Liverpool FC Forum

by **Sabre** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:17 pm

Bammo wrote:here's a chalkboard comparing Gerrard and Lucas for the Hull game. Which one was the worst passer again?

Hull Chalkboard

I like members of the forum defending red players, certainly I preffer that rather than jumping on a giving slack bandwagon.

For me those chalkboards are stats. Stats give information to try to model reality. The most basic stats say how many passes are ok or assists. Is that enough info? no. Then in the next layer you have those chalkboards in which you can see where the passes are done.

Is that enough info?

no.

You need another layer of information, where are the opposition players and the other team mates?

Is that enough?

no.

Let's put the players in movement.

Is that enough Sabre, FFS?

no.

What's the timing, could he give the pass earlier, did he wait too much, did he give the ball on front of the receiver so that he didn't have to stop his run? Was there a better option

Surely, that should be enough to analyse how a player passes?

No. We then must analyse the quality of the touch, the strength given to the ball, and whether the curve you apply to the ball helps the control.

Lucas' passing problem is not noticeable in the first information layers, and that's why a stat can say big lies such as suggesting Gerrard and Lucas are even comparable passing.

Anyhow, I welcome any attempt to defend a player of Liverpool who tries.

by **Bammo** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:41 pm

It's just never enough for you is it?

As you've said Sabre, merely looking at stats isn't enough because player contributions need to be put into context. For instance, Gerrard made a lot of sideways passes in that game. He could be criticised for that but there may have been no viable options further forwards to pass to.

Similarly though, the criticisms of Lucas need to be more in depth too. It's no good people saying "he only does 5 yard passes" or "he never passes forwards" if we don't know the context. By no means do I think Lucas is the complete player or is exempt from criticism. For me he isn't assertive enough in games and should have a more attacking approach, including shooting more from long range.

What I'm fed up of seeing though is unsubstantiated criticism. There are plenty of aspects to his game that need improvement and can be debated but when people post stuff like "he's sh.it at everything and should quit football" it's hard to get a discussion going

by **Festy** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 6:37 am

Bammo wrote:It's just never enough for you is it?

As you've said Sabre, merely looking at stats isn't enough because player contributions need to be put into context. For instance, Gerrard made a lot of sideways passes in that game. He could be criticised for that but there may have been no viable options further forwards to pass to.

Similarly though, the criticisms of Lucas need to be more in depth too. It's no good people saying "he only does 5 yard passes" or "he never passes forwards" if we don't know the context. By no means do I think Lucas is the complete player or is exempt from criticism. For me he isn't assertive enough in games and should have a more attacking approach, including shooting more from long range.

What I'm fed up of seeing though is unsubstantiated criticism. There are plenty of aspects to his game that need improvement and can be debated but when people post stuff like "he's sh.it at everything and should quit football" it's hard to get a discussion going

Good post Andy (aka andy_g). I agree with you.

by **Owzat** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:58 am

I see passing stats aplenty, the generally don't vary too much and the crucial aspect is not whether a pass was successful/completed but a) what happened with the ones that weren't and, b) whether the pass put the recepient in trouble, in the clear, was the best pass etc. ie you really need to see "what happened next" to get a fuller picture.

Like with shots, and tackles, they can make it look like one player has done more than another but do they highlight CRUCIAL tackles, or differentiate between shots blocked on the line, shots that result in a penalty, shots that are from distance straight into the keeper's gloves etc. Football has stats and plenty of use for them, but some of the match stats are not really good for much - doesn't mean they aren't interesting, just some could read too much into them. Certainly seem to be more prevalent at the moment than last season. Perhaps the case for the prosecution of blaming Lucas for everything and Aquaman being the answer to everything, the cure to the disease that is Lucas, is getting hotter. It sure beats blaming the manager, after all it's Lucas' fault he is in the side, that Rafa is trying to play the same formation without the right components to make it work.

I stand by my point that if he is the only player weak enough to deserve criticism then the rest should be pulling their weight more. Players have bad games, doesn't mean the team has to lose each of them. There are ELEVEN players in the side, so even if Lucas is so bad he has a bad game every game, that doesn't mean we have to lose SIX games. After all it isn't like he's scored 10 own goals, given away 10 penalties and let his marker go or passed straight to an opponent for another 10 goals. A lot of the goals we concede are from set-pieces or poor play, although in fairness a few have criticised the CBs as well but still we're not scoring enough goals and that can't entirely be blamed on Lucas. We've scored only once in the last four games, if you take out the big wins over Hull, Stoke and Burnley (all promoted last season or season before), then we've scored only 11 goals in the remaining 10 games.

