.5m, David Ngog £1.5m, Robbie Keane £20.3m, Vitor Flora Free, Albert Riera £8m.
Players out + fee: Anthony Le Tallec £1.1m, Harry Kewell Free, Peter Crouch £9m, Danny Guthrie £2.5m, Scott Carson £3.25m, John Arne Riise £4m, Steve Finnan £2m, Robbie Keane £12m.

2009-10 Net spend: £4.95m loss
Players in + fee: Glen Johnson £18m, Alberto Aquilani £20m, Sotiros Kyrgiakos £2m.
Players out + fee: Paul Anderson £0.25m, Sebastian Leto £1.3m, Sami Hyypia Free, Jermaine Pennant Free, Alvaro Arbeloa £3.5m, Xabi Alonso £30m.

Manchester United total net spend 2004-2009: £27m loss

2004-05 Net spend: £20.3m loss
Players in + fee: Wayne Rooney £26m, Florent N’Galula Nominal
Players out + fee: Nicky Butt £2.5m, Luke Chadwick Free, Diego Forlan £2m, Bojan Djordic Free, Eric Djemba-Djemba £1.2m

2005-06 Net spend: £13.5m loss
Players in + fee: Edwin van der Sar £2m, Ji-Sung Park £4m, Ben Foster £1m, Nemanja Vidic £7m, Patrice Evra £5.5m
Players out + fee: Roy Carroll Free, Ricardo Free, Phil Neville £3.5m, Kleberson £2.5m, Roy Keane Free

2006-07 Net spend: £2.9m loss
Players in + fee: Michael Carrick £18.6m
Players out + fee: Jonathan Spector £0.5m, Sylvan Ebanks-Blake £0.2m, Quinton Fortune Free, Ruud van Nistelrooy £11m, Liam Miller Free, David Jones £1m, Tim Howard £3m

2007-08 Net spend: £24m loss
Players in + fee: Owen Hargreaves £17m, Anderson £17m, Tomas Kuszczak £2.1m, Nani £17m, Carlos Tevez Loan, Manucho Nominal
Players out + fee: Kieran Richardson £5.5m, Giuseppe Rossi £6.6m, Alan Smith £6m, Gabriel Heinze £8m, Ryan Shawcross£1m, Phil Bardsley £2m

2008-09 Net spend: £33.1m loss
Players in + fee: Dimitar Berbatov £30.75m, Zoran Tosic £9m, Ritchie de Laet £0.1m
Players out + fee: Gerard Pique £5m, Chris Eagles £1m, Mikael Silvestre £0.75m, Loius Saha Nominal

2009-10 Net spend: £66.5m profit
Players in + fee: Antonio Valencia £16m, Gabriel Obertan £3m, Michael Owen Free
Players out + fee: Cristiano Ronaldo £80m, Lee Martin £2m, Fraizer Campbell £3.5m, Carlos Tevez Released, Manucho Nominal

Chelsea total net spend 2004-09: £186m loss 

2004-05 Net spend: £87.6m loss
Players in + fee: Arjen Robben £12m, Paulo Ferreira £13.2m, Alex £5m, Mateja Kezman £5m, Tiago £8m, Didier Drogba £24m, Ricardo Carvalho £20.6m, Jiri Jarosik £3m
Players out + fee: Jimmy-Floyd Hasselbaink Free, Mario Melchiot Free, Jesper Gronkjaer £2.2m, Boudewijn Zenden Free, Neil Sullivan Free, Celestine Babyaro £1m, Marco Ambrosio Free, Adrian Mutu Free

2005-06 Net spend: £32.1m loss
Players in + fee: Asier del Horno £8m, Lassana Diarra £1m, Shaun Wright-Phillips £21m, Michael Essien £24.4m
Players out + fee: Mikael Forssell £3m, Scott Parker £6.5m, Juan Sebastian Veron Undisc, Mateja Kezman £5.3m, Tiago £6.5m, Alexei Smertin £1m

2006-07 Net spend: £37.7m loss
Players in + fee: Michael Ballack Free, Salomon Kalou £8m, Andrei Shevchenko £30m, John Obi-Mikel £16m, Khalid Boulahrouz £7m, Ashley Cole £5m (swap)
Players out + fee: Eidur Gudjohnson £8m, Jiri Jarosik £0.5m, Carlton Cole £4m, Damien Duff £5m, Asier del Horno £4.8m, Hernan Crespo Free, Willian Gallas Swap, Robert Huth £6m

2007-08 Net spend: £13.5m loss
Players in + fee: Steve Sidwell Free, Claudio Pizarro Free, Tal Ben-Haim Free, Florent Malouda £13.5m, Juliano Belletti £3m, Nicolas Anelka £15m, Branislav Ivanovic £9m, Franco di Santo £3m
Players out + fee: Arjen Robben £24m, Glen Johnson £4m, Lassana Diarra £2m

2008-09 Net spend: £6.8m profit
Players in + fee: Jose Bosingwa £16.2m, Deco £8m.
Players out + fee: Steve Sidwell £5m, Claude Makelele Free, Tal Ben-Haim £5m, Shaun Wright-Phillips £9m, Wayne Bridge £12m, Carlo Cudicini Free.

