Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 5:38 am

What is it about him which stirs fans up so? Hardly a day goes by without someone on the forums referring to Gerrard or more particularly to people who praise him up in a derogatory manner and I wonder why? Is it because fans of other teams have unfairly labelled us a "one man team", is it the "Stevie me" stuff, or perhaps the sense that some "fly by night" fans from outside the city of Liverpool know and appreciate only Gerrard and miss all the other good things about the club?

For my part, one of the many charges which gets thrown at me from time to time is that I'm trying to "make myself look clever". I've consistently said though that Gerrard is by a distance our best and most influential player, which is neither a statement of Earth shattering insight nor particularly controversial (or at least it shouldn't be IMHO), because it is absolutely glaringly obvious to anybody who has watched us play. Far from "having a w..." over Gerrard's explots though, I just appreciate that he's one of the best players which have ever played for the club, and IMHO the best midfielder.

Something posted on another thread today got me thinking. It was this, quoted from the BBC:

Robbo Robsons BBC blog:

"4. Liverpool have their best chance in a long time of lifting the Premier League.
FALSE. They don't. They can't rely on friendly sending-offs and late pushes to nick wins this season. If I was Steven Gerrard I'd be wondering where Benitez finds the gall to suggest I need to up me game to get the team winning again. If it wasn't for Gerrard, Benitez would've been out of a job long ago. It's like an Archbishop blaming Jesus for the state of Christianity."

On his point about Rafa asking Gerrard to pull his socks up, I must admit the thought crossed my mind too. Saying Rafa would have been out of a job if it wasn't for Gerrard might be a bit strong, but lets look at it.

We've won two trophies in five seasons under Rafa, the first of which was the Champions League. In the group stages we were on our way out against Olympiacos. We were leading 2-1 but needed to win by two clear goals, with only moments left. Up stepped Gerrard fro 30 yards out and running onto a loose ball (laid off by someone but I can't remember), smashed home the winner, causing Andy Gray to utter the immortal words "Good Yer Blooming Son!!!" (or something like that anyway). In the final, after being utterly outplayed in the first half we were 3-0 down. We needed inspiration from somewhere, needed a goal and up stepped the captain to score with a top header. The team were invigorated, Smicer got the second before Gerrard burst past the cave man bloke and won the penalty which brought us level. As time went on, legs tired and Milan brought on a tricky winger whose name escapes me to take advantage. Benitez pulled Gerrard back to right back, and that was the end of that idea. At the end of the match, he took a penalty and scored of course and the rest, Jerzy Dudek etc etc is history.

We also won the FA CUp final. In this one we were 2-0 down before we'd really got going. We needed something from somewhere and Cisse got himself a goal. From there we were on top, and before long Gerrard had smashed in the equaliser with a goal very similar to the one at the weekend. Before long, a Pepe Reina mistake gifted them the lead. It looked like we were all done as the game drifted into injury time, before Gerrard smashed in the equaliser from 35 yards with one of the best goals ever scored in an FA Cup final. From there there was only one winner as Reina attoned for his earlier mistake.

In both matches, we aren't just talking "played well" or "scored a goal" we are talking absolutely massively significant contribution, Man of the Match and then some. In the Champions League final he scored once and won us a penalty for another. In the FA Cupfinal he scored a brilliant volley for us to equalise once, and then smashed one in from 35 yards in injury time for us to equalise again.

So why the antipathy towards Gerrard? Why the claims that other people are more "influencial", how can that be? Why the belittlement of anyone who claims Gerrard is what he is, namely the best and most influencial player at the club by a mile?

See now that we're missing Alonso (and we most certainly are as Lucas is no replacement) people are bigging up Xabi's influence all over. Lets not forget though that this season we've seen Gerrard in central midfield for precisely half an hour. Even when he's not as his best (which he most certainly isn't right now) he took the game by the scruff of the neck, "bossed it" to quote Gary Megson, and we came back from 2-1 to 2-2 before with only minutes left Gerrard predictably smashed in the winner.

I'm constantly amazed though at the lack of repect Gerrard gets amongst Liverpool fans on here, what is given is almost given grudgingly it seems to me. I've been a Liverpool fan for many years and have seen some great players, only one though could possibly IMHO be considered to be a better one than Gerrard. He's that good, and it seems strange to me that at times you get atacked for saying so.

by **andy_g** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 8:11 am

he's an enigma wrapped up in a conundrum insided a box shaped paradox.

its hard to think where we would be or where we would have been without him over the last decade, as he's probably been the most influential single liverpool player in the clubs history. that's not to say he's up there with the likes of dalglish as best ever player, but i don't think that one player has ever had to carry the rest of the team, or at least dig it out of the shit on so many occasions as he has.

the problem is though that he doesn't actually seem like that nice or interesting a person. of course, that shouldn't really matter in a footballer (as recent discussions about turning a blind eye to aquilani's possible fascist tendencies have pointed out) but as he is our focal point in a football sense and as the current club's identity it probably does.

and as the club's focal point his performance on the pitch comes under more scrutiny than anyone else's. being the best player by a mile in the team, until torres turned up, this was always going to happen. so whenever his form dipped, which at times it does, it would be a lot more noticeable than any other player. we know though that even if his form dipped permanently he would walk into most squads out side the top 4 or 5.

the stevie me nickname he's acquired is sadly appropriate it seems, as is his reputation as a bit of a diver. the recent events in a bar in southport have also done him no favours at all. a combination of these bring out expressions of hatred towards him on just about every non-liverpool forum or newspaper comments board i have seen. maybe they are not justifiable but they are certainly understandable.