09/10 Goals Scored

0 goals : P3 W0 D0 L3 F0 A5 (Won 0.00%)
1 goal : P5 W2 D0 L3 F5 A7 (Won 40.00%)
2 goals : P0 W0 D0 L0 F0 A0 (Won n/a)
3+ goals : P5 W5 D0 L0 F20 A5 (Won 100.00%)

So as I've long maintained, that isn't the first time I've done that set of stats, we don't score enough goals often enough. The two 1-0s were against Leeds of league one and Debrecen of Hungary, neither a side we should be scraping past and Debrecen got FOUR goals put past them I believe by both Fiorentina and Lyon who both beat us. For a more attacking outlook side, we're not scoring many that often and it seems to be only the likes of Bolton, West Ham, Burnley, Stoke and Hull so nothing much to brag about.

by **Sabre** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:15 am

Good post Bammo, myself I do like to "defend" players from that kind of criticism, but I have to admit you that during this football crisis I don't have the "strength" to do so.

by **Igor Zidane** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:08 am

: Lucas Leiva ready to step out of the shadows at Liverpool

Given that Lucas Leiva is regarded as a consummate professional at Liverpool, a player who trains with diligence and determination, the Brazil midfield player should be one of football’s least likely scapegoats.

But at a time when some of Rafael Benítez’s signings are being questioned as never before, he has become a lightning conductor for many of the frustrations on Merseyside as his team prepare for a mighty battle against Manchester United at Anfield tomorrow on the back of four defeats.

His detractors contend that he lacks the presence to dominate a key area of the pitch in the manner required of a club who set their sights on the biggest prizes. They pray for the swift arrival of the expensive, but unproven and only just fit again, Alberto Aquilani.

But what of the defence of the £6 million man from Grêmio? Lucas has mostly kept his head down while his critics have had their say.

But he has spoken this week about his relationship with the Kop, the unswerving support of his manager and the huge expectations that weigh on any footballer from Brazil.

Twenty-two is no age to judge a midfield player, certainly not one who has spent all but the past two years of his footballing life playing in a Latin American style, before being thrust into the Barclays Premier League when his career is still in the developmental stage.

And Lucas has not been helped by the fact that the job he performs in Benítez’s team is one of the least glamorous, allowing his more attack-minded team-mates to push forward while he and Javier Mascherano ensure that balance is maintained.

It is not the kind of stereotypical role expected of Brazilian footballers, with flair being sacrificed for functionality, but as Lucas points out, even the Samba boys require a water carrier.

It is a job he has performed well enough to have won the Bola de Ouro at 19 as the best player in the Brazilian league (as successor to Carlos Tévez, Robinho and Kaká), to have captained the Brazil Under-20 side and to have been called up by Dunga, the national team coach, last month.

“Everybody knows I had difficult times here, especially with the people who criticised me,” Lucas said. “What I would say, though, is that the style of football in the Premier League is totally different to Brazil. I know people sometimes expect Brazilian footballers to play a certain way — to have unbelievable skill, to be able to do tricks and be like Ronaldinho or Kaká, but I am in a different position, where you cannot do those things and you have to work for the team.

“This is my mentality, to try to help my team-mates. I cannot think too much of the criticism. All I can do is try and do my job and hopefully this will be good enough.

“Me and Javier have to be aware of the counter-attack because we have a lot of offensive players. We have to make sure that we give the defenders our support. Every team needs these kind of players.”

Opinions are not quite as polarised as they once were and although he is still trying to win over the Anfield crowd, there have been no more incidents such as the one during Liverpool’s home league game against Fulham last season, when he was booed by a section of his team’s fans. He could have had his spirit broken by such an episode, he could have allowed it to create a wedge between him and the supporters, but instead he put it down to experience and vowed to win them over.

Lucas would be the first to admit that he is not a fans’ favourite, but at least he has earned enough respect for his name to be chanted on occasion by the Kop, who, in the defeat by Lyons this week, instead turned their frustration on Andriy Voronin.

“Maybe I was low last year when I got booed at Anfield,” Lucas said. “But that is in the past. The supporters, especially the Kop, have been really good with me this season. They are helping me all the time and giving me confidence.

