Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:03 pm

On the subject of Nani, I've always rated him as having something and have said so many times. It is looking like he may never produce it as ferguson is apparently getting impatient with him, but I think he's a good player. Everyone has written Valencia off after five or six apearances, apparently he's the flop of the century. That said, he has got the winner in the last couple of games, and I did like him when he was at Wigan (he's no Ronaldo though obviously). They could have also fielded Vidic who was a good buy at 7 million, or the young Italian kid up top who was a nominal fee I should think. In goal I think the other option could be Van Der Sar who was a couple of million. The idea that they've spent hundreds of millions more than us, or that they were reigning Champions of the Universe when Rafa arrived just isn't true I'm afraid. The argument doesn't stand up.

by **Lando_Griffin** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:04 pm

phil_cool wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Ah yes 2005 was a good year for Europe. But how many points off the pace of the leaders did we finish that season? Somewhere around 30 if I recall. And last season?

No the revolving door policy doesn't work but that's because we spend more time shopping in bargain basement than on quality proven players. btw I am not saying Rafa hasn't made bad buys, just putting things in perspective that's all.

Man utd team first game of this season

Foster - £1million
Fábio da Silva - free
John O'Shea - free
Jonny Evans - free
Patrice Evra - £5.5million
Luis Antonio Valencia - £16million
Darren Fletcher - free
Paul Scholes - free
Nani - £14million
Dimitar Berbatov - £30million
Wayne Rooney - £20million
Wesley Brown - free
Ryan Giggs - free
Michael Owen - free

Total cost £86million

Liverpool first game of this season

Jose Reina - £6million
Glen Johnson - £18million
James Carragher - free
Martin Skrtel - £6million
Emiliano Insua - £1.5million
Dirk Kuyt - £10million
Javier Mascherano - £18million
Leiva Lucas - £6million
Ryan Babel - £11.5million
Steven Gerrard - free
Fernando Torres - £26million
Daniel Ayala - free
Andrei Voronin - free
Yossi Benayoun - £5million

Total cost £108million

Hmmm... I could have sworn Rooney cost closer to £30m, but I digress...

The point of my post was that Man Utd had THAT VAST MAJORITY of their players when Rafa signed for us, and thus DID NOT HAVE TO BUY THEM IN THE FOLLOWING YEARS.

That is why any comparison of monies spent since Rafa arrived here is meaningless pap, notably cited only by the A.R.I.B.*

The same group which mindlessly disregards the fact that Rafa has systematically improved the standing of this club since he arrived. The dumb punks who, because we dropped ONE place in ONE season, called for his head. (Even though that season's points total could have won the title in the pre-Chelsea billions years.)
The same group which rabbits on about wanting Mourinho and how he would win the title here "next season", while blatantly ignoring the fact that he has never succeeded in a national league without having the best players/richest owners - something we don't have.

The same group which has deep scars on their knees from sucking fergusaon's b*llocks, whilst failing to acknowledge that his early record, up to year 6, was p*ss-poor: 1989-90 finished 13th - a run of 6 losses and 2 draws within, despite outspending every team in the league. (1988-89 was 11th.)
He won the title in 1992-93 - 8 years after joining the scum.

Still - let's forget all that and just jump on Rafa's head... :no

*Anti-Rafa Imbecile Brigade.

by **Dazzer** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:10 pm

End of day its not a matter of how much each manager has spent it plays a part but largely it comes down to how well each manager has used that money.I am sure there has been managers that has won the league with less money then rafa and managers that won it with more but fact is rafa hasn't bought very well and has been left with a void of tallent at the club.

by **Emerald Red** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:52 pm

Dazzer wrote:End of day its not a matter of how much each manager has spent it plays a part but largely it comes down to how well each manager has used that money.I am sure there has been managers that has won the league with less money then rafa and managers that won it with more but fact is rafa hasn't bought very well and has been left with a void of tallent at the club.

Look at our starting 11 and then tell me he hasn't bought well and be serious about it. Our starting 11 is as good as any in the league. How much would Torres be worth now? How much for Mascherano? Alosno? How much for a fully fit Aquilani? Well and truely beyond our price range. In fact, you add the cost of these players today, and I dare say they'd add up to be considerably more than Rafa's net spend in the whole of the five seasons, or indeed his entire budget.

Here's the big difference that a lot of you that like to bang the same drum about when comparing Houllier's dead wood to our current crop of players: how many of them would go for 20 million nevermind 40 or even 80 million in today's transfer market? With the acception of Gerrard, the answer is none!

by **The Real Deal** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:03 pm

yeah but, when you say...."its time for us to stand up and be counted" we are talking about lucas levia, aurelio and kuyt in (midfield if stevie out) and bang out of form. voronin and n'gog.

by **Ciggy** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:07 pm

banana wrote:SELLING XABI IS A MISTAKE FORCED UPON BENITEZ BY THE AMERICANS

That quote is lost by so many, they just dont like rafa and blame him for Xabi leaving. If Rafa had the money to buy Barry then Alonso and barry would both be playing for liverpool and we would not have found ourselves in the position we are in right now.

by **tubby** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:24 pm

phil_cool wrote:
bavlondon wrote:Ah yes 2005 was a good year for Europe. But how many points off the pace of the leaders did we finish that season? Somewhere around 30 if I recall. And last season?

