Liverpool FC Forum

by **bigmick** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:28 pm

I know absolutely nothing whatsoever about Spanish football so there's no point in me pontificating on Lorente or the other bloke.

A couple of things though are interesting in this debate. Firstly, the learning process for us which has been this season. We have attempted to go through the second half of the season with only one recognised striker, and as experiments go it hasn't been that successful. No sooner had we embarked on our journey than both Torres and Gerrard sustained injuries, and in truth it has never really come off. Torres missing against Newcastle was no big deal, but if we hadn't been put out of the Champions League by Chelsea his absense this week would have been. Keanegate and the surrounding issues will crop us many times in the ensuing debate should Manchester United avoid falling flat on their face at the last fence. I can only hope that like mass rotation from game one, and setting up more positively to win matches even if it means risking losing them, we have taken the knowledge, learned from our mistakes and will apply both next season.

As somebody mentioned earlier too, each time I see Arshavin playing for Arsenal I can't help thinking what might have been. He can play up top in Torres's role, he could certainly play in Gerrard's role, and he can fairly obviously play wide left as he scored four times against us from there. At a price somewhere between 11-15 million depending on which report you read, you have to wonder why we weren't in for him (and if we were why we din't make sure we got him). Arguably, we need him far more than Arsenal do and even the usual 'with the benefit of hinmdsight' riders don't apply in his case, as half the forum was on about him for eighteen months previously.

As for who we need/could do with, like RBG I'll keep my targets in England, in my case because that's the only football I know anything about. as I've said many times Robin Van Persie would be my number one choice as he is young, top-class, and can play either in Gerrards role, Torres's role or out wide. I think he'd cost betwen 15-22 million. My second choice and a fairly close second at that would be Nicolas Annelka. Once more he can play up top, in behind or out wide. My guess is with a new manager coming in at Chelsea, there's a chance you'd get him for 12-15. Third choice woud be Tevez who doesn't offer as much versatitily (or at least he doesn't until he's had two months of being an "option" under Rafa) but he is a quality player. 20-25 mill I think for him. If the coffers are nowhere near as deep as that, I really like Tuncay at Middlesboro. Once they've gone down and his "I love the club" has turned into "let me out of here" I think you'll get him for between 8-12 mill. If the coffers are shallower than that, Martins from the barcodes at 7-10 mill. Shallower than that, Cisse on a free, or Owen.

by **tubby** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:57 pm

Interesting choices Mick but Arsenal will not let RVP go. He is vital to their setup, also he is another sicknote. Anelka would be good but didn't Rafa pass up the chance to sign him before he went to Chlesea? I don't think we can afford Tevez but Tuncay I think is a real possibility. Very technically gifted.

As for Owen, he will probably join the bitters in the summer anyway. Also I think Rafa ruled him out last week too.

by **heimdall** » Mon May 04, 2009 10:59 pm

bavlondon wrote:Interesting choices Mick but Arsenal will not let RVP go. He is vital to their setup, also he is another sicknote. Anelka would be good but didn't Rafa pass up the chance to sign him before he went to Chlesea? I don't think we can afford Tevez but Tuncay I think is a real possibility. Very technically gifted.

As for Owen, he will probably join the bitters in the summer anyway. Also I think Rafa ruled him out last week too.

Can't we get Tevez on loan?

by **RedBlood** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:23 pm

thing is people say we made a mistake selling keane and not buying a replacement but since we sold him our league form is:

played 12 won 9 drew 2 lost 1

thats great form, league winning form and we have scored bags full of goals even in the champions league it was our defence that let us down

if we dont win the league it was lost in january when we drew 4 or 5 games when keane was very much part of the team and firing blanks

the decisiion to sell keane and not buy a back up could have back fired badly but it didnt and now it seems like a good bit of buisness getting most of our money back for a player who was off form and obviously starting to effect the team with his attitude

by **RedBlood** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:28 pm

as far as negredo and llorente go, i havnt seen any of them play as the spanish league isnt showed over here but from what ive seen on youtube i reckon negredo can score a more varity of goals like torres where as llorente seems to score alot of headers

and as were looking for an understudy to torres id pick negredo but as i say i have only seem them on youtube

by **bigmick** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:39 pm

RedBlood wrote:thing is people say we made a mistake selling keane and not buying a replacement but since we sold him our league form is:

played 12 won 9 drew 2 lost 1

thats great form, league winning form and we have scored bags full of goals even in the champions league it was our defence that let us down

if we dont win the league it was lost in january when we drew 4 or 5 games when keane was very much part of the team and firing blanks

the decisiion to sell keane and not buy a back up could have back fired badly but it didnt and now it seems like a good bit of buisness getting most of our money back for a player who was off form and obviously starting to effect the team with his attitude

You could make the argument as you are doing mate that we kind of got away with it upto this point. Course there's still three games to go, and Torres missed the last one (Gerrard missed a couple before that) so it's not quite time yet to breathe a sigh of relief. As I said in my post earlier though, if we were still involved in the Champions League, then Torres being injured as of now would have been a huge blow given our squad.

