Liverpool FC Forum

[JC_81]

I think it's easy to forget that Benitez has made us the team we are in Europe.  He has raised the profile of the club and also helped the club financially by doing so well in Europe.  He gets crucified for his 'net spend' but he has made a lot of that money himself by outsmarting far better teams than us in Europe over recent seasons.

Because of this raised profile we have been able to attract players like Torres and Mascherano.  Do you think Torres would have signed if we weren't such a force in the Champions League?  No way.

Given then that Benitez has given us the platform to compete for the CL and the league for that matter, does he not deserve to see his project through?  Not necessarily my own opinion, but is another way of looking at it.

Its a very good point John, i am certain that before Rafa and all the success in the champions league the likes of Torres and Mascherano probably wouldnt of signed, definately not Torres who had turned down Chelsea.

What we have to look at from my point of view is, if we keep Rafa can we get back to the top of our own tree (the league) ?
The answer for me is a definate no, so (if we get the ownership sorted) then regardless of winning the champions league i would advocate a new start.

Fair points.

I would argue that no manager could come in and win the league for us without significant investment in the playing staff.  And I'm not talking about a big 'net spend' over 5 years.  I'm talking about 2, if not 3 20 million pound players in key positions - ie striker and right mid definitely and then either a full back or left mid - to come in in one transfer window.

Look at our team man for man against United's and how the feck can any of us really expect to win the league.

The idea of a TEAM IS THAT THE SUM IS GREATER THAN THE INDIVIDUAL PARTS. If you use a revolving door transfer policy you will never achieve that (maybe a brilliant man manager could)

The Forest team that won the league and 2 European cups wasn't a great side had few great players yet swept all before it for a couple of years. How many of their players would have got in the Liverpool team 1 possibly 2 ?

The Blackburn team that won the league under Kenny, how many would have got in the Mancs team ?

A managers job is MORE than buying more expensive players than your rivals, its blending them in such a way that the sum of the TEAM is greater than the parts.

Great managers achieve this, other managers ask for more money.

I'd argue s@int that our team is greater than the sum of its parts.  With our current set of players I don't think we'd do any better with a different manager to be perfectly honest.  You could argue though that our manager has had five years to build this side and if the players aren't good enough that's his fault.  That's another debate.  We have only two genuine world class players yet hung onto United's coat tails for much of the season and consistently get to the latter stages of the CL.

Comparisons with the Forest sides and the Blackburn side are pointless imo.  Football in England has moved on a lot since then.  The English top flight and the European cup are harder to win now.  There is not such an even distribution of footballing talent throughout Europe now, it is now all concentrated in the Premiership and La Liga, and now less so in Italy and Germany.  Winning the competition is now beyond French and Dutch teams and probably anyone else for that matter.  The top teams in the Premiership and in Europe are now stronger than the top teams were 10 or 20 years ago.

You can't rely on a team simply being more than the sum of its parts these days to win a league.  A knock-out such as the CL maybe - Benitez with Liverpool and Mourinho with Porto proved that.  But a league?  I'm sorry but for me you need world class or at least top class players in most positions to win the Premiership these days.  We don't have that and it doesn't matter who the manager is he wouldn't win the league with our current squad.

[taff]

Ok I have to get soemthing off my chest here.  It is insane to think that the CL is some easy competition that we automatically reach the last 8 in.  I genuinely cannot believe that argument.

The difference between the CL and the PL for us is we won it in 2005 and Rafa has built up an aura about the team and himself which makes us feared and favourites in it.  The reverse is true of the league unfortunately.  I think that we have proved this season that we can fight for the league and I expect us now to be stronger but we still havent got the correct mentality in the squad to go that little bit more.  Manu have this and this adds to our despair.

Regardless of what other results are if we won our last league games and lost to Madrid then I would take that as IMO we need to prove more in the league but a club like ours should do both to be honest.  But if we progress in the CL then I still wouldnt like to see it prioritised as we should be fighting on different fronts come this time in the season.

And please dont say that Rafa prioritises anything.  He is pragmatic to see what can be won but to think he is not interested in the league is IMO scandalous

[LegBarnes]

Sorry but no. It proves once again tha Rafa is as good as it gets in europe, but we knew that anyway. We started the season wanting a challenge, and fleetingly we got one, but the way we t0ssed it away with gay abandon convinced me more than ever that we need a new manager. You don't sell your striker cover in january without bringing in a replacement if you're the kind of manager we need.

