Liverpool FC Forum

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 7:45 pm

Ciggy wrote:
metalhead wrote:Imagine if Torres was playing today

16 - 0 FACT

Were did you get the 16 from :laugh:

i would of rounded it off an gone for 20 :laugh:

by **7_Kewell** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:13 pm

did anyone see Owen's face when he was taken off :laugh:

by **Kash_Mountain** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 8:49 pm

J*o*n*D*o*e wrote:great day with chelsea only drawing, we applied the pressure with playing first and its paid off, manure might have 3 games in hand but they have to win them first.

well done lads

Mwanck Utd will lose two and draw one.

by **Scottbot** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:29 pm

A little montage of pre-match forum opinion. I shared similar concerns when I saw the line-up but fookin ell! Didn't they play well. Does anyone else love playing Newcastle? We always batter em!

Pre-Match

WTF??? Keane on the bench? So what it's 4-5-1 with Babel playing lone striker? Chirst why is Keane on the bench,

3 of our best players against Bolton Reira, Alonso and Keane all on the bench

What has Kuyt done in the last 3 games to warrant a start?

Rafa does it again

I can understand resting 1 or 2 players since we only played 2 days ago..but there is no way Keane should be left out,he's not gonna be feeling tired after scoring two,more like chomping at the bit to play again.
Rafa has set himself up for a hammering should we not win today.

Rafa will be slaughtered if we don't win this game...and rightly so after all the needless tinkering.

Was Kuyt injected with the "super solider serum" ? Why does he have to play every game ?.... even when he was the worst player for us against bolton ?

Gosh....... And also, does benitez want keane to lose form ? If u look at keane's stats from previous seasons, he usually scores in "a patch".... He scores 3 goals in 2 games and is dropped ?

I'm a bit tanked up here so apologies for any speaking out of turn, but that is an absolutely ridiculous team selection. Even if we win, it's still ridiculous. Why? because we are passing up the opportunity to continue Keane's roll. I cannot believe the silliness of it. Quote me when we've won the game 3-0 by all means, that is an absolutely ludicrous team selection.

I see Rafa's Meds have worn off.

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:48 pm

sgs wrote:
bigmick wrote:I'm a bit tanked up here so apologies for any speaking out of turn, but that is an absolutely ridiculous team selection. Even if we win, it's still ridiculous. Why? because we are passing up the opportunity to continue Keane's roll. I cannot believe the silliness of it. Quote me when we've won the game 3-0 by all means, that is an absolutely ludicrous team selection.

Hind sight is 20/20 but I could'nt help but notice this comment b/4 the game started..

Is the object of team selection to win a match or to preserve a particular player's form?

It is precisely comments like this that simply turns you off this site sometimes.

Its the team stuupid![B]

The object of team selection is not only in cliche terms, "to take each game as it comes", it's also to build a momentum and a team mentality which carries you to a points total which is the best the group of players can achieve. I think if Keane had played, he would have scored. Just my opinion of course, but if he had scored a goal or two, it would have meant that we had a striker on our hands who had scored in the last three league matches and was absolutely on fire.

Is that important? Well you obviously don't think so, which is fine. I think it is though to be perfectly honest. We are all hoping that Torres is going to come back soon, but there are no certainties. If he doesn't come back and start scoring instantly, infact even if he does, it would be a bit of a result if our 20 million quid second striker was in good form as well. It won't matter of course if we play against teams as good as Newcastle reserves every week, but my guess is we'll play against better teams than that and we'll need someone other than Gerrard to provide a goal threat.

We could on the other hand continue to play Dirk Kuyt up front, and mess around with Keane so he never sure whether or not he's going to play, and whether or not the sub board is going to have his number on it. It may be the case that it doesn't matter, it won't have any effect whatsoever on how well he plays. Then again, it may not.

Then, three or four weeks down the track and we need a goal/performance from our 20 million quid striker and we don't get one, we'll all be scratching our heads and wondering why.