I'd also question your assertion a little bit that Keane was "very much part of the team" in January. I don't actually think he was ever "very much part of the team" in the brief time he was at Liverpool, and although my memory may well be skewed I have the impression that prior to his sale, he was involved even less.

You could make the argument (and I'd agree TBPH) that the player didn't make the most of the cameo opportunities he was given from time to time, but I would certainly add that IMHO the way he was handled was on occasions bordering on the absolutely bizarre. He may not be the only striker who has signed for a new club who was dropped in the immediate aftermath of BOTH occasions when he managed to score two goals in one match, but the group can't be that big I shouldn't think.

It's also been heartening/baffling in qual measure to see a striker play game after game after game when we have been told for four and a half seasons that he'd lose sharpness etc.

No, for me it wasn't the best example of the right way to do things. we bought the wrong player, we paid too much for him, we didn't handle him well at all, we sold him in the middle of a season and didn't bring in a replacement, credible or otherwise. Not good.

by **RedBlood** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:06 am

yes i totally agree keanes lack of form was not just down to him he was played out of position many times and wasnt given a fair crack imo but im just saying i dont think the sale of keane in january will be the reason we dont win the league, although i admit maybe rafa got lucky that it hasnt effected us more

imo we need wingers not strikers, world class ones and for me kuyt babel nemeth pachecco and ngog are more then enough back up for torres with riera and benyoun as back up wingers

by **heimdall** » Tue May 05, 2009 12:44 pm

RedBlood wrote:yes i totally agree keanes lack of form was not just down to him he was played out of position many times and wasnt given a fair crack imo but im just saying i dont think the sale of keane in january will be the reason we dont win the league, although i admit maybe rafa got lucky that it hasnt effected us more

imo we need wingers not strikers, world class ones and for me kuyt babel nemeth pachecco and ngog are more then enough back up for torres with riera and benyoun as back up wingers

So Kuyt is a good back up striker is he, remind me how many goals Kuyt scored when he started as striker for us this season. Although he has been adequate at right midfield lately.
Babel is :censored:

as is Eggnog and Pachecho has not found favour with Rafa yet so not sure about these back up strikers mate.
We have to get hold of a good quality second striker which will also let us play 4-4-2 from time to time.

by **DanAn** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:22 pm

heimdall wrote:
RedBlood wrote:yes i totally agree keanes lack of form was not just down to him he was played out of position many times and wasnt given a fair crack imo but im just saying i dont think the sale of keane in january will be the reason we dont win the league, although i admit maybe rafa got lucky that it hasnt effected us more

imo we need wingers not strikers, world class ones and for me kuyt babel nemeth pachecco and ngog are more then enough back up for torres with riera and benyoun as back up wingers

So Kuyt is a good back up striker is he, remind me how many goals Kuyt scored when he started as striker for us this season. Although he has been adequate at right midfield lately.
Babel is as is Eggnog and Pachecho has not found favour with Rafa yet so not sure about these back up strikers mate.
We have to get hold of a good quality second striker which will also let us play 4-4-2 from time to time.

Kuyt's only been an adequate right midfield this year? You're a very hard marker.

Definately agree we need a new striker and the figure of 8-10m seems an appropriate amount to spend. Negredo as a left footer might offer something a little bit different as would that Keirrison kid who like Negerdo is having a very impressive season.

I'd still rather spend the vast majority of the transfer money on either a rightback or left winger though. They are the weak spots IMO when everybody is fit and available.

by **Owzat** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:23 pm

If Kuyt is "adequate", that must make most of our team inadequate and our position in the league fortunate. Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, I'm not a big fan of him playing acting striker in Torres' absence, but he doesn't get credit from some no matter what he does.

As for needing wingers and "world class ones", I guess there must be loads just hidden from sight who won't cost an arm and a leg. We need a back-up striker, we could do with someone more productive than Riera to play opposite Kuyt and maybe with that extra strength in team and squad we can turn draws into wins and mancs into past winners.

by **stmichael** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:28 pm

No doubt I agree with most that I would prefer, for example another 20 goal a season striker to play in a 4-4-2, or 2 world class wingers for example.

However reverting to a 4-4-2 does not guarantee that we will continue our excellent attacking ability (we have an extra man in midfield to create currently) may be blunted with 2 strikers with no service. I notice too that none of the top sides use a 4-4-2, there must be a reason (Chelsea currently play with Drogba and Anelka, but they don't operate side by side)

by **heimdall** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:34 pm

Owzat wrote:If Kuyt is "adequate", that must make most of our team inadequate and our position in the league fortunate. Kuyt has been one of our best performers this season, I'm not a big fan of him playing acting striker in Torres' absence, but he doesn't get credit from some no matter what he does.

As for needing wingers and "world class ones", I guess there must be loads just hidden from sight who won't cost an arm and a leg. We need a back-up striker, we could do with someone more productive than Riera to play opposite Kuyt and maybe with that extra strength in team and squad we can turn draws into wins and mancs into past winners.

Kuyt has been very good lately, playing way above his natural ability imo but earlier in the season he wasn't so hot as can be witnessed if you look back on the various and plentifull "Kuyt is sh1t" threads. Overall then I think he has been adequate over the season and very good the last few months, but I would still prefer to see a proper right midfielder/winger.

