Liverpool FC Forum

LFC2007 wrote:^^^ Isn't that exactly how you wish everyone would post? ^^^

Top post, agree with all of it.

Starbridge42 wrote:Although I haven't posted for some considerable time this thread has most definitely piqued my interest.

Stu, while I respect how steadfastly you maintain your assertion that a player cannot improve I find it very difficult to accept or believe.

Football is a skill-based sport.  Skills can be improved.  That is a fact, talk to anybody who has studied sports science, human movements, exercise science or anything of that nature.
Leaving aside the fact that physical attributes such as speed, power, strength, endurance, agility etc. can all be improved by training, the fact that football is skill-based means that a player can improve.  Anybody can get better, take someone who has never played the game before (who is aged say, 33, well past the age at which you assert players will improve) train them for 6 months and you will see massive improvement.

Your argument that if anyone can improve everyone would be at professional level is flawed and I'll tell you why.
The players who play at the professional level are more naturally gifted, true.  They also have better mentality and reading of the game. Hence they have a higher starting base from which to improve on.  Therefore, any person lacking that natural ability would need to train at such an extreme level to compensate for the lack of ability that their body would not be able to recover from the level of work they would be required to do.  There is also the fact that 99.9% of people lack the determination and dedication to do the training that would be required.  Attitude and mentality is absolutely crucial, especially at the top end of sport where talent is a dime-a-dozen. 
There is also the matter of diminishing returns, the better a player is the less benefit they will get from training, meaning that they need to train longer and harder to see big gains.  That's not to say that gains aren't being made, they are just less noticeable.
Furthermore, yes, football is, as you say, a team sport.  That again makes it harder to assess whether a player has improved, as if another player isn't playing well any gains our sample player has made might not be noticed (or vice versa) that doesn't mean that improvement hasn't occurred. 
There is also a multitude of other factors that will affect a perceived improvement or otherwise (as we only get to see them on game day) such as how much sleep they had the night before, any emotional issues that may be occurring at the time, whether they have taken in an alcohol in the last 36 hours, whether there is any slight illness or niggling injuries that may be hampering them at the time etc.

That is leaving aside the matter of experience, and I cannot accept your argument that a player doesn't improve through experience.  In all sports players/athletes improve with experience.  That's why spinners in cricket don't hit their peak till much later, again in cricket that's why players like Denis Lillee or Ray Lindwall weren't really at their best till later in their careers.  In rowing, James Tomkins, Xeno Muller, Steven Redgrave etc. all became better racers as they pushed on.  Duncan Free didn't win his first Olympic Gold until he was 35!  Now rowing is a very tough sport physically and at 35 you are not in the prime of your physical life. Yet he was mentally more experienced and technically better that in his youth, hence he was a better racer.

You might think that examples from other sports are irrelevant.  However, they are not, as they illustrate they way in which in all sports experience can play a huge role.

I haven't even touched on the physical side of training which is an obvious area in which a player/athlete can improve.

Stu, I respectfully disagree with your earlier posts for the reasons outlined above.

Cheers all
Sam

To an extent I can see your reservations about my points. I don't buy into the fact about other sports though, I'm not going to comment on them as they are something I know nothing about.

What I will say, is obviously, if you have someone at 33 who has never played before, then they train every day for six months then there will be a huge improvement. There was a lad I knew in School who was 11 before he ever had a proper game of footy, by 14 he was just as capable as most of the others in the play ground who didn't play for the team. The fact is though we aren't talking here about professional players. They are clearly extremes used in those examples and really do have no relivance in terms of professional footballers. How many professional players start playing at 33?

All players can only get to a certain level in terms of skill, physical attributes and mental attributes, most people can only get to a certain level in anything, work, intelligence or whatever. Thats where you're correct about desire to improve, understanding and whatever else. Its like with Gerrard now, no matter how much physical training he puts in he's not going to improve on what he is now.

For example, going off on a tangent... I play the guitar, I was as good after 1 year as I am now after 10 due to not really being that arsed anymore. That desire to improve doesn't remain the same throughout a players career and no matter how good any player is they will ALWAYS reach a plateau, after that, they will hit a downward curve. That is also a fact (especially in physical sport).

