Liverpool FC Forum

by **Owzat** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:12 am

s@int wrote:I think what our success in the CL does is highlight why we have problems in the league. We win in the CL because we are solid at the back make very few mistakes and are tactically set up to stop the other side playing. We play on the break, relying on hard work, and its the team that makes the least mistakes that usually wins.

In the prem its ALL about winning games, rather than not losing games. You need to have players that will take a risk that may get you the all important goal. Teams don't need to come at you because a lot of them are more than delighted to get a point. Its teams that can create goals, that can force the other team to make errors that win games. We are the team forced to go forward while other teams hit us on the break.

How many teams have had as many penalty shootouts as Liverpool? How many teams have won as many away legs then lost the second leg at home as we have, happy to go through on away goals.

We need more creativity, not for Europe as much as for the league. Its the league were teams are happy to play for a point, or hope to snatch a lucky goal once we begin to panic that we need more creativity.

To get back on track, I think if we win the CL its a great achievement and I don't see how we could let him walk after achieving it. I still don't think he will bring us the league, but I think he would deserve the chance to try.

Fair enough, can't disagree with that overall.

The reason we do well in Europe is, as you say, not having to win that often. Rafa's win ratio is ok for the competition, and we haven't yet won a Champions League final without going to penalties - or an FA Cup final, in fact the UEFA Super Cup win needed extra time.

In a way I hope we don't win the Champions League, I think it's unlikely anyway but it could just condemn us to the same for a few more years until someone finally decides it isn't good enough. The longer we go without a league title, the more likely it is top players will be tempted elsewhere - fortunately that only covers a handful of our players! :laugh:

I nearly made a comment in the squad cost thread about how we should stop focusing on what other teams spent and focus on doing the best we can with what we've got (to spend as well as players) We need a manager who can win the league against clubs with superior finances, that is our lot in life at the moment and hiding behind the excuse of inferior spending is simply accepting second, third or even fourth best. If Rafa's such a great manager, how come Arsenal finish aboved us (defies the law of ordering by spending) and he can't use his "superior managerial skills" ? We may not have spent as much as the mancs and Chelsea, but let's face it we can't even beat sides we've spent way more than - Fulham, STOKE, HULL, everton, Wigan, BORO etc That's not down to inferior spending, it's down to Rafa, his spending, his tactics etc

Maybe Rafa's contract should include "more control", maybe it should be based entirely on win bonuses. Offer twice as much as he's paid now, but 3/4 of it based on performances/wins. Let him earn his money, force him to do what is needed to win the league or at least focus more on that.

by **Effes** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:19 am

Owzat wrote:In a way I hope we don't win the Champions League,

Sorry Owzat - but that defies any logic, as a fan.

by **Bam** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:26 pm

I'd regard it a good season if we finished 3rd or better 2nd and won the CL, Definately. The dissapointment of not capitalising on our position while we were top of the league will be a little rough to swallow. Especially seeing as the Mancs are well on their way to equalling our record.

That would be a bitter pill to swallow but if we were to win the CL it certainly would make that a bitter/sweet pill to swallow. Instead of seeing the Mancs mugs all over the tabloids, and Fergie having successfully knocked us off our perch. Liverpool FC winning the CL again would take the gloss off of that and prove to be the tonic needed.

If we dont win the CL, and I dont think we will. The season will be much harder to raise a smile about and reflect back on with any kind of jubilation. It will only raise more question marks over Rafa and continue to split a divide amongst the fans.

Myself, If Rafa were to be given a two year contract I'd be satisfied with that, seen as he has gained some sort of ground on Chelsea and the Mancs. But I think next seasons' campaign will be much harder for him and I wouldnt be so eager in offering a four year contract.
If Rafa we're to leave in the summer, I dont think it would bother me too much, either way now I dont care. His contract saga took away the limelight of us sitting ontop of the league, its a debacle and the sooner it is cleared up one way or the other is only going to be for the good of the players and club.

by **Madmax** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 4:49 pm

crazyhorse wrote:The main crux of my thought is that if we were to win the CL this year, we cannot really call ourselves the best team in Europe. There are at least three at this moment in time who i see as being superior to us...