I'm sorry my post is the kind which turns you off the forum. My advice is not to read them anymore because they are all of a similar ilk. Read Emerald Reds posts, or GYBS's, or Sabre's if you are feeling a tad more controversial (no pop at those lads there, simply pointing out that they are a bit more HC than me). Leave mine well alone though, because when you've had a bloke finally get going half way through a season, score 3 times in two matches and you leave him out, the chances are I'll have something to say about it. Sorry and all that, but that's the way it is.

As it is I stand by my opinion voiced before the game. If Keane wasn't injured, not playing him was a ridiculous decision. In actual fact, seeing how bad Newcastle were I'm even more convinced that keane should have played. Against them, I absolutely fail to see how any centre forward could play in that game and not score, or at least have a hatful of chances.

Even deadly Dirk had a shot in the first half, although of course he didn't actually manage to score. Goodness knows how, St James should be one of his favourite grounds after his knee rebound/deflection thing of a couple of seasons ago. Perhaps he remembered what happened to him the next game after he broke his drought, he was dropped of course.

Keane has much to learn.

by **GYBS** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 9:56 pm

can understand your reasons for wanting keane to play ie to keep up his good scoring touch and keep his confidence high , if we had of lost or not done so well then think it would of had a big effect on th squad but with such a good win and such a good performance then i think it could also work out in a positive way for keane - ie he is part of th squad and should feel good that we are doing well as he has been a part of it this season and i think he understands its all about the team , if he is constantly rested then thats a different story . I think it will all have a positive effect . Hopefully anyway

by **account deleted by request** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:12 pm

bigmick wrote:Even deadly Dirk had a shot in the first half, although of course he didn't actually manage to score. Goodness knows how, St James should be one of his favourite grounds after his knee rebound/deflection thing of a couple of seasons ago. Perhaps he remembered what happened to him the next game after he broke his drought, he was dropped of course.

Keane has much to learn.

classic!

by **NANNY RED** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:16 pm

Tbh Though Mick i was as gobsmacked as anyone when i seen the starting line up but i had a feeling in my gut yesterday that Keane wouldnt start weather he did pic up an injury in the warm up i dont know. But i spotted him in the Bolton game holding his back just before he came off so maybe he was a bit crocked. But with or without him we done just fine i was more amused that Xabi was on the bench more so than Keane but Rafa has his Methods an these methods seem to be paying off. Newcastle were diabolical today but as the saying goes you can only beat whats in front of you .

Im just still made up were top an our golden boy has yet to put in an appearence, Made up to see Sktel back an all .

Theres a method to Rafas madness sometimes but i dont think anyone of us has figured it out yet. Even the other managers havnt got a clue what hes gonna do. Ill bet you a pound to a penny Alladyce set up his centre backs to deal with Keane. :laugh:

Put it this way if we win the league ill be quiet happy for our manager to be known as a mad man :laugh:

by **JC_81** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:27 pm

Anyone else notice Andy Gray and Jamie Redknapp sharpening the knives for Rafa before the game today when they saw the team selection. Pair of tw@ts they are. I don't care if Redknapp was club captain here once upon a time, he is a rubbish pundit and everything he says is completely predictable.

Both of them had to eat their words after the game though.

I can't imagine Keane was fully fit to be honest, otherwise he surely would have played. Benitez can make strange decisions, but there must have been a good reason for not starting Keane.

by **Madmax** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:49 pm

Absolutely fab win. bring it on lads. Common. glad chelsea dropped points. 5-1 what a thrashing really didnt expect it at all. Newcastle were always going to concede a few goals at home considering thier stat but didnt think it was going to be 5. good job lads keep it up and you never know if we continue in this great form come may...will be champs..

by **Bad Bob** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 10:57 pm

I was completely non-plussed with the team selection before kick off. Yes, resting players was essential, having just played on Friday, but there's no way Keane should have been one of them. I've not seen any confirmation yet of this knock he's meant to have picked up but that's the only reason I can see not starting him, given his recent form.

