Liverpool FC Forum

[lakes10]

BBC NEWS

The vast majority of English football supporters want a return to standing in grounds, according to a survey obtained by BBC Sport.

The poll, which is due to published later in March, found 92% want clubs to bring back safe standing areas.

Stadia in the top two divisions have had to be all-seater since the Taylor Report into the Hillsborough disaster.

Former Sports Minister Kate Hoey said: "A rational reappraisal of this issue is long overdue. It's time to talk."

Pressure for another look at the issue of terracing has been growing, prompting campaigners to demand a fresh debate.

The poll was conducted by Football Fans Census (FFC), an independent forum set up to gather and communicate opinion on football-related matters.

FFC co-founder Tim Gentles said: "This is the fourth time we have polled fans on this issue and support for standing in safe, designated areas has consistently been over 90%."

The sample for this poll was 2,100 fans from all clubs and divisions, 45% of whom were season-ticket holders.

Gentles added that a recent "state of the game" survey found the right to stand was the second most important issue for fans after ticket prices.

The survey's findings came as no surprise to Hoey, who tried to re-open the case for terraces during her tenure as sports minister in 2000.

But despite Tony Blair and other senior Labour politicians saying they were in favour of the idea when in opposition, they changed their position when in power.

As a result, Hoey was quickly silenced by Culture Secretary Chris Smith and replaced soon after by current incumbent Richard Caborn. She was also criticised by relatives of Liverpool fans who lost their lives at Hillsborough.

Ninety-six supporters died on 15 April 1989 when the Leppings Lane end at Sheffield Wednesday's ground became over-crowded at the start of an FA Cup semi-final against Nottingham Forest.

The official inquiry, conducted by Lord Taylor, blamed poor policing and inadequate facilities for the tragedy but the main recommendation was for the introduction of all-seater stadia and the removal of perimeter fencing.

On Wednesday, however, an undeterred Hoey is co-hosting a seminar on the issue at the House of Commons. And with German stadia in the Bundesliga providing a working example of how modern technology and effective stewarding can provide a problem-free mix of seating and standing, she appears to be on safer ground this time.

Organised by project management group Drivers Jonas, the seminar is a result of research the company commissioned to find out how satisfied fans were with the new stadia that it helped to deliver (grounds which include Middlesbrough's and Sunderland's).

The company's football expert Geoff Aucock said: "We asked fans about their experience at the grounds - sight lines, toilets and so on - but the most interesting thing we found was the interest in bringing back standing areas.
"It was an unprompted response as we purposefully did not ask that question. So we thought it was time to re-open the debate. Our part in this is just to make sure the decision-makers have the latest information on the developments in this field."

Hoey said it was "only sensible" to bring people together to discuss the issue and expressed her disappointment that the Department for Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS) and the Football Licensing Authority (FLA), the body the DCMS set up to implement the Taylor Report's recommendations, had declined invitations to attend the seminar.
"They are frightened to put their head above the parapet but it is a pity that they don't feel they can even come to debate the subject," she said.

"They have their fixed position, which was fixed 10 years ago, so I am not surprised they're not coming."

Indeed, the DCMS and FLA have been consistent in their objection to any review of their all-seater policy. And safe-standing advocates have accused them of being reluctant to engage in debate.

BBC Sport asked the DCMS to comment but was told to look at Hansard, the parliamentary record, for the minister's most recent comments on the subject.

In reply to a question from Coventry South MP Jim Cunningham on 8 February, Caborn said: "No new evidence has been presented to suggest that there is a single more effective way of achieving safety as well as public order than all-seater stadia.

"The government remains fully committed to the current policy. The football authorities have also made it clear they have no wish to re-introduce any standing areas at grounds in the top two divisions."

FLA chief executive John de Quidt, however, did agree to be interviewed and gave a forthright defence of the current legislation and denied that the example of standing areas in German stadia was applicable to England.

De Quidt said the example he looked at, Hamburg's state-of-the-art Volksparkstadion, where the terrace steps rotate 180 degrees to be replaced by seats when necessary, was too expensive and required too much land to be replicated in England.

He also defended the FLA's research into injury statistics at grounds. These indicate that injuries are decreasing and suggest that all-seater grounds are safer than grounds with standing sections.

Pro-standing campaigners, however, challenge the validity of these statistics, saying they include injuries suffered anywhere on the club's premises, regardless of their relevance to standing or even if the conditions existed prior to the game.

They also point to the inconsistency of standing being allowed at lower-division football and other sports and, most glaringly, music concerts at all-seater football stadia.

Amanda Matthews of pro-standing group Stand Up Sit Down said: "Those statistics are not worth the paper they are printed on. The authorities trot them out because they know their argument is weak. There is no evidence whatsoever that all-seater grounds are safer than ones with standing."

But de Quidt said: "The government has made its position clear, that is why we will not be attending (Wednesday's seminar).

It is a forum designed to generate more heat than light. There is a difference between entering into a debate and participating in a circus."
But with concerns over ticket prices, an ageing crowd demographic, falling attendances, inconsistencies in the legislation, a perceived lack of atmosphere at many grounds and the undiminished support for standing from fans, pressure is growing on the authorities to re-examine the all-seater requirement.

Wednesday's seminar is timely as an early day motion that calls for "the government to re-examine the case for introducing, small, limited sections of safe standing areas" has received cross-party approval.

And fans' group the Football Supporters' Federation (FSF) is set to present the DCMS and FLA with a dossier of new evidence that it hopes will force them to reconsider.