We have to win the league. Until we do Manure will rightly claim to be the best team in the world.. I suppose it is all about bragging rights.. We are number one for history, tradition, integrity and many other things but have not done it on the pitch for 20 years. That is the point... we have to win that competion over 38 games to call ourselves the best.

spot on mate

by **redhayesy** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:57 pm

like the great bill shankly said in an interview, the european cup is a great thing for the club & a great thing for the country, but the league title is the one we want.this is our bread & butter & this is the one we want.

untill it's impossible points wise for us to win it this season, i will never give up hope!
NEVER STOP BELIEVING.

forget being real in reality, it's my birthday so i'm in a positive mood more than usual.

by **taff** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:39 pm

bigmick wrote:Equally, if Villa qualified (once again I don't think they will) they'd do very well to get to the last 8. We saw after the English clubs being banned, that in Europe you need experience, built up over a couple of seasons. Villa would get it in the end I'm sure, their manager managed to pick it up OK at Celtic, but first time up they'd struggle I think.

Thats the argument Ive been using regards the league. We fell behind and have to pick up that culture and learning from competing in the league. Dont you think that its strange that we should have last 8 as a minimum but you give Villa room but alternatively we dont get that in the league.

Unfortunately we cant wander in and just win everything. in 2004 we were a demoralised team as said by senior players, not on the brink of success so with that in mind I see the achievements that Rafa has done. Mistakes, of course. But in your opinion then surely Villa who if they achieve fourth in a very tough league should look at the quarter finals as a minimum objective

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 9:47 pm

It makes you laugh though when you think about it, What do teams try an do every season, erm get in to the top 4 an qualify for the champions league, ok i know realisticaly there are only a few teams in with a shout of winning the league , but when you think about it all season teams play to get into that top four if you get my drift

by **bigmick** » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:10 pm

I'm not sure I get you Taff to be honest. Our minimum standard as far as I can see in the league is that we finish top four. Both Houllier and Rafa have usually managed that, and that is the absolute minimum for me. If we started finishing outside the top four regularly, than my guess is that pretty much everyone would be up in arms and wanting to change the manager. I think pretty much everyone would accept that.

That doesn't mean though that if we finish inside the top four all is good, our objective surely is to win it. Now the difference between what I think and what you think Taff, is that I don't think based on what we have done so far that we will ever win it under Rafa, whereas presumeably you do.

We can play head tennis with figures, net spends, progression and all that stuff for a few hours, or we can simply accept that I don't believe in the manager, and you do. So total is my conviction that Rafa is the wrong manager for Liverpool football club, that the only thing which would convince me otherwise is irrefutable evidence in the Premiership. So entrenched am I in my views to be totally honest, that I think he'd probably have to win it to win me over again (like he gives a feck about me anyway but you get my drift). You on the other hand will be much more forgiving of any errors, simply because you believe in him and that in the end he will lead us to glory. Thats all cool with me.

It's a bit like asking Liverpool fans if they wanted Houllier back, three years after he'd left Liverpool. He kept winnig the title with Lyon, had a good team and went well in the Champions League. There was no campaign to bring him back though, because by then people had made their minds up. They'd seen enough. That's what I'm like with Rafa.

Now the thread starter asked would a Champions League win be enough? Not for me no. I already know he's a good manager over two legs in the Champions League, proving it again doesn't mean we are any more likely to win the Premiership. As I've said a few times, even if Madrid beat us it doesn't mean he has become a poor manager in Europe, so I'd be surpirised if it changes anyones opinion one way or another.