With that said, didn't we boss that match in style? Well played Lucas. I was spitting tacks when he missed that sitter but he was a real handful today. Masch was strong as well, not just in the tackle like you'd expect, but in terms of his passing game. I thought Kuyt held the ball up well and linked effectively with Gerrard on occasion but otherwise looked to be lumbering about. Insua had another accomplished game and is starting to look at home in the starting 11. Babel was a passenger for most of the match but scored a vital goal so I'll leave it at that. And, I thought Benayoun had another strong game and is starting to play his way into the reckoning on the right flank. Anyway, a lovely result from a very entertaining game and it's wonderful to greet 2009 three points clear at the top of the table! :nod

by **sgs** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:02 pm

bigmick wrote:
sgs wrote:
bigmick wrote:I'm a bit tanked up here so apologies for any speaking out of turn, but that is an absolutely ridiculous team selection. Even if we win, it's still ridiculous. Why? because we are passing up the opportunity to continue Keane's roll. I cannot believe the silliness of it. Quote me when we've won the game 3-0 by all means, that is an absolutely ludicrous team selection.

Hind sight is 20/20 but I could'nt help but notice this comment b/4 the game started..

Is the object of team selection to win a match or to preserve a particular player's form?

It is precisely comments like this that simply turns you off this site sometimes.

Its the team stuupid![B]

The object of team selection is not only in cliche terms, "to take each game as it comes", it's also to build a momentum and a team mentality which carries you to a points total which is the best the group of players can achieve. I think if Keane had played, he would have scored. Just my opinion of course, but if he had scored a goal or two, it would have meant that we had a striker on our hands who had scored in the last three league matches and was absolutely on fire.

Is that important? Well you obviously don't think so, which is fine. I think it is though to be perfectly honest. We are all hoping that Torres is going to come back soon, but there are no certainties. If he doesn't come back and start scoring instantly, infact even if he does, it would be a bit of a result if our 20 million quid second striker was in good form as well. It won't matter of course if we play against teams as good as Newcastle reserves every week, but my guess is we'll play against better teams than that and we'll need someone other than Gerrard to provide a goal threat.

We could on the other hand continue to play Dirk Kuyt up front, and mess around with Keane so he never sure whether or not he's going to play, and whether or not the sub board is going to have his number on it. It may be the case that it doesn't matter, it won't have any effect whatsoever on how well he plays. Then again, it may not.

Then, three or four weeks down the track and we need a goal/performance from our 20 million quid striker and we don't get one, we'll all be scratching our heads and wondering why.

I'm sorry my post is the kind which turns you off the forum. My advice is not to read them anymore because they are all of a similar ilk. Read Emerald Reds posts, or GYBS's, or Sabre's if you are feeling a tad more controversial (no pop at those lads there, simply pointing out that they are a bit more HC than me). Leave mine well alone though, because when you've had a bloke finally get going half way through a season, score 3 times in two matches and you leave him out, the chances are I'll have something to say about it. Sorry and all that, but that's the way it is.

As it is I stand by my opinion voiced before the game. If Keane wasn't injured, not playing him was a ridiculous decision. In actual fact, seeing how bad Newcastle were I'm even more convinced that keane should have played. Against them, I absolutely fail to see how any centre forward could play in that game and not score, or at least have a hatful of chances.

Even deadly Dirk had a shot in the first half, although of course he didn't actually manage to score. Goodness knows how, St James should be one of his favourite grounds after his knee rebound/deflection thing of a couple of seasons ago. Perhaps he remembered what happened to him the next game after he broke his drought, he was dropped of course.

Keane has much to learn.

You build momentum with the team and not the individual. That is a basic fact. Its four years since Benitez took the helm at Liverpool, which roughly translates to nearly four years of tired and ignorant drivel from your likes...

Yesterday it was Crouch, b/4 it was Gerrard; today its Keane!

Four years is long enough to understand any Manager, even a complex one like Benitez..

The man plays to the oppositions strengths and weaknesses and uses his squad from that strategic perspective, rotating them, not simply to keep players freash (important as it maybe), but to meet the afforesaid strategic end..

Every opposition and game is different and must be seen from the perspective it is played. Similarly, you can only truly assess a manger by first understanding the perspective from which he sees football and the opposition.

Without that, much of your comment is a waste of cyberspace...

by **sgs** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:27 pm

I suggest folks read the article below....

Benitez still walking alone.

By Dion Fanning

Sunday December 28 2008

After Chelsea's draw with Everton last Monday, Setanta briefly showed a Premier League table that had Roman Abramovich's side at the top.

