Liverpool FC Forum

by **DrPepe** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:18 am

heimdall wrote:
bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:I didn't hear people saying United were missing Ronaldo after they lost at Burnley.

Well if the media in England didn't come to that conclusion there is something wrong with them. I watched the last hour or so of that, and Man Utd were missing him like someone who's missing something a lot (I can't think of a metaphor right now).

They missed him in that game unbelieveably. Had he have been playing, he would have got them a penalty and probably scored one of those silly free kicks as well (which I notice Drogba seems to have perfected during the close season). Apparantly you hit it on the valve or something, I don't think they'd invented it when I played football.

I'm fairly certain that the media have commented on Manure's loss of Ronaldo. Manure look much weaker at the moment and anybody who thinks than Fergie chose not to spend the £80 million is very very delusional.

agree with that

my personal theory is that ORN spent his money buying big last season , as he knew that the Ronaldo money was on it's way

ie. He got berbatov, the young/expensive croat defenders on credit

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:18 am

stmichael wrote:How people can draw conclusions after 4 games is beyond me.

I think you can draw SOME conclusions after four matches. Clearly we are going to need to play much better than we currently are in order to win it for instance, I would venture so too will the Mancs. It's whether or not each team can which is the hard bit.

Equally, if Chelsea and Arsenal (and probably even Tottenham too) continue playing as well as they are, they'll very likely go close to winning it. It's hard though to imagine Tottenham for sure lasting the course, while Arsenal have cried wolf a few times recently as far as being ready for a challenge is concerned.

Some conclusions though are possible after four matches. Johnson is a better player than Arbeloa is another unshakeable conclusion, as is the fact that Alonso is a better player than Lucas. It's only early, but you can draw some conclusions I think.

by **stmichael** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 11:35 am

bigmick wrote:if Chelsea and Arsenal (and probably even Tottenham too) continue playing as well as they are, they'll very likely go close to winning it. It's hard though to imagine Tottenham for sure lasting the course, while Arsenal have cried wolf a few times recently as far as being ready for a challenge is concerned.

Chelsea look good (imo they've easily got the best squad) but they started like an express train last year and look what happened. They've also had a very favourable start in terms of fixtures (Hull, Sunderland, Fulham, Burnley) and you can't overlook the African Nations Cup later in the year when they'll lose four key players.

We'll find out a lot about Spurs and Man City over the next two games in terms of whether they can challenge the top 4 or not. Spurs have United and Chelsea next two games where as City have Arsenal and United. Arsenal play City next up aswell so there's gonna be points dropped left right and centre.

We will get better without doubt. We started pi$$ poorly last season aswell but somehow managed to scrape the results undeservedly. We the returned from this international break and beat United without our two best players. I expect us to really kick on after the break. The fixtures could hardly be kinder (Burnley, West Ham, Hull) before going into a huge October when we face Chelsea and United.

by **heimdall** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:58 pm

I think either Man City or Tottenham will give us or Arsenal a real race for the 4th spot.

by **Owzat** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:07 pm

stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:
stmichael wrote:I didn't hear people saying United were missing Ronaldo after they lost at Burnley.

Well if the media in England didn't come to that conclusion there is something wrong with them. I watched the last hour or so of that, and Man Utd were missing him like someone who's missing something a lot (I can't think of a metaphor right now).

They missed him in that game unbelieveably. Had he have been playing, he would have got them a penalty and probably scored one of those silly free kicks as well (which I notice Drogba seems to have perfected during the close season). Apparantly you hit it on the valve or something, I don't think they'd invented it when I played football.

I agree with you Mick. Without him they're miles weaker, even a blind man can see that. Poeple say we overrely on Gerrard and Torres, jesus they're going to be completely reliant on Rooney this season.

The point is, the media won't mention it because it's United. They were garbage against Arsenal but somehow won thanks to two howlers. The day after people in the media were just saying "yeah they were the poorer team but they won, that's why they've won 11 titles blah blah blah". At the same time we played average and won and yet "we were lucky and don't look anything like potential champions".

