Liverpool FC Forum

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:07 pm

well butt neville brown park fletcher arent exactly world beaters . And didnt rafa bringing off gerrard and replacing him with lucas in the derby actually help win the game for us ? And havent we actually gone on to win a number of games when keane has been replaced ?

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:38 pm

GYBS wrote:well butt neville brown park fletcher arent exactly world beaters . And didnt rafa bringing off gerrard and replacing him with lucas in the derby actually help win the game for us ? And havent we actually gone on to win a number of games when keane has been replaced ?

Yet again answering a question with a question.

Also, at what point have all of those been anymore than a squad player at United? Are you telling me Gary Neville's an average full back aswell? :laugh:

Shut up ya fool.

All have played due to injury and the odd selection and all ov those are on par with most of our decent squad players.

Again, ya wrong. Plain and simple.

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:46 pm

well i answer your question now answer mine about how we managed to win derby when gerrard got taken off plus the fact we have gone on to win a lot of games after keane has gone off . On the manc players - 1 . Was talking about phil neville and the guy played plenty of games 2 . Butt was pretty much first choice for a number of seasons early in his manc career . 3 . Brown spent the whole of last season playing every game nearly . 4 . Fletcher has been nearly ever present this season and 5 . Park has played a lot of games over last three seasons for them . And i wouldnt swap any of those 5 players for any of what we have and class them all as average .

by **aCe'** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:48 pm

GYBS wrote:well butt neville brown park fletcher arent exactly world beaters . And didnt rafa bringing off gerrard and replacing him with lucas in the derby actually help win the game for us ? And havent we actually gone on to win a number of games when keane has been replaced ?

im sorry but comeon seriously... gary neville, w.brown, Park and butt in his day were/are very good footballs and dont tell me you wouldnt take Brown and Park to start in our right side now... Park doesnt start every week but hes more than good enough to be a squad player... fletcher im not a big fan but still better than Lucas, surely ?!

you cant expect them to put out 11 worldclass players who are amongst the best 5 in the world in their positions .. they come close but dont try to compare Ferguson and the players he sticks with with Rafa and his selections..

Taking Gerrard off in the derby might have worked but whos to say Gerrard wouldnt have scored if he was still on.. same with Keane... whos to say we wouldnt have won more games if Rafa had picked or kept Keane in some of the games we drew or lost ? then again whos to say we wouldnt have lost ?

all in all the big question that i think Stu is trying to ask is why the fck does Rafa choose to mess around with something that to many is clear as day... Keane and Torres are our best options upfront.. Kuyt isnt.. Gerrard and Alonso are our 2 bestcentral midfielders... Lucas wouldnt get into most of the league sides...

baffling at times, brilliant at times... he'll always be criticized for his selections and subs.. hope it doesnt cost us a title challenge

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:58 pm

GYBS wrote:well i answer your question now answer mine about how we managed to win derby when gerrard got taken off plus the fact we have gone on to win a lot of games after keane has gone off . On the manc players - 1 . Was talking about phil neville and the guy played plenty of games 2 . Butt was pretty much first choice for a number of seasons early in his manc career . 3 . Brown spent the whole of last season playing every game nearly . 4 . Fletcher has been nearly ever present this season and 5 . Park has played a lot of games over last three seasons for them . And i wouldnt swap any of those 5 players for any of what we have and class them all as average .

Right, so you're telling me that Gerrard wouldn't have scored? He was the only player on the pitch pulling his weight and we got lucky. Simple as that. Obviously the Rafa brigade will tell it otherwise, but thats just a matter of uninformed opinion.

1. Phil Neville was never a regular. He played some games and was included in a few when they had injury problems then left, in order to find first team football.

2. Butt played ahead of Scholes and Keane? No he didn't. Again, you're wrong. He played when one was injured. Simple as that.

3. Brown played last season why? Oh thats right, Neville was, you guessed it INJURED...

Starting to see a pattern forming here.

4. Fletcher has been an ever present? So Hargreaves, Scholes and Anderson aren't ahead of him in the pecking order no?

Oh yeah, theres the pattern, none of them are regulars and only really play down to injury, just as a I said before. Theres that going round in circle thing you do so well again.