Funnily enough, if you are all for the manager, even if we LOST against Madrid it shouldn't really alter your view. It won't alter my view that Rafa is very good over the cagey two legged affairs, one defeat won't change that. I actually don't think we'll win it, as once we get into the competition proper we are going to play against better teams than Madrid. If we start knocking out English clubs I'll start thinking it's possible, but until then we are only just reaching the point where we really ought to get to as a minimum standard (last 8) so I aren't getting too excited just yet.

All that said, seeing as how we're going to surrender our league title record to the Mancs, it would be lovely to extend the Champions League lead. We've definately got a chance with Rafa at the helm so fingers crossed, but for me the way the league campagin panned out, and the way the manager was culpable in us pulling up while in front means that he's used up all his excuses in my eyes.

He will though sign a new contract, and all his supporters will get a chance to be proven right. My guess is we'll have at least another two years of him. That'll make it seven seasons then, hopefully sometime between now and then we can add to the two trophies he's won. Even better, hopefully everyones undying faith in Rafa is repaid and he becomes the legend many claim he already is. We'll see.

normaly I would agree but still to win CL with this squad I would have to conceed this time around rafa wasn't lucky and has some degree of management skill.

would I still not want him as manager next season and fact he wins it would seal fact that our team will only be a 1 trick wonder and I want to see more from my liverpool then that tbh.

I want to see us grow into a great league team that fears no one I don't see that atm , I fear so much for likes of carra and gerrard who ain't getting any younger , they might just never win the league and that would be such a shame.

So next season its stick or twist I think we need to twist.

[NiftyNeil]

Sorry but no.

Cast your mind back ten years to the 98-99 season Mick, we didn't even qualify for Europe. That was the worst season in my living memory, mainly due to the fact that the Mancs won the treble. I think it's really arrogant of anyone to say that the Champion's League is not good enough. We're all frustrated about the league, but I'd take old big ears as a consolation any day of the week.

[account deleted by request]

I think it's easy to forget that Benitez has made us the team we are in Europe.  He has raised the profile of the club and also helped the club financially by doing so well in Europe.  He gets crucified for his 'net spend' but he has made a lot of that money himself by outsmarting far better teams than us in Europe over recent seasons.

Because of this raised profile we have been able to attract players like Torres and Mascherano.  Do you think Torres would have signed if we weren't such a force in the Champions League?  No way.

Given then that Benitez has given us the platform to compete for the CL and the league for that matter, does he not deserve to see his project through?  Not necessarily my own opinion, but is another way of looking at it.

Its a very good point John, i am certain that before Rafa and all the success in the champions league the likes of Torres and Mascherano probably wouldnt of signed, definately not Torres who had turned down Chelsea.

What we have to look at from my point of view is, if we keep Rafa can we get back to the top of our own tree (the league) ?
The answer for me is a definate no, so (if we get the ownership sorted) then regardless of winning the champions league i would advocate a new start.

Fair points.

I would argue that no manager could come in and win the league for us without significant investment in the playing staff.  And I'm not talking about a big 'net spend' over 5 years.  I'm talking about 2, if not 3 20 million pound players in key positions - ie striker and right mid definitely and then either a full back or left mid - to come in in one transfer window.

Look at our team man for man against United's and how the feck can any of us really expect to win the league.

The idea of a TEAM IS THAT THE SUM IS GREATER THAN THE INDIVIDUAL PARTS. If you use a revolving door transfer policy you will never achieve that (maybe a brilliant man manager could)

The Forest team that won the league and 2 European cups wasn't a great side had few great players yet swept all before it for a couple of years. How many of their players would have got in the Liverpool team 1 possibly 2 ?

The Blackburn team that won the league under Kenny, how many would have got in the Mancs team ?

A managers job is MORE than buying more expensive players than your rivals, its blending them in such a way that the sum of the TEAM is greater than the parts.

Great managers achieve this, other managers ask for more money.

I'd argue s@int that our team is greater than the sum of its parts.  With our current set of players I don't think we'd do any better with a different manager to be perfectly honest.  You could argue though that our manager has had five years to build this side and if the players aren't good enough that's his fault.  That's another debate.  We have only two genuine world class players yet hung onto United's coat tails for much of the season and consistently get to the latter stages of the CL.

Comparisons with the Forest sides and the Blackburn side are pointless imo.  Football in England has moved on a lot since then.  The English top flight and the European cup are harder to win now.  There is not such an even distribution of footballing talent throughout Europe now, it is now all concentrated in the Premiership and La Liga, and now less so in Italy and Germany.  Winning the competition is now beyond French and Dutch teams and probably anyone else for that matter.  The top teams in the Premiership and in Europe are now stronger than the top teams were 10 or 20 years ago.