I think we have a very good team with a few weak points, all we really need is someone like Barry and toperhaps get Tevez on loan. If we still have a bit of extra cash then another RB as well, although we must surely have a few youngsters like Darby who can start to make the step up in to the first team next season.

by **Owzat** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:43 pm

stmichael wrote:No doubt I agree with most that I would prefer, for example another 20 goal a season striker to play in a 4-4-2, or 2 world class wingers for example.

However reverting to a 4-4-2 does not guarantee that we will continue our excellent attacking ability (we have an extra man in midfield to create currently) may be blunted with 2 strikers with no service. I notice too that none of the top sides use a 4-4-2, there must be a reason (Chelsea currently play with Drogba and Anelka, but they don't operate side by side)

Exactly. We have to make key decisions in the summer, whether to try and get another striker capable of scoring 20+ goals a season and switching to 4-4-2, or stick with what works - our 4-3-3/4-5-1/4-2-3-1 system or however you want to dress it up.

If we revert to 4-4-2 then we don't know if Kuyt, Gerrard or Torres will be as effective, some seem happy to ditch Kuyt even though he's had a good season and Riera has contributed less - might be (partly) why he comes off after 60-70 mins a lot and Kuyt doesn't.............. If we do sign a second quality striker then Gerrard would either play on the right or drop into the CM role he reputedly wants/ed to play and then who gives way - Mascherano or Alonso?

And we don't very often sign £20m+ players, to sign these "world class" wingers or a "world class" striker will probably come to £20m each and I can't see Rafa going that way. I read we might sign Downing, will he produce more or score more goals than Riera? I doubt it. My favoured solution is someone who can play LWF and score as many goals as Kuyt, that little extra may well be that final step we need to take. Riera simply doesn't score enough or create enough, he scores some crackers but I'd rather have Kuyt's output of goals than Riera's even if they are rarely classics.

I think some on here are just so used to typing the old line about world class wingers and strikers they don't consider the wider implications. You've still got heimdall laying into Kuyt despite a large sway of opinion the other way. Some like to think we can make Kuyt a squad player and he'll be as effective, I doubt that. At the moment Kuyt is our best RM, has been one of our best players (serious player of the season contender) and probably our best back-up striker to Torres. We don't lose games because Kuyt sometimes doesn't control the ball or has a stinker, we lose games or don't win them because too few players have a good game. Without Kuyt's contribution this season I reckon we'd maybe not have reached the group stages of the Champions League and would probably be fighting it out for 3rd or 4th rather than clinging on to feint title hopes. If more players had played as well as Kuyt this season, I reckon the mancs would be the ones clinging on to feint title hopes

by **HacksawJimDuggin** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:49 pm

I don't think anyone can doubt Dirk Kuyt's contribution this year. He has scored well over 10 goals predominantly from MF. I really rate the guy and he is a more than adequate understudy for Torres when he is out of the team. If I were Rafa I would look to bring in a young up and coming striker rather than someone like a Robbie Keane who ain't going to be happy not playing every week! Somone who can learn off the likes of Torres.

Pachecho and Nemeth should see more 1st team football next term and both these guys have very bright futures.

If I were Rafa I would be concentrating my efforts on getting another genuine wide player of top quality, another centre half and possibly an additional midfielder if Lucas is to leave in the summer.

by **Owzat** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:54 pm

heimdall wrote:Kuyt has been very good lately, playing way above his natural ability imo but earlier in the season he wasn't so hot as can be witnessed if you look back on the various and plentifull "Kuyt is sh1t" threads. Overall then I think he has been adequate over the season and very good the last few months, but I would still prefer to see a proper right midfielder/winger.

Just because plenty jumped on the anti-Kuyt bandwagon, doesn't mean he was as bad as some liked to claim. He was simply witch-hunted, very popular easy season and he was scapegoated along with Dossena, Lucas and Babel. It's not easy to blame your favourite players so plenty go for players they don't like much, blame them when their favourites who weren't playing well either didn't shine enough to win a game. Funny how the player noone rates gets the blame, the rest of the superstars never get blamed. I'd be more convinced by criticism of Kuyt if I saw criticism of others, even attempts to say Reina has had a poor trot were shot down rapidly. Riera hasn't had the season Kuyt has yet he hasn't undergone much criticism, perhaps relief that we have a LM that can do a job even if it isn't a great one. Kuyt has done a better job at RM and still can't get credit from some.

You may prefer "proper right midfielder/winger", however I sincerely doubt that would be in the best interests of the team and formation since Kuyt contributes a lot of goals and not many "proper" players in that position do. And if they weigh in with lots of crossing, who would it be at? That known header of the ball Riera? Or Alonso? Or perhaps Gerrard will start getting on the end of high crosses. If anything we need to move towards having on the left what Kuyt provides on the right, move away from orthodox wingers and play wing-forwards. We won't get many goals from Alonso or Mascherano, we replace Kuyt with a Lennon and we'll probably end up back fighting it out for 3rd

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