The presenter of their coverage -- so laddish and egregious it makes Sky's seem like Kenneth Clark's Civilisation -- noted that Liverpool were actually top, the table on the screen was a mistake and would be immediately removed. But there was something telling in that mistake.

Few people expect Liverpool to remain top and it seems there is a hastiness to bundle them away so it can be explained just what they have done wrong.

Liverpool reached the halfway point of the season on St Stephen's Day at the top of the table, historically not a great position to be, but assailed on all sides by those who insist on telling Rafael Benitez that he's blowing it. For the first time in 12 years, Liverpool are leading at Christmas yet they are constantly being told that they should either be ahead by more or are lucky to be there at all.

This is not unusual. Since he took over, Benitez has become accustomed to being told he will never get it right. Those who spent most of the first season telling him he would not win the European Cup -- a contention they still hold to be valid in all aspects except the ultimate awkward fact of victory in Istanbul -- now say Liverpool are not doing enough to win the league. They may be correct but their presence is a reminder that they are usually wrong and Benitez is, more often, right.

These are the people who say that Liverpool are the greatest culprits in the league which, in the cliché du jour, nobody wants to win.

In fact, it seems it is a league that plenty of teams want to win or at least do well in, a departure from previous seasons which is what makes this season so exciting. There are fewer easy games, less teams who consider themselves beaten before they walk out at the big grounds. The tightness of the relegation battle also means that teams at the other end must search for points wherever they can get them.

Right now it is Chelsea and Manchester United who are blowing it, failing to take more opportunities than Liverpool to top the league. That is an empirical fact: otherwise one of them, not Liverpool, would be on top of the table.

Liverpool's achievement in becoming challengers in the first place given the chaos in the administration of the club seems to be ignored in favour of other lazy assumptions.

The next few months will not only establish whether Liverpool will last in the title race, they may also determine whether the club can continue to survive at all. The financial mess which Tom Hicks and George Gillett have caused will not be arrested without some outside help. Liverpool's sponsors confirmed last week that the club is up for sale, but failed to make it an attractive proposition by adding that "the only people who can invest are those not interested in making a profit".

Hicks and Gillett were never not interested in making a profit and it was Benitez who first exposed them with that uncanny instinct for spotting :censored:

.

Perhaps the bullshitters instinctively sense this and it is why they attack him so ferociously. For many years, they have criticised him for rotation when the reality was subtly different: Liverpool relied on too small a group of players. That has changed this season but instead it is said that Liverpool no longer rotate when Benitez continues to change his team as do the other managers in the top four. When Alex Ferguson changed his team last season, one reporter described it as the "ruthless genius" of the Manchester United manager. When Benitez does the same, they wonder when he will ever learn.

Liverpool have negotiated a tough period and remain top despite the absence of Fernando Torres (somebody will surely soon criticise Benitez for not playing him more often). If Torres returns and stays fit, they will view the second half of the season with optimism.

They may be optimistic but they will not be as positive as Manchester United who, for some reason, are supposed to have been cheered by the relative failure of the big four to win matches in recent weeks, although they were up to their necks in it as well. Their late goals against Sunderland and Stoke may have highlighted their problems with their strikers this season (Liverpool have scored more than them in the league this season), but their failure to score at Aston Villa or Tottenham or their dropped points at Everton and defeat at Arsenal also indicates their forward problem.

Dimitar Berbatov looks like another expensive mistake by Alex Ferguson. He has scored two league goals this season, three less than Robbie Keane and he has disrupted the balance of the side which could only accommodate the narcissist apathy of one player, Cristiano Ronaldo. Now they are being asked to accommodate two.

It was fitting that Carlos Tevez got the winner at Stoke and was brought in for a game which would always require a physical commitment lacking in Berbatov. Tevez may not last there much longer as he is forced out by United's need to play a player who does not look like a £30m footballer.

At the heart of United's challenge is Cristiano Ronaldo who was lucky not to be sent off for a third successive stamp after flinging a foot at an opponent during the game at Stoke. One of those stamping matches was against Sunderland when, tired of the punishment he was receiving, Ronaldo took the decision to substitute himself.