You can't rely on a team simply being more than the sum of its parts these days to win a league.  A knock-out such as the CL maybe - Benitez with Liverpool and Mourinho with Porto proved that.  But a league?  I'm sorry but for me you need world class or at least top class players in most positions to win the Premiership these days.  We don't have that and it doesn't matter who the manager is he wouldn't win the league with our current squad.

I think we may have to agree to disagree here mate, I think another manager could possibly have won the League with Liverpool this season. The situation this season was to an extent quite unique. The Arsenal team blowing up, Chelsea's team seemingly stopped trying untill they aquired a new manager( maybe you have a better explanation?) and the Mancs got stuck in the starting gate.

Our season was blessed with good fortune early on, sendings off(6 I think?), great comebacks and own goals all playing their part, to put us in a position that most of us could only dream of.

That we didn't take advantage of this "once in a lifetime opportunity" is not coincidence, bad luck, or "just one of those things" imo. Its bad planning, poor decisions and a manager that took his eye off the ball, more interested in winning his off field battles than concentrating on getting things right on the field.

I think we showed bad planning both in the summer not getting a replacement for Finnan, and with the curious case of Keane. Poor decisions both in team selection, formation and reluctance to "go for it" on a number of occasions.

To me it was almost like a gambler that finds himself the big winner of big pot. All he wants is to protect what he has already won, but in doing so finds his pot slowly dwindling as he stops playing as aggressively while other players play the cards they are dealt.

I don't honestly believe that Rafa gets the best out of our team in the prem. I think he gets the best out of our team in Europe because he plays to our strength which is a strong defence, few mistakes and stopping the other team from playing.

Thats not enough in the prem, you need to win much more often and maybe risk losing so that you can win.

I don't believe you need World class players to win the prem , what you need is a well balanced squad of top players that give 100% every time they go out on the field, that play together as a team and that wont accept second best. Obviously having a few World class players as well won't harm your chances, but they need to be part of the team rather than THE TEAM.

No mate, for me there are quite a few managers that would have won the league with Liverpool this season. Not because we have the best team or the best players, but because of the fortuitous set of circumstances that gave us such a once in a lifetime opportunity. 

All that and maybe a manager that didn't freeeze in the headlights once the opportunity arose.

I have always believed that all other things being equal the best eleven players will more often than not win the game. The best TEAM wins the prem.

You don't get a great team by bringing in 6 or 7 players every season and moving six or seven players on.

[zarababe]

Ok I have to get soemthing off my chest here.  It is insane to think that the CL is some easy competition that we automatically reach the last 8 in.  I genuinely cannot believe that argument.

The difference between the CL and the PL for us is we won it in 2005 and Rafa has built up an aura about the team and himself which makes us feared and favourites in it.  The reverse is true of the league unfortunately.  I think that we have proved this season that we can fight for the league and I expect us now to be stronger but we still havent got the correct mentality in the squad to go that little bit more.  Manu have this and this adds to our despair.

Regardless of what other results are if we won our last league games and lost to Madrid then I would take that as IMO we need to prove more in the league but a club like ours should do both to be honest.  But if we progress in the CL then I still wouldnt like to see it prioritised as we should be fighting on different fronts come this time in the season.

And please dont say that Rafa prioritises anything.  He is pragmatic to see what can be won but to think he is not interested in the league is IMO scandalous

Top post Taff 

Of course winning the CL would be awesome again. Ask Chealsea, Fran Lamps and Terry oh and Abramhovic, what they would class it as ?

It is a privilege to have a winners medal for the 'world cup' of club football - undoubtedly the most prestigious of club comps.

A sound position in the league and CL success would be a good season, with us establishing some tiltle tilt credentials this year and pushing on in 2009/10.

Of ocurse still hoping for some miracle re: the league, but not lost belief yet !

[JC_81]

No mate, for me there are quite a few managers that would have won the league with Liverpool this season. Not because we have the best team or the best players, but because of the fortuitous set of circumstances that gave us such a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying mate, but certainly not the bit I've quoted.

In an absolute freak season with absolutely no injuries to key players and the rub of the green in the big games then yes, it is perhaps possible for some manager to win the league with our current squad.  But in real life players get injured, Torres has been fully fit for only a handful of games this season and Gerrard has had injuries too.  They are our only real goal threats in the squad.  If someone said at the start of the season we'd have been United's strongest challengers and in the latter stages of the CL WITHOUT Torres for large parts of the season I wouldn't have thought it possible to be honest - more likely fighting for 4th.  As it is we should be good for a top 3 finish and you never know in the CL.