There's no consistency in the media over here. How people can draw conclusions after 4 games is beyond me.

They stuffed Wigan as usual, otherwise it is 1-0 win over Brum (newly promoted), 0-1 defeat to Burnley and a squeaky 2-1 win over Arsenal having been outplayed and relying on an own goal and a slightly dodgy penalty.

So the signs are there, unconvincing in 3/4 of their games. You could say four games in is impossible to judge champions, champions league and relegation fodder, but you can't just disregard the games as if they are pre-season. They COUNT towards the league, teams may improve but they may also get worse.

by **Owzat** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 1:09 pm

stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:if Chelsea and Arsenal (and probably even Tottenham too) continue playing as well as they are, they'll very likely go close to winning it. It's hard though to imagine Tottenham for sure lasting the course, while Arsenal have cried wolf a few times recently as far as being ready for a challenge is concerned.

Chelsea look good (imo they've easily got the best squad) but they started like an express train last year and look what happened. They've also had a very favourable start in terms of fixtures (Hull, Sunderland, Fulham, Burnley) and you can't overlook the African Nations Cup later in the year when they'll lose four key players.

Their fixtures have been kind, they've also looked a lot more convincing second half than first from what I've heard and seen. The pick of their results was Fulham, but even Fulham aren't world beaters (didn't we win at their's last season?)

by **Fauxy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:41 pm

Owzat wrote:
stmichael wrote:
bigmick wrote:if Chelsea and Arsenal (and probably even Tottenham too) continue playing as well as they are, they'll very likely go close to winning it. It's hard though to imagine Tottenham for sure lasting the course, while Arsenal have cried wolf a few times recently as far as being ready for a challenge is concerned.

Chelsea look good (imo they've easily got the best squad) but they started like an express train last year and look what happened. They've also had a very favourable start in terms of fixtures (Hull, Sunderland, Fulham, Burnley) and you can't overlook the African Nations Cup later in the year when they'll lose four key players.

Their fixtures have been kind, they've also looked a lot more convincing second half than first from what I've heard and seen. The pick of their results was Fulham, but even Fulham aren't world beaters (didn't we win at their's last season?)

Yeah they have had an easy lineup but we should also remember that in these games they have conceded goals and have found it difficult to break teams down.

I dont think Ancelotti is making the right choice playing them in a diamond because they are almost wasting the use of players like Lampard.

Still though they probably have the best squad in the premier league and I would have them down as favorites.

by **NANNY RED** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:41 am

I know this is the wrong thread but i forgot to tell you have a guess who i had a drink with on me holidays , none other than Hirstow Stoichkov , what a fecking player,

by **Effes** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:21 am

NANNY RED wrote:I know this is the wrong thread but i forgot to tell you have a guess who i had a drink with on me holidays , none other than Hirstow Stoichkov , what a fecking player,

A loon as well, by all accounts.

by **desmdlow** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 9:45 am

I think alonso is the type of player, when he play with quality team he will shine. He tends to start the attack by a long pass or through pass. That is why i think some may feel he is overated.. He cannot run the game by himself, he need quality wide/front players to run into space for him to pass.

by **Judge** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:16 am

john craig wrote:Every newspaper you read and every pundit you are forced to listen to these days seem to make reference to Alonso's departure as the main reason for our poor start this season. While I agree that the midfield is a problem at the moment, that has as much to do with Mascherano underperforming and Lucas blatantly not being up to it (never has been) as it has to do with Alonso's sale.

selling alonso meant we are playing lucas

therefore, the loss of alonso is significant and a contributary factor to our poor form so far in the losses weve had.