5. Thats why they've won so many league titles over the years and we've not. End of.

by **Madmax** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:59 pm

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:04 pm

i can compare who i want . And ifs and buts mean feck all . Rafa did take gerrard off in the derby cause he was having a shocker and he did put lucas on in his place and lucas did help produce the winner - no ifs and buts :censored:

there , it actually happened . Rafa has taken off keane early cause he hasnt been playing well and we have gone on to win the majority of games he has come off , no ifs and buts there just pure facts of what actually happened . For all of his supposed baffling tactics how the hell have we managed to finish a whole year unbeaten under rafa at home - the only team in the whole country , how the hell are we managing to stay top despite being without the best striker in the world if we have so many poor players and a supposedly tactically poor manager ? Is a fluke ? Luck ? Or maybe he does actually know what he is doing ?

by **Madmax** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:07 pm

GYBS wrote:i can compare who i want . And ifs and buts mean feck all . Rafa did take gerrard off in the derby cause he was having a shocker and he did put lucas on in his place and lucas did help produce the winner - no ifs and buts there , it actually happened . Rafa has taken off keane early cause he hasnt been playing well and we have gone on to win the majority of games he has come off , no ifs and buts there just pure facts of what actually happened . For all of his supposed baffling tactics how the hell have we managed to finish a whole year unbeaten under rafa at home - the only team in the whole country , how the hell are we managing to stay top despite being without the best striker in the world if we have so many poor players and a supposedly tactically poor manager ? Is a fluke ? Luck ? Or maybe he does actually know what he is doing ?

Its because we are destined to win the prem this year.

Rafa is great at tactics he does have bizzare chioces at times but as for the majority they work.

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:18 pm

GYBS wrote:i can compare who i want . And ifs and buts mean feck all . Rafa did take gerrard off in the derby cause he was having a shocker and he did put lucas on in his place and lucas did help produce the winner - no ifs and buts there , it actually happened . Rafa has taken off keane early cause he hasnt been playing well and we have gone on to win the majority of games he has come off , no ifs and buts there just pure facts of what actually happened . For all of his supposed baffling tactics how the hell have we managed to finish a whole year unbeaten under rafa at home - the only team in the whole country , how the hell are we managing to stay top despite being without the best striker in the world if we have so many poor players and a supposedly tactically poor manager ? Is a fluke ? Luck ? Or maybe he does actually know what he is doing ?

I for one certainly didn't say you can't compare anything or anyone.

You then say Gerrard was having a shocker? I'm sorry, but thats a clueless and rubbish statement. He was absoloutely everywhere trying to win us the game, he was playing well and Rafa got lucky with his change. He got away with it, FACT!

Rafa's taken Keane off early because he wasn't playing well? Why doesn't he take off Kuyt early who NEVER plays well?Why does he even play players like Lucas, Babel, Kuyt and Dossena in the first place?

Fact we were losing at Man City till he brought on Keane...

Who ever said Rafa was tactically poor? I certainly haven't. Read the thread I started on him. You'll clearly see me state I don't think he's poor tactically at all. Again showing how stupid you are to comprehend anything.

We're top of a weak premier league. Great, theres still 5 months of the season left lad. FACT! We've not won anything yet, FACT! We've dropped stupid points and been lucky that the other teams around us haven't capitilized, again. FACT!

Had Rafa not :censored:

around so much it could be argued we'd be in an even better position than we are now. We've got the core of a great team, Rafa will however never let it fulfill its potential. Opinion? Maybe, but I'm telling ya now, this side could be incredible, its just a shame we have a manager who doesn't see it.

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:22 pm

and stu go look at the stats off those players and either the mancs have had a lot of injuries or those players were more than back up . 1 butt - played over thirty games a season for the mancs after ince left and was first choice alongside keane until scholes moved from being a striker to a midfielder in the late 90s , even then he still played over half the league games a season until he left . 2 same with neville - consistently played well over half the league games a season 3 . Same with brown and fletcher and with park baring their own injuries . So they are more than back up for injured players . They are starters or were starters while they were at the club a lot of times .