2009-10 Net spend: £22m loss
Players in + fee: Mineiro Undisc, Gokham Tore Undisc, Yuri Zhirkov £18m, Daniel Sturridge £5m (tribunal)
Players out + fee: Ben Sahar £1m, Frank Nouble Undisc, Andrei Shevchenko Free.

Arsenal Net spend 2004-09: £27m profit 

2004-05 Net spend: £2.55m profit
Players in + fee: Arturo Lupoli £0.2m, Manuel Almunia £0.5m, Vito Mannone £0.35m, Emmanuel Eboue £1m.
Players out + fee: Giovanni van Bronckhorst £2m, Martin Keown Free, Ray Parlour Free, Kanu Free, Francis Jeffers £2.6m, Igor Stepanovs nominal, Sylvain Wiltord Free, Rami Shabaan Free.

2005-06 Net spend: £5m loss
Players in + fee: Nicklas Bendtner undisc, Alexander Hleb £11.2m, Vassiriki Diaby £2m, Emmanuel Adebayor £7m, Theo Walcott £5m, Mart Poom undisc
Players out + fee: Stuart Taylor Undisc, Jermaine Pennant £3m, Patrick Viera £13.7m, David Bentley £3m

2006-07 Net spend: £0.7m loss
Players in + fee: Tomas Rosicky £6.8m, Fran Merida Free, Alexandre Song £1m, William Gallas Swap, Denilson £3.4m.
Players out + fee: Robert Pires Free, Sol Campbell Free, Pascal Cygan £2m, Ashley Cole £5m (swap), Anthony Stokes £2m, Lauren £0.5m, Sebastian Larsson £1m

2007-08 Net spend: £19.9m profit
Players in + fee: Lukasz Fabianski £2m, Eduardo £7.5m, Bakari Sagna £6m, Lassana Diarra £2m, Luke Freeman £0.2m Players out + fee: Fabrice Muamba £4m, Jeremie Alaidiere £2m, Thierry Henry £16.1m, Arturo Lupoli Free, Fredrik Ljungberg£3m, Jose Antonio Reyes £6m, Matthew Connolly £1m, Lassana Diarra £5.5m

2008-09 Net spend:£20.75m loss
Players in + fee: Aaron Ramsey £5m, Samir Nasri £15.8m, Amaury Bischoff Free, Mikael Silvestre £0.75m, Andrei Arshavin£15m
Players out + fee: Jens Lehmann Free, Mathieu Flamini Free, Alexander Hleb £11.8m, Gilberto Silva £1m, Justin Hoyte £3m

2009-10 Net spend: £31m profit
Players in + fee: Thomas Vermaelen £10m
Players out + fee , Emmanuel Adebayor £25m, Kolo Toure £16m.LINK

There are a couple of things I'd like to say about this comparison.

1. The comparison starts when Benitez took over. This is not right because, as magus pointed out the Mancs and Chelsea already had the core of their squads in their ranks so they only needed some tweaking and fine tuning (well for Chelsea you could see what fine tuning meant). Admitedly LFC also had a few players that were kept, but it only serves as a reminder to show there is no way to correctly quantify the transfers. So we compare apples with plums here. Even the fact that we have Cisse listed down as a "Benitez transfer" shows something is not right. 

2. I think the article is tedious, because the author is slagging the Morientes transfer, which everybody here agreed was a transfer master strike, until it just did not work out (for whatever reasons). Why compare the Morientes transfer with Rooney and Drogba and not to Berbatov for instance ? It was a journo choice because he expresses an opinion, which is anti-Benitez (fair enough, he is entitled to one, as we all are)

3. Browsing again through all those transfers, I was surprised to see that taken one by one, there are only a few really bad transfers I can point out: the Keane saga, Pennant, Itandje (had no idea he was that expensive !), Dossena, and we can talk about Aquilani. There were also good players who were sold  (as in john craig's best Ex-LFC 11) but they were sold with a profit (Alonso, Bellamy, Arbeloa, Crouch, Sissoko).