On the question of Villa, I don't think the comparision with them qualifying for the Champions League and our need to "reach base camp" really holds up. Unlike us in the Premiership, the vast majority of their players have never even played in the Champions League, so I think it is only reasonable to allow them at least a season to get used to it. Like I said I don't think they'll qualify anyway, but if they do I don't think it's unreasonable to assume their minimum standard at their first attempt would be different to ours.

As for wandering in and winning everything, well nobody does that with the possible exception of the Mancs this season. If we don't win anything though, it'll be three seasons without a trophy.

I have this theory and have been thinking about starting a thread on it (I've shelved the idea in the light of how sensitive people are at the moment). The theory asks about when you become a sleeping giant, how soon do you know? at what point do you know? We know for instance that in the mid eighties, Everton had an excellent team. Here we are today, and the big five is a big four these days. At what point did that happen for them, and if anybodies, whose fault was it? Anyway, my theory is that once you've actually become a sleeping giant and you know it, it's kind of already too late to do something about it. A bit like a common cold, once you've got one it's too late to treat it.

Now if we don't win the Champions League this season (and I'm not being negative, just considering the possibility) how important is it that we win something next season? If Villa continue to improve, and Man City do as they surely will, how important is it that we get int he top four?

Anyway I'm waffling on about my sleeping giant theory. Hopefully Taff, we can just accept that at the heart of each of our opinions, we have a fundamental difference of opinion in how much belief we have in the manager. We'll find out soon enough who was right (not that it overly matters either way) once he's signed his new contract. Hopefully this is another Robert Earnshaw moment from me.

by **Owzat** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:26 pm

Here's an interesting slant on whether winning the Champions League would be enough. If the Champions League were the only trophy any side won in the season, would it be good enough?

Man Utd - possibly, only because they have won enough Premierships for that not to be their "holy grail"
Chelsea - probably, because they've not won it before and didn't win a trophy last season
Arsenal - probably, because they've not won it before and didn't win a trophy last season

For the rest it would be a mix of having never won it before and/or not having won a trophy (for a while). I'm sure it would satisfy Arsenal fans as a trophy they've never won, I doubt it would be enough for the mancs or Chelsea though and surely it's them we should be matching ambitions with, not Arsenal and the rest of the Premiership? We've won the Champions League, isn't it more important to move on to the next level in the Premiership than win a competition we know we can win?

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:33 pm

The CL is the Holy Grail for pretty much every big club in Europe bar us . CL is the one all the big owners want - Chelsea,Milans,Madrid, Barce even Man Utd and Arsenal.

by **supersub** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:54 pm

Champions league for me....seen us win countless league titles....like a party with no beer,little elation and then falls flat

European Final is like 2 week party of the century with a free bar....memories that last a lifetime...but I'm just being selfish

Of course it would be nice to win the league just to shut the critics up for awhile, but heh! if it don't happen I won't cry.

As previously mentioned all the top teams in Europe have the Champions League as their top priority not their own league, so here's to getting to Rome for the 3rd time.

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 1:57 pm

Im with you on that one mate . Yeah it would be great to win the league but for some reason the CL or European cup seems to be the really special one . Its the one that every club wants and has always been something we pride ourself on - The Best English Club in Europe and something that Shanks and Paisley wanted .

by **JC_81** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:00 pm

supersub wrote:Champions league for me....seen us win countless league titles....like a party with no beer,little elation and then falls flat

Problem for some of us is that we either can't remember or were too young to properly appreciate it when we last won the league. I was nine, so clearly it would mean a lot more now having seen United dominate it for almost as long as I can remember.

CL would be massive though, and imo it would be a great season if we won it.

by **GYBS** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:02 pm

Winning the CL can only be classed as a great successful season - the trophy is massive , prob the biggest and most important club trophy in the world .

by **boodiddy1** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:04 pm

Definate yes. If we win champions league it puts united's domestic success right out of the window. It doesn't matter what they say when we are champions of europe. Then, we will go and win world club cup and rafa is immortalised.

If rafa gave us champions league success every 4 years then i would take it. in twenty years time we would be most successful club in europe ever.

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