You're point about a player working on something aswell to improve and only improving in the tinyest way possible is kind of what I'm getting at. (without wording it like that) I've mentioned many times that a player by 14-15 (roughly) has already learnt their technique and their touch won't improve much from there, what I've also said is that the consistent training is to develop a consistency in what they are doing (which could be seen as the small improvement you're on about).

To be quite honest, Its a good reply and I could answer it properly had I not just worked for 14 hours solid. I'll come back to it in a few days when I feel alive and the screen isn't blurry.

(And I've had chance to think of how to word what I want to say or if I can find any more Arsene Wenger clips stating more facts...)

Starbridge42 wrote:Although I haven't posted for some considerable time this thread has most definitely piqued my interest.

Stu, while I respect how steadfastly you maintain your assertion that a player cannot improve I find it very difficult to accept or believe.

Football is a skill-based sport.  Skills can be improved.  That is a fact, talk to anybody who has studied sports science, human movements, exercise science or anything of that nature.
Leaving aside the fact that physical attributes such as speed, power, strength, endurance, agility etc. can all be improved by training, the fact that football is skill-based means that a player can improve.  Anybody can get better, take someone who has never played the game before (who is aged say, 33, well past the age at which you assert players will improve) train them for 6 months and you will see massive improvement.

Your argument that if anyone can improve everyone would be at professional level is flawed and I'll tell you why.
The players who play at the professional level are more naturally gifted, true.  They also have better mentality and reading of the game. Hence they have a higher starting base from which to improve on.  Therefore, any person lacking that natural ability would need to train at such an extreme level to compensate for the lack of ability that their body would not be able to recover from the level of work they would be required to do.  There is also the fact that 99.9% of people lack the determination and dedication to do the training that would be required.  Attitude and mentality is absolutely crucial, especially at the top end of sport where talent is a dime-a-dozen. 
There is also the matter of diminishing returns, the better a player is the less benefit they will get from training, meaning that they need to train longer and harder to see big gains.  That's not to say that gains aren't being made, they are just less noticeable.
Furthermore, yes, football is, as you say, a team sport.  That again makes it harder to assess whether a player has improved, as if another player isn't playing well any gains our sample player has made might not be noticed (or vice versa) that doesn't mean that improvement hasn't occurred. 
There is also a multitude of other factors that will affect a perceived improvement or otherwise (as we only get to see them on game day) such as how much sleep they had the night before, any emotional issues that may be occurring at the time, whether they have taken in an alcohol in the last 36 hours, whether there is any slight illness or niggling injuries that may be hampering them at the time etc.

That is leaving aside the matter of experience, and I cannot accept your argument that a player doesn't improve through experience.  In all sports players/athletes improve with experience.  That's why spinners in cricket don't hit their peak till much later, again in cricket that's why players like Denis Lillee or Ray Lindwall weren't really at their best till later in their careers.  In rowing, James Tomkins, Xeno Muller, Steven Redgrave etc. all became better racers as they pushed on.  Duncan Free didn't win his first Olympic Gold until he was 35!  Now rowing is a very tough sport physically and at 35 you are not in the prime of your physical life. Yet he was mentally more experienced and technically better that in his youth, hence he was a better racer.

You might think that examples from other sports are irrelevant.  However, they are not, as they illustrate they way in which in all sports experience can play a huge role.

I haven't even touched on the physical side of training which is an obvious area in which a player/athlete can improve.

Stu, I respectfully disagree with your earlier posts for the reasons outlined above.

Cheers all
Sam

Leonmc0708 wrote:

Fo Dne wrote:

s@int wrote:I hear that Wengers now going around saying "if you don't believe me ....just ask Stu"

Maybe I am actually Arsene Wenger

Eye Deed Newt Sea Eat

  Had to read that about 3 times before i got onto it 

Jimmy the Weasel wrote:

Owzat wrote:And for those of you who aren't so much reds, but deserve a "tar" in the middle of reds when describing you, I am joking.

Redtars?

re_TARS_ds.