Just out of interest, which managers do you think would have won the league for us this season?

[account deleted by request]

No mate, for me there are quite a few managers that would have won the league with Liverpool this season. Not because we have the best team or the best players, but because of the fortuitous set of circumstances that gave us such a once in a lifetime opportunity.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying mate, but certainly not the bit I've quoted.

In an absolute freak season with absolutely no injuries to key players and the rub of the green in the big games then yes, it is perhaps possible for some manager to win the league with our current squad.  But in real life players get injured, Torres has been fully fit for only a handful of games this season and Gerrard has had injuries too.  They are our only real goal threats in the squad.  If someone said at the start of the season we'd have been United's strongest challengers and in the latter stages of the CL WITHOUT Torres for large parts of the season I wouldn't have thought it possible to be honest - more likely fighting for 4th.  As it is we should be good for a top 3 finish and you never know in the CL.

Just out of interest, which managers do you think would have won the league for us this season?

I think that a different manager might have provided us with better cover than we have for Gerrard and Torres mate.(Or at the very least not sold the only player we had as cover)

I think I actually read somewhere that our record WITH Keane was better than our record WITH Torres this season? (obviously a bit of a statistical glitch if true, but nonetheless a talking point)

I think Fergie, Mourinho, Dalglish would have won the title given that we were 10 points clear of the mancs(I know, they had a couple of games in hand)but we could and should have been more than 10 points clear anyway given where and when we had dropped silly points.

Tbh I am not really an expert on Managers, I had never even heard of Benitez before he was mentioned as likely to be our next manager. So in all probability there are quite a few good managers out there that either I have never noticed or heard much of.   

I had heard of Valencia, seen them play, but while I knew of a few of their players that I would have liked at Liverpool, their manager (Rafa) had not been something I had considered.

[tubby]

CL would of course be enough. Realistically did anyone really expect us to win the league? Our goal was to close the gap on Chelsea and Utd and we have more than done that. We led for half the season after all.

Had Gerrard and Torres been fit all season who knows what might have happened but if we win the CL I will still be very happy despite blowing a great chance to win the league.

[JC_81]

I think that a different manager might have provided us with better cover than we have for Gerrard and Torres mate.(Or at the very least not sold the only player we had as cover)

I certainly agree with that.  I'm not happy with our squad - there are glaring deficiencies in key areas which are plain to see.  But the question here is whether another manager with our current squad could have won the league.  We'll agree to differ on that I think.

[Madmax]

Would be great if we won the champs league again and atleast show mannure try to catch up this record ya feck faces.. Really gutted how we handed the title to mannure and other issues with rafa and the owners that are fecking us up day in day out...

Anyways as for the thread i would regard it as a good season if we won the champs league and finished 2nd or 3rd... Would be even great if we could close the gap with mannue to atleast 4 points.. Will show we have progressed.

[bigmick]

It's strange that in a thread where someone asks "would it be enough to win the Champions League", you answer it and people start shifting about on their seats and get wound up. Why? I've been accused of being fickle many times (by fickle people mostly ) but now because my conviction is that we need a new manager, and it wouldn't change if we won three more Champions League ties, it winds people up?

Look, I said in my first post that Rafa is an excellent Champions League manager. We already knwo that. Even if Madrid go to Anfield and win 2-0, it doesn't change the fact that Rafa is an excellent Champions League manager. Are all the people who are getting annoyed going to jump ship and say "ah feck it sack him" if that happens? If they are, they shouldn't. Presumeably at the core of most peoples wish to keep Rafa as manager, and to continue the rafalution, is the belief that he is an excellent manager in Europe. Well he still will be, absolutely regardless of how we go in this knock our competition from here on in. I actually think it would be very fickle to suddently turn your back on the manager if you previously supported him simply because we lost a penalty shoot out or something. Similarly though, given we are all aware he is a fantastic manager in Europe, it would be silly if he were to prove it again to suddenly change my stance on him.

I've already said if I was betting on it, I don't think we will win the Champions League, although obviously we have as good a chance as everyone else. If we do win it, we'll almost ceertainly have to beat two English clubs at least, and as we discovered last season, even if they are managed by Avram Grant that's not easy, even for Rafa.

Lets just enjoy the ride. We have the got the advantage that we're not competing on multiple fronts which is obviously a plus in this sense. So lets see how we go.

As for the arrogance of feeling we should reach the last eight at least, it's just by looking at how the English clubs do. They all, almost always reach the last 8 at least. I'm not saying Rafa hasn't done well to get us to that point because he has. It's a fact though that the English teams very rarely fail to get to the last 8. That's what we ought to be aiming for as a minimum.