The FSF's Phill Gatenby is one of the authors of that dossier and has recently returned from a fact-finding trip to Germany, where he saw three Bundesliga matches, all with large, reasonably-priced, trouble-free and very passionate standing sections.

"Nobody wants to downplay the seriousness of what happened at Hillsborough or return to the hooligan problems of the 70s and 80s," said Gatenby.

"But football fans are different now and so is the technology. Even Lord Taylor said standing was not the reason for Hillsborough.

"The DCMS and FLA say it's about safety one minute, public order the next and then claim it's too expensive when those arguments fall down.

"The German example is new evidence. Surely it is time for everybody to sit down and talk about this."
bbc news

[lakes10]

In truth i dont have a problem with it coming back, yes i miss the old standing Kop but there is a big BUT. never ever ever put fencing back up like we had in the 80's, oh and a police force that treat the fans like humans would be nice.

[redmikey]

there has been a campaign on line for a while in this country and i believe it could be the thing that could save football from the apathy that surrounds it at the moment,
and while we do not feel it as much as other clubs due to the quality of our fans most other clubs are really feeling the pinch when it comes to loss of fan base

i remember the kop singing " you can stick your fecking seats up your @rse " all through the last season of standing and i think that if we got behind a campaign we could snatch football away from the middle class idiots that go to the game to be entertained and not to be part of something greater than the sum of the parts

i miss the tribalism that anfield used to have and i feel robbed that i stood on the kop as a short @rse for years thinking i will be the tall pain in the asre soon

www.standupsitdown.co.uk/    sorry not sure how to make it a link

[ivor_the_injun]

It'd certainly be one way to bring down ticket prices.

With tight regulation on the numbers being allowed into standing sections, good stewarding, and serious, active moves made to remove troublemakers, I'd be open to it.

Incidentally, I'd have thought by now that something was available that didn't mean that concrete flooring was the only option. Something a bit less bouncy than the sort of spongy tarmac you get around the swings in modern parks, or something. If the numbers in standing sections are safe, and there's no fencing (which would absolutely never happen again in this country, btw), the only predictable kind of injury you'd get on the terraces would be falling to the ground if the crowd surges from behind, and making the ground softer would make that less of a problem.

[lakes10]

I miss standing in the Kop, you would start off behind the Goal and by half time you could end up right atthe back or over to oneside but by the end of the game i would get back behind the goal, youu see i was not that tall then and i just had to go with the flow lol

[Sabre]

I'm 31 and I've known both the standing terraces and now the seats. I think seats killed the atmosphere. I preffer to stand watching the match.

As far as I've read from the Hillsborough tragedy, it was a consequence of a chain of big mistakes in security and decissions of the authorities, not the terraces itself. So it's about to plan it properly. Bring them back!

[NiftyNeil]

I can't see terraces ever making a return. The reason not being Hillsborough.
The difference between then and now is that we are now in a country that is health and safety mad - a "nanny state". Kids can't even play conkers anymore because it is deemed too dangerous. We adults wouldn't be trusted to stand during the match - what if we fell over or twisted an ankle. We're also part of a claiming culture at present - tha ambulance chasers would have a field day.
I'd love to see terraces return, but sadly it won't happen.

[stmichael]

I'm sure that you will agree with me that the issue of standing has been and gone. It's history and with good reason. Not only the issue of safety but because the whole body of supporters have changed from mostly men to more family and youngsters being targeted by the clubs. I can tell you that I have still got a few ribs that did not set right from my time in the annie. The atmosphere is what you make it and with so many turning up with the attitude "I've paid my money now entertain me" we may lose the atmosphere all together unless we make an agreement when you enter the ground you must be prepared to sing your hearts out game in game out. Sitting never stopped anyone singing so lets not mix up standing with atmosphere.

Therefore I for one would not welcome any standing areas within the new ground.

STANDING NO THANKS.

[grayghost]

Can,t rearly remember standing terices but am all for it. There is nothing worse when you stand up in a game at a exciting time say wicked cross fast break our one on one and you get some stargazer behind you saying sit down. Rearly pisses me of.

[puroresu]

Loved standing.  First game I went was away to Wimbledon in the Coca Cola cup.  Was only 12 and had a fantastic time. Lost on pens but what an atmosphere.

Stood on the Kop v Sheff Utd and could only see one end.  Again we lost but will never forget the atmosphere.  £4 it cost me and just went up to Liverpool on the day and paid through the turnstiles.  Miss those days!!!

[Red H]

I think a limited standing area would be a good idea.  While I think it has generally be a positive move to attract more families in to football grounds I can't help feeling it has given rise to a certain level of gentrification.  I don't see why both points of view can't be accomodated when designing a new stadium.  I don't go to a football ground to sit down and clap politely, but I don't see why other should not.

[SouthCoastShankly]

Standing is good fun but too unsafe. Even with surge protection barriers you get some sort of crushing. Especially so when you have the best part of 5-10000 in a section - all of which wantin to be at the front!

Bad idea

[66-1120597113]

NO WAY......SIMPLE!!

Its way too dangerous..

More atmosphere yes,because people are rammed together like cattle and more fit in!

Is it worth it? Do we really want another Hillsborough?

Seating is safer and thats how it should stay.

[Emerald Red]

For the new stadium, they should make a replicated Kop end (only bigger) that's a standing section only. The rest can be seated. I'd be happy with that.

[peterc1992]

I dont think that terraces will ever come back,they have made the changes all over europe and alot of clubs wouldnt be bothered.