Liverpool FC Forum

devaney » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:55 pm wrote:BR also seems to have taken exception to Ferguson's comments about Gerrard and the suggestion that he isn't a top top player given his recent response to Ferguson's book. Perhaps he has got it wrong as well. I certainly don't need some bitter old kunt to tell me how good Gerrard is or otherwise. He has an agenda. How many other teams did he write a chapter on ?

I think its already been said it seems to be a bit of gamesmanship by Rodgers though.

I sort of agree with Ferguson on Gerrard though, its a difficult one to explain. I think Scholes and Keane were superior midfield players to Steven. They controlled games better, positioned themselves better and generally were far more tactically astute. But Steven can fill in at right back, he can wide right or infront of the midfield and at times has quite frankly dragged the team kicking and screaming out of many bad situations. What we also have to remember is just because someone is the best we've seen... doesn't make them the best someone else has seen.

On your last point though about him having an agenda and writing a chapter on Liverpool I think you're looking at it very wrong. The hole point is he has done that, he didn't write about Chelsea or Arsenal...or even City in any great depth.

He's always come across to me as if Liverpool was the one team he truely respected and to an extent feared more so than any other. The one team he didn't want to get a head of steam going.

While I agree, on occasions he's had an agenda, I think its born out of loyalty to his club and a mixture of what I've just mentioned.

For me personally, as much as I dislike him intensely and dislike some of his morales, it earns him respect.

StuYesThatStu » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:47 pm wrote:

devaney » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:55 pm wrote:BR also seems to have taken exception to Ferguson's comments about Gerrard and the suggestion that he isn't a top top player given his recent response to Ferguson's book. Perhaps he has got it wrong as well. I certainly don't need some bitter old kunt to tell me how good Gerrard is or otherwise. He has an agenda. How many other teams did he write a chapter on ?

I think its already been said it seems to be a bit of gamesmanship by Rodgers though.

I sort of agree with Ferguson on Gerrard though, its a difficult one to explain. I think Scholes and Keane were superior midfield players to Steven. They controlled games better, positioned themselves better and generally were far more tactically astute. But Steven can fill in at right back, he can wide right or infront of the midfield and at times has quite frankly dragged the team kicking and screaming out of many bad situations. What we also have to remember is just because someone is the best we've seen... doesn't make them the best someone else has seen.

On your last point though about him having an agenda and writing a chapter on Liverpool I think you're looking at it very wrong. The hole point is he has done that, he didn't write about Chelsea or Arsenal...or even City in any great depth.

He's always come across to me as if Liverpool was the one team he truely respected and to an extent feared more so than any other. The one team he didn't want to get a head of steam going.

While I agree, on occasions he's had an agenda, I think its born out of loyalty to his club and a mixture of what I've just mentioned.

For me personally, as much as I dislike him intensely and dislike some of his morales, it earns him respect.

If you agree with Ferguson on Gerrard then all we can do is agree to differ. Keane and Scholes may have had different strengths to Gerrard but they were never better - NEVER. As for the accolades bestowed on Scholes when he retired I think players and the media will make very similar comments about Gerrard when he retires.We could go on for pages but I don't think we are going to convince each other to change their point. of view. It's Friday night so let's do something useful and crack open a cold one !! Cheers !! Have a good one tomorrow. Happy clappy signing out 

Agreed Devaney and Fergusons actions including the Suarez incident will mean I will never show him any respect.

He doesn't show many other people in the game respect.

devaney » Fri Oct 25, 2013 6:02 pm wrote:

StuYesThatStu » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:47 pm wrote:

devaney » Fri Oct 25, 2013 3:55 pm wrote:BR also seems to have taken exception to Ferguson's comments about Gerrard and the suggestion that he isn't a top top player given his recent response to Ferguson's book. Perhaps he has got it wrong as well. I certainly don't need some bitter old kunt to tell me how good Gerrard is or otherwise. He has an agenda. How many other teams did he write a chapter on ?

I think its already been said it seems to be a bit of gamesmanship by Rodgers though.