No the revolving door policy doesn't work but that's because we spend more time shopping in bargain basement than on quality proven players. btw I am not saying Rafa hasn't made bad buys, just putting things in perspective that's all.

Man utd team first game of this season

Foster - £1million
Fábio da Silva - free
John O'Shea - free
Jonny Evans - free
Patrice Evra - £5.5million
Luis Antonio Valencia - £16million
Darren Fletcher - free
Paul Scholes - free
Nani - £14million
Dimitar Berbatov - £30million
Wayne Rooney - £20million
Wesley Brown - free
Ryan Giggs - free
Michael Owen - free

Total cost £86million

Liverpool first game of this season

Jose Reina - £6million
Glen Johnson - £18million
James Carragher - free
Martin Skrtel - £6million
Emiliano Insua - £1.5million
Dirk Kuyt - £10million
Javier Mascherano - £18million
Leiva Lucas - £6million
Ryan Babel - £11.5million
Steven Gerrard - free
Fernando Torres - £26million
Daniel Ayala - free
Andrei Voronin - free
Yossi Benayoun - £5million

Total cost £108million

You also have to take into account that Utd have in place and have had for some time an academy capable of producing 1st class players. Rafa has only just sorted out the academy this year. It took Fergie 5 years to produce the first of that eventual bunch - Ryan Giggs and before you ask...yes it's Rafa's fifth year now.

So your point?

by **phil_cool** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 7:56 am

Lando_Griffin wrote:Hmmm... I could have sworn Rooney cost closer to £30m, but I digress...

The point of my post was that Man Utd had THAT VAST MAJORITY of their players when Rafa signed for us, and thus DID NOT HAVE TO BUY THEM IN THE FOLLOWING YEARS.

That is why any comparison of monies spent since Rafa arrived here is meaningless pap, notably cited only by the A.R.I.B.*

The same group which mindlessly disregards the fact that Rafa has systematically improved the standing of this club since he arrived. The dumb punks who, because we dropped ONE place in ONE season, called for his head. (Even though that season's points total could have won the title in the pre-Chelsea billions years.)
The same group which rabbits on about wanting Mourinho and how he would win the title here "next season", while blatantly ignoring the fact that he has never succeeded in a national league without having the best players/richest owners - something we don't have.

The same group which has deep scars on their knees from sucking fergusaon's b*llocks, whilst failing to acknowledge that his early record, up to year 6, was p*ss-poor: 1989-90 finished 13th - a run of 6 losses and 2 draws within, despite outspending every team in the league. (1988-89 was 11th.)
He won the title in 1992-93 - 8 years after joining the scum.

Still - let's forget all that and just jump on Rafa's head...

*Anti-Rafa Imbecile Brigade.

Which is exactly my point that there has been a revolving door transfer policy that just hasn't worked, while Man United have had continuity and have built on the players they had. We have been disgarding them and bringing in lesser players in our haste for change. For example we had Finnan at full back, Rafa brought in Josemy, then Barrigan, then swopped Josemy for Kromkamp, then brought in Arbeloa, then Degan before hopefully settling on Johnson. Thats 6 full backs in 5 seasons not counting Finnan, yet last season we were still forced into playing Skertel and Mascherano at full back.

At Left back we had Riise, Traore and Warnock, he brought in Aurelio who seems to be made out of glass, then Insua, followed by the unforgettable Dossena.

Left wing we started with Kewell or Riise, then Zenden, then Gonzales, then Leto, then Babel, then Riera. Not counting the number of other players that have played there such as Garcia, Gerrard, Dossena, Aurelio, Benayoun.

You could go through the whole team making similar lists, but the point is that maybe if we had kept some of the better players until we had suitable replacements we might be a lot better off, with better teamspirit and continuity.

Since joining Liverpool in June 2004, he has spent an estimated £256m on players and recouped £134m through sales. His £122m net outlay is outstripped by Chelsea’s over the same period but otherwise Benitez’s poverty pleas seem emptier than Nick Griffin’s skull. United are down just £27m on player trading and Arsenal are in profit by the same amount. And look at Benitez’s volume of activity: 79 permanent signings, 63 sales and 82 loans in and out. That all means Liverpool have completed a transfer transaction for every eight days and 18 hours of their manager’s reign.

from the Times.

Is it any surprise then that only two of the players that won the CL in his first season still remain, or that we have won nothing in the last few years.

How much have we spent in signing on fees and wages for all those players who were so quickly disgarded or even worse are still here with no hope that they will ever make the grade.

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 12:19 pm

phil_cool wrote:
Lando_Griffin wrote:Hmmm... I could have sworn Rooney cost closer to £30m, but I digress...

The point of my post was that Man Utd had THAT VAST MAJORITY of their players when Rafa signed for us, and thus DID NOT HAVE TO BUY THEM IN THE FOLLOWING YEARS.