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:07 am

He's not much use, didn't you know? If we hadn't had to build around him/accomodate him in the team, Rafa would have won us the League 5 times over.

Nothing more than a mardy, self centred Kunt is what he is...... oh... and btw... he has some talent football wise but certainly is of no greater import..... we could sell him, make a profit and rebuild the team easy.

:no

:

I don't normally agree with Stu, but Stevie's wasted at Liverpool.

by **GYBS** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:11 am

mick - gerrard didnt take a penalty in the shoot out , he was due to take the 5th but didnt need too due to the game already won . Also where is this understatedness off gerrard on the forum and getting flak etc and lack of respect for him . Im guessing every single person knows he is our best and most important player and has dragged us out of the sh.it and rallyed the troops when needed . There is no one more influential than gerrard in the team and i reckon every liverpool fan knows that but that doesnt mean he is immune from any critisism when justified if he is playing poorly or he fecks up or does something wrong ie the stupid tackle that gave away the penalty or trying the glory pass or shot when it was the wrong option or the fight over xmas , but they are few and far between . Also while gerrard gets a lot of credit for the work he has done for us some credit must also go to rafa and coaches for helping him develop and mature into the world class player he is and getting him to play in positions that bring out the best of him . Its still a team game thou and they all deserve credit when things go right and vice versa deserve the critisism when it goes wrong . All in it together management and players .

by **ConnO'var** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:17 am

GYBS wrote:....... but that doesnt mean he is immune from any critisism ........

Agree 100%. Certainly not.

Only Rafa is afforded that particular right.

by **GYBS** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:27 am

no one is immune mate - but it has to be justified critisism and not just posting such and such is sh.it etc which you see many times with out actually explaining why such and such is sh.it , fair play to mick and few others they dont do that even if posters dont agree with them . Hate nothing more than seeing someone just post - rafa is sh.it or kuyt is sh.it or lucas or any others that are mentioned as such .

by **GYBS** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 9:28 am

no one is immune mate - but it has to be justified critisism and not just posting such and such is sh.it etc which you see many times with out actually explaining why such and such is sh.it , fair play to mick and few others they dont do that even if posters dont agree with them . Hate nothing more than seeing someone just post - rafa is sh.it or kuyt is sh.it or lucas or any others that are mentioned as such .

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:19 am

GYBS wrote:mick - gerrard didnt take a penalty in the shoot out , he was due to take the 5th but didnt need too due to the game already won ...... but that doesnt mean he is immune from any critisism when justified if he is playing poorly or he fecks up or does something wrong ie the stupid tackle that gave away the penalty or trying the glory pass or shot when it was the wrong option or the fight over xmas , but they are few and far between ..... Also while gerrard gets a lot of credit for the work he has done for us some credit must also go to rafa and coaches for helping him develop and mature into the world class player he is and getting him to play in positions that bring out the best of him .

On the shootout, (presumeably it's the Champions League one) sorry I stand corrected (that means I was wrong :laugh:

).

On the question of the "stupid" tackle, there has been much talk of that since the Villa game and I admit it was badly mistimed. What people haven't done so far though is offer an alternative to what Gerrard did. Reo-Coker was breaking into the box with the football, unhindered, and had options left and right. O'Neill actually said after the game that when Villa had talked at half time, they had resolved that even should Liverpool score, they would still bomb forward looking for the third goal. This they did, leaving Gerrard having to attempt a last ditch tackle. Reo-Coker moves the ball while Gerrard is on the slide and it's a penalty. I don't necessarily agree though that the tackle is "stupid". You could contrast it with the foul which Lucas gave away on the edge of the box at the weekend for instance. There, through over zealousness and inexperience we give away a silly foul where there is no danger, that's "stupid". I say that safe in the knowledge that people will say I'm picking on the Brazillian, but that's up to them.

As for Rafa and the coaches "helping him develop" I'm of the opinion that Gerrard would have been a World Class player whoever was his manager. Certainly he has played in more positions under Rafa, right and left of midfield, central midfielder and as an inside forward, but it is arguable whether or not that has helped or hindered his development.

by **redbeergoggles** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:24 am

I think this thread will just serve as an enticement for the posters who like to plant landmines

and literally revel in all manner of explosive and volatile confrontation ... ( Or put simply it might just attract a large no. of WUMS ) just a thought mind

by **stmichael** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:32 am

Stevie G was, and for many remains, the ultimate icon: world class player, Red, scouse, captain, heartbeat, lifeblood; all in a world of football gone mad. However those who have been on this forum for a while will know that my opinion of the guy changed after the Chelsea saga and at the time I actually started a thread on here advocating selling the guy. The whole saga was a huge let down for me. He was the last player I thought would even entertain the idea of leaving in such a manner.