The reason I want to change the manager though is because I would like the team to win the Premiership. Simple really.

[Ace Ventura]

It's strange that in a thread where someone asks "would it be enough to win the Champions League", you answer it and people start shifting about on their seats and get wound up. Why? I've been accused of being fickle many times (by fickle people mostly ) but now because my conviction is that we need a new manager, and it wouldn't change if we won three more Champions League ties, it winds people up?

Look, I said in my first post that Rafa is an excellent Champions League manager. We already knwo that. Even if Madrid go to Anfield and win 2-0, it doesn't change the fact that Rafa is an excellent Champions League manager. Are all the people who are getting annoyed going to jump ship and say "ah feck it sack him" if that happens? If they are, they shouldn't. Presumeably at the core of most peoples wish to keep Rafa as manager, and to continue the rafalution, is the belief that he is an excellent manager in Europe. Well he still will be, absolutely regardless of how we go in this knock our competition from here on in. I actually think it would be very fickle to suddently turn your back on the manager if you previously supported him simply because we lost a penalty shoot out or something. Similarly though, given we are all aware he is a fantastic manager in Europe, it would be silly if he were to prove it again to suddenly change my stance on him.

I've already said if I was betting on it, I don't think we will win the Champions League, although obviously we have as good a chance as everyone else. If we do win it, we'll almost ceertainly have to beat two English clubs at least, and as we discovered last season, even if they are managed by Avram Grant that's not easy, even for Rafa.

Lets just enjoy the ride. We have the got the advantage that we're not competing on multiple fronts which is obviously a plus in this sense. So lets see how we go.

As for the arrogance of feeling we should reach the last eight at least, it's just by looking at how the English clubs do. They all, almost always reach the last 8 at least. I'm not saying Rafa hasn't done well to get us to that point because he has. It's a fact though that the English teams very rarely fail to get to the last 8. That's what we ought to be aiming for as a minimum.

The reason I want to change the manager though is because I would like the team to win the Premiership. Simple really.

Am agreeing with ye mick about still changing manager, provided we sort the ownership issue that is. The reason being is that if we dont changing the manager might mean that someone new comes in and doesnt have any money to do what they want or require.

But, what i want to know about your opinion of the champions league and your sort of idea that we should always at least be last 8, what if Villa or Everton got fourth ?

How would you expect them to fare ?

[bigmick]

If Everton get fourth, they would go about as well as they did last time they qualified I think. They won't get fourth obviously, but since you ask Ace they'd bomb out. That's because they aren't an especially good team, and their particular brand of football which is quite physical would be frowned upon in Europe. It's all very well playing us three times in two weeks (two fo them at Anfield) and not losing any of them, knocking us out of the FA Cup into the process, but they'd find it harder in Europe I think.

Equally, if Villa qualified (once again I don't think they will) they'd do very well to get to the last 8. We saw after the English clubs being banned, that in Europe you need experience, built up over a couple of seasons. Villa would get it in the end I'm sure, their manager managed to pick it up OK at Celtic, but first time up they'd struggle I think.

Managers at clubs though who are in the higher echelons on English football are at a huge advantage, given their spending power and size of their squads. That's why FIFA are trying to tinker with the rules. In fairness it's something I've been on about for a couple of years now, it's not by any means Rafa's fault, but it would be short sighted not to point out that the English teams absolutely dominate the competition these days. Avram Grant came within the width of a post of winning it at the first attempt for Chelsea last season so it's doable. I don't think we should base our decision on who should be the manager though on coin flip penalty shootouts and winning three or four ties in a knockout competition.

It's also worth pointing out that we are some way away from winning it yet despite this debate, we aren't even in the last 8 yet. If we don't win it, that's three seasons, three seasons without any kind of trophy. Makes next season a huge one by any definition. We haven't even got the Arsenal scenario where we are running at a profit to pay for a stadium but have a by all accounts fantastic set of youngsters. The term "sleeping giant" is not that far over the horizon if we don't pull our finger out.

[crazyhorse]

The main crux of my thought is that if we were to win the CL this year, we cannot really call ourselves the best team in Europe. There are at least three at this moment in time who i see as being superior to us...

We have to win the league. Until we do Manure will rightly claim to be the best team in the world..  I suppose it is all about bragging rights.. We are number one for history, tradition, integrity and many other things but have not done it on the pitch for 20 years. That is the point... we have to win that competion over 38 games to call ourselves the best.