So then, why is our net spending so bad ?
We have -8 mil for Cisse who was not Rafa's transfer
Then we have -26 mil for Torres, -18 mil for Mascherano and -18 mil for Glen Johnson, -12 for Babel. Maybe Johnson and Babel are not everybody's favourite cup of tea, but we can all agree these four  are actually assets of the club and could easily recoup their value even after a few years of serving LFC. I think Babel has actually a very good image outside the Premier League followers, because he has done great in Europe and he is a Holland regular.

These 4 players cover more than 75 % of our "big spending". I don't know what the situation is with other clubs, probably Man U also has a similar situation, but I can't be bothered to do that kind of research, as I only care for our club. But to call Rafa a big spender is wrong IMHO, or at least this article and these figures did not convince me.

And just to add a disclaimer, I am not in the pro-Rafa camp, I think the Keane thingy is one of the major mistakes he made, and generally the activity in the last three transfer windows was disapointing. Relying only on Torres upfront was what caused LFC the title last year and then set the course for this season.

[Benny The Noon]

So greavsie your going to ignore the improvements on previous seasons then or just concentrate on this season and your not going to support him if he is our manager next season.

What improvements Benny? If we focus on ther league, last season was awesome, the rest have been poor. One challenge in 6 years. Five years of being done by Christmas (sometimes earlier) - FIVE! Is that good enough for you?

Please answer the question - Is our one league challenge in Rafa's 6 years in charge good enough for you? And by challenge I mean still having a chance at the league come February/March.

Nothing is good enough until we win the title mate - i grew up watching us winning it year after year and then also had to suffer the downs with souness and evans and then GH when we never got anywhere . While its been slow (it was always going to be ) i believe we didnt over achieve last season as oppose to played  to our true potential while still making mistakes - im willing to write of this season as a bad one - i know most wont and will hit rafa with a stick all day with it but i feel next season we will get back up there challenging again . It may well be a pipe dream and it may well end in disappointment but certainly not going to change my beliefs because of this season .

[Maickito]

Benitez has been given money though , thats why we have reina, agger, mascherano, kuty , babel , torres and co.  all very good players, the real issue here is why this team is where they are now........ our starting eleven is in the top 6 in europe........

Benitez wants 60 million this summer but his last 3 20million players have been Johnson , Keane and Aquailani--no of whom have set the world on fire. If I was in charge of the purse strings I'd be a bit cautious to commit 60 million to his kitty !

[kunilson]

i think he should be here unless we know we can get someone with good credentials in his place to do the job: win us the prem.

Then there's different factors involved. Rafa has his ways, the staff and players are used to him...he already knows the club, he knows the league (as in he has experience managing in it) and he more than knows about the pressures involved with our club in good times and bad.
Someone new could bring a fresh approach, hit and miss with certain players (rafa brought alot in so no matter what is said they may not ALL want him dead), new tactics and depending on who we get could have experience in sustaining good form (man management for example).

Then there's the money involved in breaking rafa's contract in addition to getting someone worthwhile, and nothing is cheap anymore...which is great news for our debt ridden club.

So what i think is, i support the club...if rafa stays its not the worst case scenario, as im sure he would be wanting to make this work more than anyone for his sake and ours because i know for certain he has genuine affection for the club.
but if we can somehow manage to get someone who is experienced enough for the job and can outweigh rafa in credentials id take him. who that is i dont know.

[Big Niall]

He wasted 38m last summer on a full back and a crock. He could have bought any full back for a couple of million (no world beater required) and spent 35m on a world class forward e.g. Tevez to play beside Torres (With SG and Masch in the middle) and to score our goals during Torres's his many injuries.

Only SG and Torres score goals regularly and Torres is often injured and SG getting more injury prone with the years.

Did Benitez not even google Aqualini's fitness before he spent a fortune on him? Why spend the balance on a full back leaving us with only one (injury prone) forward who can actually score.

The man is incompetant and should be fired - I am sickened the owners don't have a clause saying they can fire him if he fails to qualify for the CL.

7th place is a disgrace and he should be ashamed, do the honourable thing and quit, but these types never do, he'll hang on , just like Fred the shred for a massive payoff for being useless.

[Judge]

shameful position we are in

we'll finish 7th this year (looking likely), and probably a point above the bitters

[SouthCoastShankly]

If we focus on ther league, last season was awesome, the rest have been poor. One challenge in 6 years. Five years of being done by Christmas (sometimes earlier) - FIVE! Is that good enough for you?