It was a move now totally in character as the player seems convinced that each game has been designed as an intricate vanity project to accommodate his mammoth ego. Last season, he often played as badly as he has this year but his goals led him to be acclaimed as the best player in the world. He still scores, but not as often and every game is now simply an opportunity to find out which referee will stand up to him.

As Ronaldo lashes out at those who he seems amazed to discover have not turned up to praise his genius, he is United's greatest liability as they attempt to win the title that would equal Liverpool's record.

The victory at Stoke was an important one for Ferguson as the unconvincing display did not matter after the trip to Japan. With home games against the top five to come, he will see the title as being in his hands. Yet it may be determined by how he deals with Ronaldo's increasingly desperate assaults on his authority.

But Ferguson will listen to the whisperings at his rivals and think he is doing alright. Liverpool have their problems and Chelsea have more money and more problems. Jose Mourinho remains the template for all Chelsea managers, particularly from many of the players who have not forgotten him. Luiz Felipe Scolari has, at times, looked bamboozled and been forced to deny the stories that there is dressing room displeasure at his selections and tactics.

He will have to convince them in the New Year. Chelsea are judged by a different standard and that is right. They can complain that nobody could cope with the loss of Drogba, but when they have brought Anelka to the club on a whim, there won't be too much sympathy.

Soon they will have Michael Essien back as well and Scolari will be assessed on his ability to fit them all in. Deco has slumped since his early season form, which suggested that Chelsea would be unstoppable. He was left out against West Brom on Friday as Scolari tried to accommodate Drogba and Anelka in the old formation. He appears to have a greater affection for Anelka, but the feeling will not be mutual if the striker spends a lot more time playing on the wing.

Chelsea's weaknesses have been exposed by Arsenal and Liverpool among others this season. Arsenal's problem seems to be that they can only beat teams in the top four, finding the tiresome triviality of playing the lesser matches beneath them.

This time last year they topped the table but it has been an uncomfortable year for Arsene Wenger. Next year doesn't look any better as they contemplate life without Cesc Fabregas, something they may have to get used to, and become increasingly shrill in their complaints.

Arsenal's Christmas period has been most calamitous. Failure to hold onto a lead against Villa and to beat Liverpool at the Emirates rules them out of the title race. But it is not just the results, it is the feeling that they remain a team on the verge of a nervous breakdown that will undo them.

The rest of the league has, at times, looked like it has been turned upside down.

Manchester City's win against Hull moved them out of the bottom three. City are the only club looking forward to January when they may become a one-club attempt to get money flowing through the economy again.

It is Stephen Ireland who again claimed attention over Christmas. He was excellent in the defeat at West Brom but against Hull he looked, once more, like one of the most gifted players of his generation.

Hull City's players spent half-time at the City of Manchester Stadium being addressed by their manager Phil Brown on the Eastlands pitch. There was one obvious reason for Brown's decision: :censored:

. Brown has become the latest man to be the next England manager, a title more toxic than being hailed as the next Bob Dylan. There was a time when it was Alan Pardew's to lose, before that Alan Curbishley and there seems to be only one role more certain to lead to calamity than being tipped as England manager and that is becoming England manager.

Brown doesn't see it that way and he cheered his media supporters by standing up to Premier League egos and keeping them on the pitch like schoolboys. How the Premier League egos he is planning to manage for the rest of his career feel about it remains to be seen.

Some of us expected Hull to be where West Brom are this Christmas and it will be harder for Tony Mowbray's side to move than it will be for Liverpool to be shifted at the other end.

With 10 points separating Hull in seventh from Stoke in 19th, this could be a year when both ends of the table are endlessly unpredictable. Sunderland should survive when the music stops, but if they do, expect their Irish influence to be almost non-existent by the start of next season. Roy Keane's appointment was a gamble that worked, up to a point; Ricky Sbragia's elevation yesterday is a different kind of gamble but the risk is just as big.

There are others like West Ham, Portsmouth and Middlesbrough who may find the struggle tougher, along with the more obvious relegation candidates, the promoted sides. Joe Kinnear's performance at Newcastle has, despite his early attempts, been remarkably understated, strange for a club of Newcastle's disposition. Damien Duff deserves a run free of injury and the club will need to hold on to Michael Owen and Shay Given, who really should give himself a break and join someone, anyone, else.