“I have heard my name being sung and it made me feel really good. It is special when the Kop sings your name, and I appreciate that so much. Now I have a good relationship with them, but the most important thing is about what is best for Liverpool, not what is best for me.”

In his darkest moments, Lucas was given the unconditional backing of Benítez, who insisted that he would come good.

This week, however, roles have been reversed, with player defending manager after Liverpool suffered their fourth successive defeat.

“We are in a difficult moment, but we are the ones on the pitch and it is up to us to improve,” Lucas said. “Rafa is a really good manager and now we have to try to win for ourselves, but also for him because he has been really good for us and for me in particular.

“He gave me opportunities and he gave me confidence, so now I want to pay him back by playing well, working really hard and performing as he expects me to.

“I have no doubt that we can win trophies. It is too early now to talk about the title. We know everyone wants us to win it because it has been so long since Liverpool were last champions, but we have to think of each game.

“It is all about winning games, building up momentum and then maybe we can talk about being in the title race come January.”

Tomorrow Liverpool have the chance to energise their faltering season and their challenge for the title that has eluded them since 1990.

The opportunity, though, comes against United, the champions, who, given the intensity of the rivalry between the clubs, will not be showing their opponents any mercy.

At the heart of the battle could be a personal duel between Lucas and Anderson, former team-mates at Grêmio.

When the contest was fought at Old Trafford in March, the Merseyside-based Brazilian came out on top in a stunning 4-1 Liverpool victory.

“That was my best day so far as a Liverpool player,” Lucas said. “It was a really good game for us. We went 1-0 down and that made our task even more difficult, but we stuck together, played as a team and we scored four fantastic goals through Fernando [Torres], Stevie [Gerrard], Fábio [Aurélio] and Andrea Dossena. It was a great feeling and hopefully we will have the same feeling tomorrow.

“It is an opportunity for the team to show our quality and to prove that we can be in the title race.

“I played with Anderson at Grêmio and for Brazil at the [2008 Beijing] Olympics and we have played against each other already in this country.

“We are good friends, but on the pitch I will think only of Liverpool, not friendships.

“He is really strong and quick — he actually used to play as a striker in Brazil but now he is in the midfield — and he has a lot of quality. But when you are playing against Manchester United you cannot focus on just one player because you know that they have quality all over the pitch.

“Now we have a big opportunity in a big game against a big rival and it is a chance for us to show that we can get involved in the title race. Most importantly, though, it is a chance for us to give an important victory to our fans.

“We are desperate for medals, all of us. I want to help this club make history by winning trophies, the sooner the better, but for now I would just be happy to win our next game.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol....970.ece

by **Sabre** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:32 am

Good article that Igor.

The problem with Lucas is not that he is or he isn't a good football player. He probably is and we might see him in a mid club of Spain or England doing well. The problem is whether he's good enough for a team that wants to win everything: League, cup, and Champions League.

And IMHO he isn't. He deserves all the support in the place that matters, the stadium, he certainly deserves not to be insulted, because obviously he's a player who tries his best, and you could certainly find points of his game, isolated games, and details to defend his game. But if you asked me: Would you have saved the 6M spent on Lucas on hindsight? the answer is yes.

That said, he's a red, I like the man, and I won't say stupid stereotype criticism such as "he doesn't play like Brazilians", in that sense, the defence the article does of the player is spot on.

P.S. Perhaps Lucas would do well in not thinking that much in helping the team and think a little bit more in releasing the football he thinks he have. By his words it seems to me a player that hasn't self confidence, and is afraid to make mistakes. And you can't play good football if you're afraid of making mistakes.

by **bigmick** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:46 am

Sabre wrote:Good article that Igor.

The problem with Lucas is not that he is or he isn't a good football player. He probably is and we might see him in a mid club of Spain or England doing well. The problem is whether he's good enough for a team that wants to win everything: League, cup, and Champions League.

And IMHO he isn't. He deserves all the support in the place that matters, the stadium, he certainly deserves not to be insulted, because obviously he's a player who tries his best, and you could certainly find points of his game, isolated games, and details to defend his game. But if you asked me: Would you have saved the 6M spent on Lucas on hindsight? the answer is yes.

That said, he's a red, I like the man, and I won't say stupid stereotype criticism such as "he doesn't play like Brazilians", in that sense, the defence the article does of the player is spot on.