Please answer the question - Is our one league challenge in Rafa's 6 years in charge good enough for you? And by challenge I mean still having a chance at the league come February/March.

united and chelsea have had far superior squads than us, especially in rafa's first few seasons here. 04/05 we finished 37 points behind chelsea. so by that token 05/06 was an excellent league season. 82 points and had two spells of winning 10 league games in a row. ok we only finished 3rd but that was a freak season. the winners will probably only have to get just over 82 points this season. we also won the fa cup. 06/07 was up and down and was masked by another CL final and 07/08 was another up and down season.

the point i'm making is that even when the league form has been inconsistent we've still had success elsewhere in the CL and cups which has kept the interest alive. this is by far the worst season rafa has had but one poor season after such a brilliant season doesn't make him a bad manager overnight. these are essentially the same players.

i still maintain to this day that we overachieved last season.

I'm confused. He had a good season followed by a bad season, but isn't a bad manager. But in the good season we overachieved.

Essentially Rafa could very well have been bad for the last two season but the combination of refereeing decisions, other team's form and player form has masked the root cause?

Just a thought.

[damjan193]

There is no golden sky at the end of the storm for us this season.

[Emerald Red]

He wasted 38m last summer on a full back and a crock. He could have bought any full back for a couple of million (no world beater required) and spent 35m on a world class forward e.g. Tevez to play beside Torres (With SG and Masch in the middle) and to score our goals during Torres's his many injuries.

Only SG and Torres score goals regularly and Torres is often injured and SG getting more injury prone with the years.

Did Benitez not even google Aqualini's fitness before he spent a fortune on him? Why spend the balance on a full back leaving us with only one (injury prone) forward who can actually score.

The man is incompetant and should be fired - I am sickened the owners don't have a clause saying they can fire him if he fails to qualify for the CL.

7th place is a disgrace and he should be ashamed, do the honourable thing and quit, but these types never do, he'll hang on , just like Fred the shred for a massive payoff for being useless.

See this is typical of the media proganda bollox that is regurgetated on this forum and other ones throughout. Bentez wasn't given 60+ million in the summer. The payments of Aquilani and Johnson are being handled through installments, and then again it's the round figure of 20 million that the media just loves to round things off with because it just sounds pricey, instead of actually getting the actual figures that he cost more like 15+ add ons  in total and Johnson was 11 million + the seven we owed still to Portsmouth from the Crouch deal. Very rarely have we paid the full amount up front for a player in excess of 10 million, certainly in Bentez' tenure as it just hasn't been there for him to pay up front with. Simple as that. More than half of the money Rafa made on Alonso wasn't even made available. You want to blame anyone for "wasting money" blame the two b@stards that are soon to vacate; the ones that put us into so much f*cking debt that aquiring a decent transfer kitty that could be spent at will was made virtually impossible.

[Owzat]

shameful position we are in

we'll finish 7th this year (looking likely), and probably a point above the bitters

Don't worry though, we can paint a silver lining on it by winning a mickey mouse cup and call it "successful" ! Next thing you know they'll be a DVD out called "the magnificent seventh" and we'll be closer to our bitter rivals in too many ways

[teamleader1]

As someobody said, we are usually out of the league by Christmas under Benitez.

I think if he is in charge at the start of next season, there'll be no belief in the squad, how can there be. At least with a new manager there is always a chance.

I really struggle to understand how even a minority of supporters still think that Rafa is anything special in the Prem.
Ive said it before that all thats happened this season is that all of Rafas shortfalls have been exposed and the chickens have well and truly come home to roost!

HIS and NOT the owners poor judgement in where the first team and the overall squad needed strengthening.
He's had most of the season to turn things around, but has persisted with the same boring, negative and one dimensional rubbish.
We are now the 33/1 rag in a 4 horse race to take 4th ffs!
Is this really what you expect from a top manager?

We need Rafa to go as much as the owners to truly make a fresh start and move the club forward under someone who will actually go out to win games and not just worry about losing them.

[puroresu]

disgraceful season.  Not even in the race for 4th.  No excuses and the Manager should be sacked.

[lakes10]

oh well we are in 7th now......is that so bad (and i am not taking the )

do we want the EL next year, all them games, could we be better if we just work on the FA Cup and the Prem.

it could be a very good thing for us in the end.

[teamleader1]

oh well we are in 7th now......is that so bad (and i am not taking the )

do we want the EL next year, all them games, could we be better if we just work on the FA Cup and the Prem.

it could be a very good thing for us in the end.

Yer having the blushyte taking the final EL place from us will just put the top hat on it! (does 7th get you in?)

Do the holders enter from the off?