That is why any comparison of monies spent since Rafa arrived here is meaningless pap, notably cited only by the A.R.I.B.*

The same group which mindlessly disregards the fact that Rafa has systematically improved the standing of this club since he arrived. The dumb punks who, because we dropped ONE place in ONE season, called for his head. (Even though that season's points total could have won the title in the pre-Chelsea billions years.)
The same group which rabbits on about wanting Mourinho and how he would win the title here "next season", while blatantly ignoring the fact that he has never succeeded in a national league without having the best players/richest owners - something we don't have.

The same group which has deep scars on their knees from sucking fergusaon's b*llocks, whilst failing to acknowledge that his early record, up to year 6, was p*ss-poor: 1989-90 finished 13th - a run of 6 losses and 2 draws within, despite outspending every team in the league. (1988-89 was 11th.)
He won the title in 1992-93 - 8 years after joining the scum.

Still - let's forget all that and just jump on Rafa's head...

*Anti-Rafa Imbecile Brigade.

Which is exactly my point that there has been a revolving door transfer policy that just hasn't worked, while Man United have had continuity and have built on the players they had. We have been disgarding them and bringing in lesser players in our haste for change. For example we had Finnan at full back, Rafa brought in Josemy, then Barrigan, then swopped Josemy for Kromkamp, then brought in Arbeloa, then Degan before hopefully settling on Johnson. Thats 6 full backs in 5 seasons not counting Finnan, yet last season we were still forced into playing Skertel and Mascherano at full back.

At Left back we had Riise, Traore and Warnock, he brought in Aurelio who seems to be made out of glass, then Insua, followed by the unforgettable Dossena.

Left wing we started with Kewell or Riise, then Zenden, then Gonzales, then Leto, then Babel, then Riera. Not counting the number of other players that have played there such as Garcia, Gerrard, Dossena, Aurelio, Benayoun.

You could go through the whole team making similar lists, but the point is that maybe if we had kept some of the better players until we had suitable replacements we might be a lot better off, with better teamspirit and continuity.

Since joining Liverpool in June 2004, he has spent an estimated £256m on players and recouped £134m through sales. His £122m net outlay is outstripped by Chelsea’s over the same period but otherwise Benitez’s poverty pleas seem emptier than Nick Griffin’s skull. United are down just £27m on player trading and Arsenal are in profit by the same amount. And look at Benitez’s volume of activity: 79 permanent signings, 63 sales and 82 loans in and out. That all means Liverpool have completed a transfer transaction for every eight days and 18 hours of their manager’s reign.
from the Times.

Is it any surprise then that only two of the players that won the CL in his first season still remain, or that we have won nothing in the last few years.

How much have we spent in signing on fees and wages for all those players who were so quickly disgarded or even worse are still here with no hope that they will ever make the grade.

A good point well made. I can accept that Rafa has been hamstrung at times by a transfer policy of sell before you buy but that alone does not account for the trend that has seen us replace capable if not spectacular players with some real dross. Forget rotating from match to match, the real story is the chopping and changing of the squad from transfer window to transfer window for me.

by **Sir Roger** » Mon Oct 26, 2009 3:33 pm

well done to lucas yesterday.He was everywhere. Played well.

by **banana** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 8:48 am

Here we go again. Another defeat and the fools go looking for a scapegoat. So Rafa it is.

Have you any idea how hard it is to achieve what Rafa has done with failing finances and a rotten squad which quite frankly never has been rebuilt since Souness dismantled the team twenty years ago.

We are no longer, and we haven't been for a while, a financial superpower. Man United and Arsenal are light years ahead of Liverpool. And Chelsea and Man C are ahead of us.

Are you shitting me. We have outperformed on the pitch compared to what we should do based on our finances.

Eventually it had to be corrected. There is no way a club in todays football could year in year out beat its bigger and richer rivals.

Next year without Champions League money will be like taking away 30 millions from the transfer budget. Which means we will have to sell to survive. The only two players I could think of worthy of a big fee would be Torres og Mascherano. Forget Gerrard, his value ain't that big anymore. He is aging and has started to drop like Carra. Kuyt and the like would only raise pennies.

This is the brutal world in which LFC resides. Make your choice.

The only solution as I see it is to try to hold on to what we got until the Americans are forced out of the club. Then it is time to regroup and evaluate the damage done. Until then, don't expect miracles.

by **NANNY RED** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 10:09 am

As you said mate we dont qualify an there gonna have to find that intrest payments from somewhere, An finish outside the top four the new sponsership deal is performance related on Champions league an all so loss of money there ,Im actualy terrified tbh every game is like playing Russian roullette

by **made in UK** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:50 am

I think its high time the players stood up and accounted for themselves.

by **Sabre** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 11:53 am

made in UK wrote:I think its high time the players stood up and accounted for themselves.

And the manager. The club as a whole have to stand up and be counted.

by **7_Kewell** » Mon Nov 02, 2009 2:53 pm

made in UK wrote:I think its high time the players stood up and accounted for themselves.

spot on. A LOT of our players are not playing well. Carra is a prime example.

Also, Masch isn't helping things with his spoilt kid routine he rolls out each week. Yes, we know you want out Mach, but FFS be a pro about it. :veryangry

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