I sort of agree with Ferguson on Gerrard though, its a difficult one to explain. I think Scholes and Keane were superior midfield players to Steven. They controlled games better, positioned themselves better and generally were far more tactically astute. But Steven can fill in at right back, he can wide right or infront of the midfield and at times has quite frankly dragged the team kicking and screaming out of many bad situations. What we also have to remember is just because someone is the best we've seen... doesn't make them the best someone else has seen.

On your last point though about him having an agenda and writing a chapter on Liverpool I think you're looking at it very wrong. The hole point is he has done that, he didn't write about Chelsea or Arsenal...or even City in any great depth.

He's always come across to me as if Liverpool was the one team he truely respected and to an extent feared more so than any other. The one team he didn't want to get a head of steam going.

While I agree, on occasions he's had an agenda, I think its born out of loyalty to his club and a mixture of what I've just mentioned.

For me personally, as much as I dislike him intensely and dislike some of his morales, it earns him respect.

If you agree with Ferguson on Gerrard then all we can do is agree to differ. Keane and Scholes may have had different strengths to Gerrard but they were never better - NEVER. As for the accolades bestowed on Scholes when he retired I think players and the media will make very similar comments about Gerrard when he retires.We could go on for pages but I don't think we are going to convince each other to change their point. of view. It's Friday night so let's do something useful and crack open a cold one !! Cheers !! Have a good one tomorrow. Happy clappy signing out 

Unlike you, I'm still fairly young so I don't start till later on which has left me time to reply.

As I said earlier, I have no problem with people saying they rate Gerrard above Keane and Scholes. I understand it totally and can see why they would. I personally don't, and thats the end of it.

But when people start saying he's miles better than those two players... or even stupidly and wrongly include Lampard in this debate its embarrassing. Gerrard, Keane and Scholes all have major attributes and uses. They are all of a very similar level. So much so that I don't think its possible to say with any conviction which one is clearly better than the other. For me Scholes and Keane edge it, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if I had to take the "worst of the three" players.

On your point about people saying that about Gerrard, I accept alot of people will say what a terrific player he was. But I doubt you'll hear the same sort of accolades. There is a big difference in someone saying, "someones a great player" or really goo,d, or a true leader etc etc to saying things like... he's the best player they've played with or against, he's the most complete footballer I've ever seen, we all aspire to be like him etc.

For me you have different levels of players. Some players will be at the bottom of one level, like Alonso... then you have players who can "produce runs of form" that allow them to fritter between two levels, like Gerrard who goes between the top two. Most players do fritter between the lower tier of one level and higher of the next....

(all players at their best just to give exmples)

The Elite: Scholes, Keane, Vieira, Bergkamp, Owen, Ferdinand, Suarez, Torres, Shearer, Giggs, Drogba, Ronaldo
World class players: Gerrard, Alonso, Rooney, Carvalho, Robben, Makelele, Cech, Tevez, Ozil
Top class players: Essien, Ballack, Hyypia, Fowler, Campbell, Aguero, Bale, Cazorla, Vidic
Excellent players: Hamann, Lampard, Cole,
Very good players: Mascherano, Terry, Carrick,
Good players: Carragher, Kuyt,

All of the players can appear slightly better or give an "illusion" of them being better depending on a system or style that suits them and the players around them. For me, Carragher probably performed two levels above his ability for alot of his career due to being utilised in the right way, much as Lampard and Terry have.

Gerrard is in the elite list - absolutely no doubt about it. Ferdinand ?! Owen !?

Most definatly disagree with the list but its all opinions.

Stu mate I wouldn't disagree in principal with your reasoning. However I would totally disagree with your categorisation of the random selection of players you have listed. Lets face it if you asked a panel of professional footballers to categorise the same players you would get quite a variety of answers. One thing however is absolutely certain in my opinion, Gerrard would be one of the first names for many in the ELITE list. It is all about opinions but when a certain bitter whiskey nosed kunt throws in his two-penneth about almost anything Liverpool related then you certainly dismiss most of what he says regardless of how successful he has been as a manager.

Stu your logic is laughable.

Owen was a pace merchant who had a dodgy first touch but could finish (despite Hoddle's infamous 'he's not a natural finisher' comment).  Good player but not world class in a million years, let alone 'elite' (whatever the fu.ck that means).  I would have thought 'world class' was elite enough, but there you go.