P.S. Perhaps Lucas would do well in not thinking that much in helping the team and think a little bit more in releasing the football he thinks he have. By his words it seems to me a player that hasn't self confidence, and is afraid to make mistakes. And you can't play good football if you're afraid of making mistakes.

What he said.

by **Sir Roger** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:55 am

Sabre wrote:Good article that Igor.

The problem with Lucas is not that he is or he isn't a good football player. He probably is and we might see him in a mid club of Spain or England doing well. The problem is whether he's good enough for a team that wants to win everything: League, cup, and Champions League.

And IMHO he isn't. He deserves all the support in the place that matters, the stadium, he certainly deserves not to be insulted, because obviously he's a player who tries his best, and you could certainly find points of his game, isolated games, and details to defend his game. But if you asked me: Would you have saved the 6M spent on Lucas on hindsight? the answer is yes.

That said, he's a red, I like the man, and I won't say stupid stereotype criticism such as "he doesn't play like Brazilians", in that sense, the defence the article does of the player is spot on.

P.S. Perhaps Lucas would do well in not thinking that much in helping the team and think a little bit more in releasing the football he thinks he have. By his words it seems to me a player that hasn't self confidence, and is afraid to make mistakes. And you can't play good football if you're afraid of making mistakes.

There are three things which upset me about Lucas:

1. He is not a very good player. I dont mean hes shi'te, just that hes not someone I would seek out if he didnt play for us due to his lack of any discernible skills. Average at best (I'm being kind). I couldnt see anyone else falling over themselves to buy him

2. As he is an average player he should accept this and know his limitations. He shouldnt be trying anything he is not capable of. I would rather him get the ball and pass to a team-mate than try to be "skilful" and lose the ball. Or worse, do one of his strange tackles which gives the opposition the chance to score.

3. Rafa's unbending faith and stubbornness in playing him time after time even though points 1 and 2 are slapping him in the face

by **Benny The Noon** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:12 am

Lucas

Isnt Xabi and never was going to be , has had a hard role to fill his shoes and while not being a world beater or outstanding he has certainly played better than his partner .

by **made in UK** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:22 am

Benny The Noon wrote:Lucas

Isnt Xabi and never was going to be , has had a hard role to fill his shoes and while not being a world beater or outstanding he has certainly played better than his partner .

masharano has been poor but even still not as poor as his partner. Thats my take.

by **Benny The Noon** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:24 am

Masher in my mind made has had a poor start so far but he has before and come through it , tommz could be the perfect game for him to get back to form .

by **Sabre** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 11:27 am

made in UK wrote:
Benny The Noon wrote:Lucas

Isnt Xabi and never was going to be , has had a hard role to fill his shoes and while not being a world beater or outstanding he has certainly played better than his partner .

masharano has been poor but even still not as poor as his partner. Thats my take.

Yes I agree that Mascherano thinking in his wife, pressed by Argentina and below his very best is still much better than Lucas and actually better than most premier holding midfielders.

Like in the past, I have problems to say Mascherano's game is poor, and I think we will be talking about a great Liverpool midfield hopefully with the Italian, Gerrard and Mascherano. I hope sooner rather than later for the well being of the club.

by **Kerry07** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 4:35 am

Lucas, bless him, with his lack of talent, as a slow, static, 2 yard side pass merchant, who cant score, cant create, no passing range, cant tackle, hides... is the prime reason for results and the problems on the field. Unfortunately hes in the MOST crucial position in the team.. the link man, and his presence has devastating effects on the performance of team mates.

We have made ONE change from the team that garnered 86 points last season, Lucas in for Alonso...we lost our deep playmaker, the pivot of the team that glued the whole damn thing together, and replaced him with a brazilian carthorse (who expected to be sold in the Summer)

Learned fans of the club know that Alonso was the single most crucial player in the team, simply because he was the brains that made us function. Gerrard gets the headlines, Torres the goals, while the quiet, unassuming midfield maestro Alonso with his metronomic passing, knit the whole team together, taking the ball of the defence, then launching passes long and short to start the attacks... the perfect link man.

We were OUTCLASSED a grand total of ONE time last year... Chelsea at home in the 1st leg... and what happened that day?

? Guus Hiddink PINPOINTED Alonso and put two men on him (not on Gerrard, not on Torres) and destroyed at source what made us tick. We were battered.. because the fulcrum of the team was removed. Chelsea DOMINATED possesion that day (starved our attackers of ball, ala what Barca did to Man U in CL final) and controlled the game that our first team had not seen since Valencia did so in 2002 (pre Alonso). We have lost games in the past 5 years, but very very rarely outclassed as Alonso made sure we had a large degree of control in games... that control has now gone with his departure and we are now not just losing (that happens to all top teams) we are being outclassed, Fiorentina particularly unbearable.