by **DrPepe** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 10:46 am

If I was one for "stating the bleeding obvious" and pronouncing it as an astute hypothesis, I would call the currently huge number of posted replies with similar content to this one as espousing the "easy scapegoat theory"

by **Judge** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 11:02 am

DrPepe wrote:If I was one for "stating the bleeding obvious" and pronouncing it as an astute hypothesis, I would call the currently huge number of posted replies with similar content to this one as espousing the "easy scapegoat theory"

i scapegoat Dr Pepe

by **DrPepe** » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:15 pm

Judge wrote:
DrPepe wrote:If I was one for "stating the bleeding obvious" and pronouncing it as an astute hypothesis, I would call the currently huge number of posted replies with similar content to this one as espousing the "easy scapegoat theory"

i scapegoat Dr Pepe

it's always been my ambition

by **fivecups** » Sun Sep 06, 2009 11:49 am

john craig wrote:Every newspaper you read and every pundit you are forced to listen to these days seem to make reference to Alonso's departure as the main reason for our poor start this season. While I agree that the midfield is a problem at the moment, that has as much to do with Mascherano underperforming and Lucas blatantly not being up to it (never has been) as it has to do with Alonso's sale.

I think some balance has to be brought to this debate as it's starting to irritate me a bit. Firstly, Alonso wanted to go and we got a pretty good price for him if we're honest. I heard one 'respected journalist' (not by me though) on Sky's sunday supplement over the weekend saying we 'shouldn't have taken 30 million for him' and 'he was Liverpool's most important player'!! Absolute sh.ite. This is the same media that have digs every time we win saying that we are overly reliant on Gerrard, then Gerrard and Torres. I can't remember any one (pundit, journalist, ex-player etc) saying that Alonso was our most important player, or most influential player last season until after he had left. Why were the papaers not saying last season that we were overly reliant on Alonso then??

What I'll say next will undoubtedly upset a few folk on here, but imo Alonso is an overrated player. Overrated by Madrid who paid too much, overrated by the media (in HINDSIGHT only) and overrated by our own fans, who seem to have forgotten that he was distinctly average for two entire seasons before he got a kick up the backside last season and then produced a bit of form. He is still a quality player no doubt, but lets get it into perspective. His style never won everyone over. There were always fans who wished he'd get forward more or contribute more in terms of goals and assists. There were always those who thought he sat too deep and that it hindered our attacking play. But suddenly all that is forgotten and his departure is the reason we will be fighting to scrape into the top 4 rather than challenge the title?? No way.

His loss is felt mainly because there are no decent backup midfielders in the squad, at least until Aquilani is fit. Let's judge how big a loss Alonso really is after we've had a chance to assess his replacement. In the meantime we just need to knuckle down and dig out the wins we need to keep us in the running.

Yea I saw that on Sunday supplement last week. £30 million for Alonso was good business by us simply because the player was dying to get away. Last season a lot of people were saying they would have happily have sold him for £18 million. I also agree that no pundits were claiming he was our most important player until he left. There were some on here who thought he was last season but looking back I think it was clearly Gerrard. I think you could make some arguement that he was more important than Torres as he was injured more but thats not the point of this thread.

Your view that Alonso is overrated certainly doesn't upset me either. It's your opinion and if Aquilani slots in and we go on to win the league you may be proven right. However, I really feel the opposite when it comes to Xabi. I think he's world class. I can't think of anyone else that plays his role as well as he does. I know that Stevie described it as a 'mega-blow' when he left. He's also become a regular for Spain, pretty impressive when you think they could also have Xavi, Iniesta and Fabregas in central midfield. Whilst I think we got good money for him I also think it was money well spent by Real Madrid. I think it was Connovar who said it was a lot of money for him to warm their bench but I reckon that at the end of the season he'll be talked about as one of their most important players, and that he'll feature in almost every game barring injury. I watched their first match and he was playing the exact same role that he did for us, except he was supplying Kaka, Ronaldo and Benzema instead of Stevie and Torres.

I think there's no question that his absence has been accentuated by a lack of credible alternatives and hope that Aquilani can live up to the massive expectation that has already gathered but for me Alonso was top quality and he'll continue to show that at Real and in the WC for Spain.

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