For years you've criticised 'defensive midfielders' claiming that top midfielders can 'do everything', yet Makelele who rarely crossed the halfway line or passed forwards makes your 'world class' list?!  For me he actually was world class at what he did, but you're contradicting yourself there.  Alonso was even better though in my opinion,  He was as good as Makelele at screening the defense and snuffing out danger, but with a far better range of passing.

You've also in the past referred to Gerrard as LFC's greatest ever player, yet he's not in the elite list?!  So Liverpool football club, who have won 18 league titles and 5 European cups, have never had an elite player in any of their teams then?!  You've gone full circle in your views on Gerrard and it seems that the fact he's showing signs of age now seems to be clouding your judgement of how good he was at his peak.  Short memory.

JC - I think Stu needs to Google Stevie G's 100 Premiership goals and if they don't convince him that he is ELITE ++++++ then nothing will !!    It's a funny old game..........

JC_81 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:22 am wrote:Stu your logic is laughable.

Owen was a pace merchant who had a dodgy first touch but could finish (despite Hoddle's infamous 'he's not a natural finisher' comment).  Good player but not world class in a million years, let alone 'elite' (whatever the fu.ck that means).  I would have thought 'world class' was elite enough, but there you go.

For years you've criticised 'defensive midfielders' claiming that top midfielders can 'do everything', yet Makelele who rarely crossed the halfway line or passed forwards makes your 'world class' list?!  For me he actually was world class at what he did, but you're contradicting yourself there.  Alonso was even better though in my opinion,  He was as good as Makelele at screening the defense and snuffing out danger, but with a far better range of passing.

You've also in the past referred to Gerrard as LFC's greatest ever player, yet he's not in the elite list?!  So Liverpool football club, who have won 18 league titles and 5 European cups, have never had an elite player in any of their teams then?!  You've gone full circle in your views on Gerrard and it seems that the fact he's showing signs of age now seems to be clouding your judgement of how good he was at his peak.  Short memory.

1. Your assessment of Owen is laughable, not my logic, which you seem to think you understand...  Again you've based a judgement on a player on a stupid comment, some idiotic media muppet who's never kicked a ball in his life made. A dodgy touch? if you say so!

Agbonlahor is a "pace merchant", Owen was one of the worlds best strikers at the time. Enough said. Big big big difference.

2. Alonso was good at screening a defence. Makelele was exceptional and one of the few exceptions to the "DMC DRISIOIOW" ***** that gets spouted about. Something I've also "said for years". The lad had more than a "run around alot and give 100%" about him. A player who control's games, reads the game aswell as him, has the skill in tight situations that he has and had the ability to pick up clearances and recycle possession, as well as being able to start attack after attack is a world class footballer.

3. I've gone full circle on Gerrard? Really? So I've got Redlucasgoggles, Supersub and Yakka in one thread telling me I need to move on that he's effectively now a load of rubbish... and now you're telling me I don't rate the lad? I've said he's a f*cking world class player, clearly. If thats not praise enough then f*ck knows what it? 

I believe his contribution to Liverpool has made him Liverpool's best ever player, as a pure footballer I can think of quiet a few players who are better. I've never ever in my life allowed my judgement to be clouded just because someone is one of our own. I never have, and I never will. Steven Gerrard lacks the game intelligence to genuinely be considered in the absolute elite. While his game intelligence has always been good (notice it hasn't changed much since being a young lad) he now doesn't have the phsyical attributes to allow what he has to flourish in the same way. Again, something I've said since I first saw the lad. His positional sense, knowing when to press and retreat, ball watching from defensive corners and his ability to pick up clearances when sitting deep isn't as good as some would have you believe and is very slightly part of the problem why Liverpool are struggling after half time in alot of games.

So just to recap... in your opinion Owen was a better footballer than Gerrard, but also in your opinion Gerrard is still Liverpool's best all time player?

And in your opinion Makelele was a world class player despite playing in a position you don't think should exist?