Last year we lost 2 times in the league, this year we've lost 5 and its October 25th. What amuses me is someone mentioned that Lucas played at OT in the 4-1... so he cant be :censored:

. Lets look at that game.. Man U 56% possession, so we bypassed midfield, what won it for us was the sublime combination of Gerrard/Torres in attack... and two long ball clearances from defence that set up two goals. First goal...central defensive long ball.. Vidic :censored:

up, Torres profits and puts it away. Second...Gerrard one two with Torres.. penalty, Gerrard scores. Third.. Aurelio interplay with Gerrard.. Vidic takes him down, Aurelio scores from free kick. Fourth.. Reina long ball.. Dossena latches on and scores. Likewise when we beat Forest 5-0 in 1988 Gary Ablett being in the team shouldn't merit anything, Lucas for being at OT shouldnt either.. its called "winning inspite of, not because of". When his solitary pass vs the laughable defensive shambles that is Newcastle is brought up, that pretty much sums up Lucas inadequacy as theres nothing else.

Back on topic...people question our defence. LUNACY !. This is the same defence that has kept more clean sheets than any other over the last 5 years. The difference this year is WHATS NOW INFRONT OF THEM. Two key aspects.. firstly without Alonso, there is now no one who sits infront of the back 4, control that zone with calm and composed possession.. (note the PANIC in that area against Lyon). Secondly, without Alonso, there is no one to demand the ball off the defence, someone who dictates play...hence Carra now having to play HOOFBALL for the first time in 5 years, which gives it straight back to the opposition...so the ball keeps coming back at the defence. Lyon had 17 SHOTS at Anfield... again... 17 SHOTS. The defence done brilliantly to only concede 2.

Its mission impossible for a defence if the central midfield is pissweak (think back to Kaka having free reigns in the 1st half Istanbul to thread passes through as there was no Hamann to nullify him). We do have that same destroyer in Mascherano... but we no longer have the man alongside him to control possession, the fulcrum that glued the team together aint there... instead we have a toothless player in Lucas, who hides (will make his customary 2 yard side pass and then avoid getting open to again recieve it, unlike Alonso who after making a pass ALWAYS ran into space to make himself available)

Carra is not a footballer... he has zero ability on the ball, but what is he (and still is) is a world class stopper, supreme in the tackle and organising the backline (years spent watching Baresi has honed his awareness). But for Carra now to have to start passing the ball again (for the first time pre Alonso) is scandalous, unfair on him.. and a huge waste. Thats what hes having to do now theres no one infront of him to initiate play. As a result we give away possesion frequently and now Carra and co are facing double the amount of attacks than previous seasons.... again, Lyon 17 SHOTS.

So.. the devastation Lucas and his nothingness causes to the defence is evident. Furthermore.. he destroys much of the attack because his lack of passing range means Gerrard HAS to come deep himself (previously he could stay 30 yards from goal as a long Alonso pass would find him) which takes him away from near the goal where hes at his most dangerous. Gerrard going back also isolates Torres, also the likes of Kuyt, Benayoun etc are having to come deep as again they are starved of ball as there aint an Alonso anymore to find them. The entire team is screwed over.. because the fulcrum is missing. Its the new attacking fullbacks Johnson/Insua that have added to our offence this season.. central midfield theres nothing. Aquilani was bought to replace Alonso... its IMPERATIVE that he is the very man to do so...we cannot function competitively week in week out otherwise.

Yes some of our fans feel sorry for Lucas because of the mass ridicule he gets from everyone outside the club due to his lack of ability... and while the sympathy card is used toward him, its essential to rid the team of such inadequacy.

by **fivecups** » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:56 am

That's actually a brilliant post. Really enjoyed reading it. Particularly enjoyed the part about how critical Lucas's position is to the team, I'd hoped earlier in the season that he would grow into the role and start to become more of a lynch-pin in our midfield. He was never going to directly replace Xabi, he's not a deep lying playmaker, but he hasn't begun to influence our play as I'd hoped he would.

Also the part where you mentioned us now being outclassed by teams is bang on, and worries me as much as the sheer number of defeats we've had this season.

Great read, would really like to see you post more.

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