The (you don't have to be) champions league - Harder for liverpool to win the league?

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The (you don't have to be) champions league - Harder for liverpool to win the league?

Strongly Agree - I think it is much harder
0
No votes
Agree - I think it probably is harder
7
37%
Disagree - I think it is easier
3
16%
Strongly Disagree - I think it is much easier
0
No votes
I think it is neither harder nor easier, it is still as difficult
9
47%
 
Total votes : 19

Postby Owzat » Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:58 am

In posting my thoughts on the distraction of the Champions League in the Real Madrid thread, I came to the conclusion the Champions League being extended to teams finishing in the top four (in the Premiership) makes it harder for some teams to win it - like Liverpool.

While squads now have to be much stronger, and in fact the "big four" is now seen as being a dominant force in the Premiership because of the Champions League money, I believe a club like Liverpool finds it difficult to juggle wanting to win the Premiership with being in the Champions League. That said, even the UEFA Cup is becoming a money driven entitity with more fixtures and set to mimick the Champions League structure with a new name that thankfully has yet to stick in my mind.

We don't want the team to lose, well sometimes we don't care if we lose and go out of a competition, and we certainly shouldn't be willing the team to lose during the games themselves, but a good side should at least make the QFs of the Champions League - certainly a side with Premiership ambitions. That means a fair few extra games which a side with a history of finishing third or fourth can struggle to cope with, what with injuries and the extra fixtures.

So if you finish in the top four you qualify for the Champions League, but historically in the Premiership the champions of England finish in the top three the previous season. Only twice has a team finished third and become Premiership Champions the following season - Man Utd who have only ever finished outside the top two three times in the Premiership, and Arsenal who subsequently finished in the top two EIGHT seasons in a row, up until the last three seasons in which they have competed with us for third (2-1 to us)

So for a squad with the money of Man Utd and Chelsea, the (recent) history of being one of the best/strongest two teams in the Premiership, challenging on this second front is not a problem. But for us and Arsenal it's more of an either/or, with the two qualifiers to add to the fixtures and not nearly the same financial whack as the other two not to mention inferior squads. It is a shame in a way, we have a great history in the European Cup and now sides can win the competition without being Champions and, while we've done it ourselves, it takes a little bit of shine off the achievement.

So how has winning the Premiership affected teams, other than Man Utd who had become pretty dominant before even they won the Champions League. Seasons listed are the seasons the team won the Premiership and seasons they entered the Champions League as Champions

Chelsea

2004/05 : Premiership - Champions, Champions League - Semi-Finals
2005/06 : Premiership - Champions, Champions League - Last Sixteen
2006/07 : Premiership - Runners-Up, Champions League - Semi-Finals


Arsenal

1997/98 : Premiership - Champions, Champions League - DNQ
1998/99 : Premiership - Runners-Up, Champions League - Last 24 (Group Stage)
2001/02 : Premiership - Champions, Champions League - Last Sixteen (2nd Group Stage)
2002/03 : Premiership - Runners-Up, Champions League - Last Sixteen (2nd Group Stage)
2003/04 : Premiership - Champions, Champions League - Quarter-Finals
2004/05 : Premiership - Runners-Up, Champions League - Last Sixteen


Blackburn

1994/95 : Premiership - Champions, Champions League - DNQ
1995/96 : Premiership - 7th, Champions League - Last 16 (Group Stage)



Becoming Champions and dealing with the demands of the two major competitions is not easy for sides without big squads like Man Utd and Chelsea. Chelsea's record may not look great, but their exits to us were close and their last sixteen exit was at the hands of Champions of Europe to be, Barcelona. Arsenal finished Champions League runners-up that 05/06 season, finished third in the Premiership. Only Man Utd have won the Champions League as Champions (07/08), even in 1999 they didn't qualify as Champions as Arsenal won it in 97/98.

The (You Don't Have) To Be Champions League - English Club Finalists

1999 Man Utd : Winners, but qualified as Premiership Runners-Up
2005 Liverpool : Winners, but qualified via 4th in the Premiership
2006 Arsenal : Runners-Up, qualified as Premiership Runners-up
2007 Liverpool : Runners-Up, qualified via 3rd in the Premiership
2008 Chelsea : Runners-Up, qualified as Premiership Runners-Up
2008 Man Utd : Winners, and the first to do so having qualified as Premiership Champions


Shows how relatively easy it is to reach the final, not quite so easy to win the league and definitely difficult to do both. In sixteen Premiership seasons, only twice has a team won the Champions League and the Premiership in the same season, only once has it been done the "old fashioned way" of being domestic Champions first. FIVE out of six English teams have reached the Champions League final without qualifying as winners, now I may be wrong but most of the old European Cups have to have been won by Champions of their domestic leagues - one exception I can think of is Notts Forest since they won two European Cups and only one league title! I believe two of our European Cups were as a League and European Cup double - 1983/84 and 1976/77.
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Postby oreilly » Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:02 am

I wouldn't want to think us the fans are throwing in the towel already, hopefully Liverpool finally get into a bit of form and storm the league in the last 10 games.

Come on the reds. We are well in this.
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Postby account deleted by request » Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:42 pm

Because of the fixture congestion caused by the CL, I think teams that have had a poor season in the league and arn't really in contention for the title have a huge advantage over teams fighting it out on two fronts.

Last seasons final between Chelsea and the mancs being more the exception (due to their strong squads) that proves the rule.

Teams can now afford to lose a game or two and still qualify for the knockout stages, where no doubt some of the stronger sides will have one eye on their domestic campaign and maybe misjudge the strength of their opponents.

I preferred the old Champs only and knockout competition myself, but I think its more about money now anyway.
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Postby Greavesie » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:30 am

the ties in the Champions league really get me going a lot more than the PL does -Real, Juve, Barca, Chelsea semis, AC, the list goes on. Right now we're in a position where the league means a lot more to us than Europe ever will - with that said, glory in either/both wouldn't go a miss! 

like S@int said I think a lot of it is linked to the circumstances the club is in when the ties on the CL come around, league position, other silverware possibilities etc
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Postby kazza » Sat Feb 21, 2009 12:17 pm

From a fans perspective I like the format as I get to watch my team play more games (Wed & Tues) and against Europes biggest teams. We do need to win the prem but success in either will be greatly welcomed. Having a final in neutral venue adds something to the excitement especially when it is one match that decides all.
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