Cheers.

here`s the list of liverpool v united games where keane and scholes played against gerrard -

17/12/2000     united 0-1 liverpool
22/01/2002     united 0-2 liverpool
02/03/2003     liverpool 2-0 united  (carling cup final)
05/04/2003     united 4-0 liverpool (hyypia sent off after 5 mins)
20/09/2004     united 2-1 liverpool (gerrard subbed with broken metatarsal)
15/01/2005     liverpool 0-1 united
1/09/2005       liverpool 0-0 united

thats 3 united victories, 3 liverpool victories and 1 draw, and in two of those united victories there were extenuating circumstances. i think fergusons memory must be playing tricks on him, hardly the domination he spoke about.

Alex Ferguson's book claims about Liverpool skipper Steven Gerrard rubbished by Zinedine Zidane
26 Oct 2013 22:31

Legend labels Fergie criticism of Kop star "very strange. For two or three years, he was the best midfield player in the world"

Zinedine Zidane has told Sir Alex Ferguson his verdict on Steven Gerrard is wrong.

Zidane, once acclaimed as the world’s finest footballer and now sporting director of Real Madrid, said: “For two or three years, Steven Gerrard was the best midfield player in the world.

“Even now he is playing at a high level for ­Liverpool and England.”

The 41-year-old Zidane (believes the comments of former Manchester United boss Fergie about Gerrard in his autobiography are “strange.”

Ferguson insisted that Liverpool captain Gerrard has never been "a top, top player."

But as well as hailing the Liverpool star as being the best in the world during his pomp, Zidane added: “Gerrard has been loyal to Liverpool throughout his career – which is great for them – but if he had wanted to leave four or five years ago then every top club in Europe would have tried to sign him.

"And they would have probably had to break the transfer record to do it.

“Alex Ferguson is obviously one of the most successful coaches the game has ever had. But I did find his comments about Steven Gerrard very strange. To say he is not a top player is wrong.”

Owen Hargreaves, another player criticised by Ferguson, has now responded.

Hargreaves’ career ended due to a chronic knee condition just one season after United signed him from Bayern Munich for £17million in May 2007.

And Ferguson wrote that the midfielder “opted for the easy choices in training,” and “was one of the most disappointing signings of my career.”

Hargreaves hit back on Saturday: “Anyone who knows me knows that professionalism is probably one of my strongest traits. A lot of people who rang me this week are very surprised at what he said.

“I had one very successful season, but after the treatment that summer I virtually never played again. My only regret was I didn’t go to him, but I didn’t realise the severity of it until it was too late.”

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/alex-fergusons-book-claims-liverpool-2642628

I cannot draw any other conclusion than the man is a grade "A" bitter old kunt. I just hope anybody that has defended Ferguson's idiotic comments about Gerrard has the ability to respect the views of one of the finest footballers the world has ever seen.

Even after he's retired he can't resist having a go at Liverpool FC. Apparently we need to sign 8 players to have a chance of the title. The man is one sad prick.

his comments about hargreaves are just as strange, at least he acknowledges gerrard could win a match on his own, saying hargreaves took the easy options in training is basically calling him a lazy ####.
i remember when england played portugal (i think it was in the world cup QF`s in 2006) when rooney got sent off. england were down to 10 men on a boiling hot summer afternoon against a side that liked to knock it around. hargreaves (and ashley cole) were outstanding that day, i`ve never seen a player run so much as hargreaves did in that game, i think he lost nearly a stone which is a hell of a lot when your a professional footballer and carry virtually no excess weight to start with.
rooney saw red early in the second half but despite that england managed to take it to pens mainly because despite the 30 degree heat hargreaves did the work of two or three men.
hargreaves was awarded the fifa MoM award and was the only england player to score his pen.
united signed him on the back of that performance (he was playing for bayern at the time) so to call him lazy is unbelievable.
injuries obviously blighted the lads career, you`d think ferguson would have a bit of sympathy.

devaney » Sun Oct 27, 2013 10:38 am wrote:I cannot draw any other conclusion than the man is a grade "A" bitter old kunt. I just hope anybody that has defended Ferguson's idiotic comments about Gerrard has the ability to respect the views of one of the finest footballers the world has ever seen.

Even after he's retired he can't resist having a go at Liverpool FC. Apparently we need to sign 8 players to have a chance of the title. The man is one sad prick.

We don't agree on much but that is spot on