Liverpool were top the league at Christmas, a position which, according to Benitez, gives them an 80 per cent chance of finishing the season as champions. History contradicts this. Between 1992 and 2004, only three teams have won the title after being top at Christmas. In recent times, three of the last four winners were top at that point, but that only emphasises, once again, how uncompetitive the league had been.

Last year Wenger threatened to break through before Arsenal's injuries and their aggrieved reaction to those injuries brought them down. Liverpool have many things that can undermine them: Tom Hicks, George Gillett, Fernando Torres' hamstrings, Robbie Keane's nerves or Steven Gerrard's ego. But Benitez's management is, in Liverpool's context, a force for good. Rafa has built the team expertly, operating, contrary to conventional wisdom, superbly in the transfer market and he is managing a club that, right now, seems unmanageable. But there are a number of weaknesses in Liverpool's challenge and Chelsea's structure that should hand Manchester United an advantage. They have the manager and they have the tradition, but they may be undone by the Greek myth rather than the Greek god that is Ronaldo. They will also not be the first to underestimate Rafael Benitez and, by doing so, once again play right into his hands.

http://www.independent.ie/sport....40.html

by **bigmick** » Sun Dec 28, 2008 11:59 pm

sgs wrote:You build momentum with the team and not the individual. That is a basic fact. Its four years since Benitez took the helm at Liverpool, which roughly translates to nearly four years of tired and ignorant drivel from your likes...

Yesterday it was Crouch, b/4 it was Gerrard; today its Keane!

Four years is long enough to understand any Manager, even a complex one like Benitez..

The man plays to the oppositions strengths and weaknesses and uses his squad from that strategic perspective, rotating them, not simply to keep players freash (important as it maybe), but to meet the afforesaid strategic end..

Every opposition and game is different and must be seen from the perspective it is played. Similarly, you can only truly assess a manger by first understanding the perspective from which he sees football and the opposition.

Without that, much of your comment is a waste of cyberspace...

"Tired and ignorant drivel", "waste of cyberspace"?

Hmmm, guess we aren't going to be chums then. No matter.

Might be an idea though to mix in with your dismissal of someones point of view, some perspectives of your own. Aside from mentioning that the manager changes the team to play to the oppositions strengths and weaknesses (well I never) I notice that you don't actually offer any opinion of your own making.

I gather from the tone of your input that you broadly agree with most of the decisions which the manager makes, which is just lovely. FWIW I agree with quite a lot of them myself, but I think he makes mistakes, and forgive me but I will continue to infect cyberspace with my opinions when I think he's made one.

In the meantime I'll also read your posts with interest. The notion that he rotates not just to keep people fresh, but also to take into the account the oppositions strengths though isn't quite as revolutionary an idea as you seem to think though. As i said, a little less attack and little more insight might be the way to go.

Happy New Year by the way.

by **Sabre** » Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:16 am

Just finished watching the first half, and I have two comments.

Seriously, I can understand that English teams sign up players like Alonso, Cesc, and Reina because they're better than most. But let me be blunt, English football makes no favour to themselves by signing up players like José Enrique, Newcastle's LB. In a good day he's average, in a normal day he's too slow.

An otherwise good team with good players have a weak link in the Spaniard, and before the first goal, in which he was awful he made a lot of mistakes. If Newcastle fixes that weak link they may even finnish as they have better team than many.

Also, another comment about the last two games. You can be either zonal, or man marking, I don't care, I'm zonal, but a well done man marking is equally valid.

But can anyone explain me why many english teams do not put a defender in the first post in corners? Yeh I know the old story "That's the keeper's post" and "the defender and the keeper might disturb each other", but I think Riera's goal and some situations in Newcastle game are powerful counter arguments. I don't know what the people around here think about putting a man in the first post or not in corners.

Off to enjoy the second half.

P.S. A while ago, or last season, I think it was Ciggy who made a reasonable criticism about the lack of danger in attacking set pieces. That problem, which was evident, seems to be over for some reason.

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