Liverpool FC Forum

Zidane wrote:Yeah, go back a page or two there is a thread on this started by Fo Dne with more in depth conversation.

bigmick wrote:It was truly an awful goal wasn't it? The trouble is when people discuss the concession of goals, they talk about systems rather than players when often it is individual mistakes which are to blame, not systems.

There were it looked to me three or four things wrong with the goal, two or three players to blame. Firstly, I cannot see why Riera doesn't head it. If you put a bloke on the front zone who isn't marking anybody, he has to head it. His job, is to ask the free kick taker a difficult question, he has to clear you before he gets it into the danger area. Arteta (I think it was) didn't, Riera should have headed it away. Nothing to do with systems that one, he just didn't attack it and clear the ball.

Now in behind him we have Hyppia and Skyrtel. I only saw the goal on the telly and haven't looked at it again (apart from on the replays obviously), but Skyrtel looks to me like he wanders off in behind Reina and into no mans land. He's not got a zone, and he ain't got Cahill either. Cahill ducks in front of Riena, and when Riera doersn't head it he scores the simplest of goals.

It's not the first time that Skyrtel has demonstrated his "standby" function, but it was the cruelest of moments for it to rear its head. I also can't understand given Everton's aerial danger (particularly from Cahill) why we didn't put Skrtel at the front where Riera was and tell hi to attack it.

We normally defend set-pieces extremely well in fairness, but that was not a good example. I don't though think any system in the World is going to compensate for one player not heading it, and another going to sleep. It was a truly awful goal, and I've no doubt it'll be studied at some length behind closed doors.

agree.. i thought riera should have done better aswell..

i also thought reina was supposed to stay in his position rather than make that dive to the far post... he was in the right place at first as ud expect but as soon as the ball came in he made a needless dive to the far post and any chance of him making a stop was gone...
having said that, given the range from which the ball was headed and the pace on the ball i dnt think he had much chance of doing anything about it anyways...

defensive setpieces dont bother me as much as attacking ones... absolute waste there... 

bigmick wrote:It was truly an awful goal wasn't it? The trouble is when people discuss the concession of goals, they talk about systems rather than players when often it is individual mistakes which are to blame, not systems.

There were it looked to me three or four things wrong with the goal, two or three players to blame. Firstly, I cannot see why Riera doesn't head it. If you put a bloke on the front zone who isn't marking anybody, he has to head it. His job, is to ask the free kick taker a difficult question, he has to clear you before he gets it into the danger area. Arteta (I think it was) didn't, Riera should have headed it away. Nothing to do with systems that one, he just didn't attack it and clear the ball.

Now in behind him we have Hyppia and Skyrtel. I only saw the goal on the telly and haven't looked at it again (apart from on the replays obviously), but Skyrtel looks to me like he wanders off in behind Reina and into no mans land. He's not got a zone, and he ain't got Cahill either. Cahill ducks in front of Riena, and when Riera doersn't head it he scores the simplest of goals.

It's not the first time that Skyrtel has demonstrated his "standby" function, but it was the cruelest of moments for it to rear its head. I also can't understand given Everton's aerial danger (particularly from Cahill) why we didn't put Skrtel at the front where Riera was and tell hi to attack it.

We normally defend set-pieces extremely well in fairness, but that was not a good example. I don't though think any system in the World is going to compensate for one player not heading it, and another going to sleep. It was a truly awful goal, and I've no doubt it'll be studied at some length behind closed doors.

Leonmc0708 wrote:some fair points but covering old ground - I will merge it with the other one when I have finished kicking the sh.it out of the cat.

Now merged...and I agree with Mick.  If Riera does his job, there's no goal.  Shocking lapse from the Spaniard.

bigmick wrote:True Bob, but it's worth noting that we attack as a team, we defend as a team and often we make mistakes a s a team as well. I cannot understand for the life of me for instance, why one of the three centre backs we had on the pitch (Carragher, Hyppia and Skyrtel) doesn't take up Riera's position. It looked to me like they went into the same defensive formation they use from a corner, and obviously as it comes in from a different angle it presents a different problem.

Riera must head it and there's no excuses, but with a couple of minutes to go I'd like to see Carra perhaps, or even Gerrard get their erse to the front of the box and say to Arteta, "you've gotta get it over me first fella and you ain't got a sh!t show". Against Cherlsea in a similar situation (probably not now but certainly previously) you'd have had to get it round John Terry. At Man Utd, probably O'Shea would contest it, but failing that with moments to go, a Vidic or a Ferdinand would come to the front. Whoever it was though, would be screaming at everyone else and have their own ears ringing from the others telling them to "be first", "put your body on the line" "commit 100%" "attack it!!".

It probably comes back to that "winning mentality" which I've referred to a few times. It's no good blaming systems if you concede goals at such a vital stage as we did tonight. I'd go as far as saying that if I was hairy ersed centre half it's no good blaming Riera either (even though it's his fault ). Nope, if I'm defending for my life and I want the ball clearing, I'll take the front stick meself and I'll head it out I'll bet you as much as you like. I haven't though been running around for 85 minutes (or I wouldn't even be able to type "head it" never mind do it) which is why the concentration wanders, the commitment flags, the ballwatching increases and the Riera syndrome of tonight, "ah someone else'll clear it" creeps in.

Riera and Skyrtel's fault 100%. I'll be you though Carra, Hyppia and Gerrard are thinking "feck the system, I should have taken the responsibility myself". They're probably right too.

What a bad goal to concede so late in the game.. considering you already knew ALL your rivals won and won late

I think the lack of "winning mentality" Mick mentioned was a big big factor. I have been arguing and I will do once more here... that if the game last night was champ league or FA cup semi-final, and we were leading 1-0, I think we would have held on more often than not. We (rafa, players and fans alike) are just not yet familiar with grinding out wins in the league... The draws are killing us.

Back to zonal marking.. I know I have this doubt before and so it proved costly last night. This is what I observed..

Our players were each marking a zone.. and Everton players were assigned to "obstruct" each of our players in their respective zone. I thought hyypia was blocked and "man-handled" by lescott.. then in came Cahill who was totally unmarked sneaking into what I thought is Hyypia's zone and have a free header.

If you can't even cover your whole zone due to blocking, isn't there a big risk of creating "free" spaces like what happened last night?

From yesterday incident, I actually thought if "man-handling" & blocking can be done subtly enough not to get fouls and delivery is accurate, then zonal marking has a a big loop-hole.

Thoughts anyone?

alanricouk wrote:Zonal marking is easy to exploit if you know how. If you have the run on the best defenders, you can beat them for height, and you'll always win the duel.

Still though, we'll keep it, and concede to it again.