What it taught me is that ultimately, no matter what they say, the way those players we idolise think is far removed from how we do. We should no longer love them, but love what they do for us. The truth is that’s much the same way they feel towards us. The reason behind the outrage felt by most Reds at the time went, and continues to go, well beyond the loss the team would feel from losing an irreplaceable player. Most Reds have come to feel a certain way about the way players should think and behave if they have the honour of wearing the Liverbird on their chests. Especially a player such as Gerrard.

Fantastic player though. Best I've ever seen in a red shirt.

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:38 am

Not saying you're wrong Red as you're probably not, but why should it? I was discussing Kuyt with a bloke this morning and gave the opinion that he's started the season very slowly. He's a perfectly reasonable fella, and in mid conversation it was pointed out to me that if Gerrard had done the Kuyt assist of his chest to Torres, "half the forum would be w@nking over it". Where does that come from, almost as if some fans begrudge the fact that Gerrard gets lots of praise. I've seen on here a couple of times over the last couple of weeks that Gerrard was a "disgrace" in the first couple of games of the season. I mean, what is that

Even on a bad day, he's nearly always our best player on view. On a good day, he's head and shoulders clear of everyone else. You've got GYBS on this thread talking about when he goes for the "glory pass or shot" much of the time. My argument is that if he didn't, we'd be fecked much of the time too. Put it this way, if he didn't go for the glory shot in the Cup Final we wouldn't have won it, ditto got past Olympiacos in the Champions League.

I just can't understand why the bloke has to retire before people appreciate him. I loved Robbie Fowler as a player, all the fans did, but lets be honest Gerrard is twice the footballer Fowler was and gets nothing like the same adulation. Maybe Andy's on the money, perhaps people just don't like him as a person I don't know.

by **GYBS** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:40 am

like i said he is immune to critisism no matter what he has done so if people want to say it was a stupid tackle cause they feel it was then that doesnt mean they are in some way disrespecting him and i fail to see how anything positive can be said about him when giving the penalty but you certainly tried mick and even brought lucas into it ? ! . On the question of rafa getting credit for helping gerrard ? Is that a bad thing to do and something even gerrard himself as recognised so go on mick agree with gerrard give a little credit to rafa with helping gerrard develop into the player he is now . It wont hurt you to do it just this once :;):

by **Sabre** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:42 am

So why the antipathy towards Gerrard? Why the claims that other people are more "influencial", how can that be? Why the belittlement of anyone who claims Gerrard is what he is, namely the best and most influencial player at the club by a mile?

I've said plenty of times that Gerrard is the best player of Liverpool and I never got belittled for it.

I wouldn't say that in this forum there's antipathy towards the captain. Yes, he has a few critics, but I wouldn't say that's the general rule of the forum.

by **GYBS** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:45 am

mick read my post a bit more closely and you will see the bit where i mention the glory pass and shoot when it is the wrong option but you fail to read i said this happens few and far between . Bit of a crucial point there i think as im not stating he does it on a regular occasion but he has done it before and just because someone does say that was the wrong option doesnt mean they arent disrespecting him .

by **bigmick** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:53 am

GYBS wrote:like i said he is immune to critisism no matter what he has done so if people want to say it was a stupid tackle cause they feel it was then that doesnt mean they are in some way disrespecting him and i fail to see how anything positive can be said about him when giving the penalty but you certainly tried mick and even brought lucas into it ? ! . On the question of rafa getting credit for helping gerrard ? Is that a bad thing to do and something even gerrard himself as recognised so go on mick agree with gerrard give a little credit to rafa with helping gerrard develop into the player he is now . It wont hurt you to do it just this once

If people want to say it was a "stupid" tackle it's fine obviously, it's fine whatever people say, I'm just asking the question and developing the point a bit. I don't think anyone thinks Gerrard should be "immune" to criticism, but I just find it baffling that fans will sieze upon something with which they feel they can criticise him. It's not about saying something positive about him giving the penalty away either, it's just about trying to put the thing in context (I get the impression I'm flogging a dead horse here but anyway).

Neither did I "bring Lucas into it", I was merely making the point that there's "stupid" and there's "stupid". Clearly if a bloke jumps up in the area and handballs it for no reason it's "stupid", if he punches it off the line to save a goal it is less so. I can't actually remember (but no doubt you can so you can tell me) whether Lucas was still on the pitch when Gerrard made his "stupid" tackle, but if he was it would be reasonable to ask where the feck was he (or indeed where was Masherano if he wasn't). Very often in football everyone jumps up and says "it was his fault!" and often they're right, but sometimes they're not.

As for giving Rafa praise :laugh:

it's something I've done many times, even more so recently. I'll do it again for you here. I think he's done a decent job, has broadly bought quite well, is an excellent defensive coach (as in coach of the defence, NOT a "defensive" coach) and is a decent enough bloke. There are obviously some counter points as well, but since you asked me for praise I'll leave it there. I stick with my original opinion on Gerrard however, I think he would have become a World Class player if you were the manager to be honest.

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