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:23 pm

GYBS wrote:and stu go look at the stats off those players and either the mancs have had a lot of injuries or those players were more than back up . 1 butt - played over thirty games a season for the mancs after ince left and was first choice alongside keane until scholes moved from being a striker to a midfielder in the late 90s , even then he still played over half the league games a season until he left . 2 same with neville - consistently played well over half the league games a season 3 . Same with brown and fletcher and with park baring their own injuries . So they are more than back up for injured players . They are starters or were starters while they were at the club a lot of times .

Ok mong if you say so!

by **NANNY RED** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:37 pm

yous two are worse than man an wife :laugh:

hell its like reading a script for the Jeremy Kyle show Called does he know his tactics better than me :laugh:

I bet you if you stood havin a bevvi with each other your opinions would be quite similar on what is best for this club,

Ill play Cilla an arrange a blind date :laugh:

by **Fo Dne** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:42 pm

NANNY RED wrote:yous two are worse than man an wife

hell its like reading a script for the Jeremy Kyle show Called does he know his tactics better than me

I bet you if you stood havin a bevvi with each other your opinions would be quite similar on what is best for this club,

Ill play Cilla an arrange a blind date

Anyone who thinks playing the likes of Kuyt and Lucas is good for this club needs a dig. Simple as that.

by **bigmick** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:45 pm

A couple of pages back I posted that I hope Keane wasn't dropped/rested/rotated/had his name picked out of the hat because i think he'd benefit from regular starts. The question was then raised as to when has Rafa ever, ever, sat people down when they're in form and firing. As is the norm, a few "facts" were thrown around.

Well the "fact" is that the last time Keane scored twice, he didn't play in the next match (at least I think it's a fact as I aren't about to check it on "statinfo.com" or whatever it's called). That "fact" was why I brought it up in the first place. I was simply making the point that given we had paid 20 million quid for a striker, and now half way through thye season he is at last showing some signs of finding form, it might be a good idea to kind of leave him to it.

Now it maybe argued that Rafa's handling of Keane so far is precisely the reason why he's suddenly finding form*** but my guess is he might even concieveably have found it earlier if a) he had actually been on the pitch a bit more often and b) on the occasions he did actually score we gave him the opportunity to build some confidence. That he wasn't though, and that we didn't is a matter of fact, hence the expression of wish that we play him for a bit.

Other players which were sat down while in the midst of good form? (and we might as well stick to strikers as we can compare like for like). Well the most obvious two examples are Crouch and Kuyt. Crouch who was persevered with through a seemingly endless barren spell when he first came, eventually settled and began to score a few goals. Then he broke into the England team and went through a spell where he simply couldn't stop scoring. Headers, shots, deflections, ungainly bicycle kick type things were flying in in all directions. Her even developed his own dance to celebrate each bulging of the net as his reputation flourished. It wasn't long though before the stories of him getting "too big for his boots" began to come out (surely a comment Crouch had had to deal with throughout his career) and in the middle of the form of his life, Crouch was benched/rested/rotated on a regular basis. It wasn't long before the decision was "proven to be 100% correct", as his goals and form dried up quick smart. Football is a game of opinions, but there are a few home truths which pretty much everyone accepts. Here's two, Mike Riley gives Man Utd penalties in most matches he referees of theirs, and strikers who are sat on their erse find it hard to score goals.

***This is something of a prediction. If Keane continues in his rich scoring streak (yes I know it's only two games old but you never know) it is only a matter of time before somebody comes on here and claims that the reason he is playing so well is because of the way Rafa handled him him at the start. It may even be the case that his form over the last couple of matches is down to the "freshness" which he brought into them as a result of being "rested".

Those who don't believe me should consider that a couple of weeks ago on here somebody claimed that Steven Gerrard was only the player he was because Rafa was the manager. Anything is possible on these boards these days.

Anyway, back to the point. I hope we leave Keane in the team for a bit, I don't think he needs a rest quite so much as I think he could do with building some confidence.

by **GYBS** » Sat Dec 27, 2008 10:08 pm

stu who scored the winner against man city ? Who set up the winner in the derby and who scored the winner ?

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